The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 48 - AVS Forum
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post #1411 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Interestingly, I note that the Yamaha RX-A2040|RX-A3040 now include a user entered "on-wall|on-ceiling" parameter associated with Presence channel speakers.
_
I think that might be used when they enable Atmos later this year. From a Yamaha press release... "Yamaha will enable Dolby Atmos playback through a firmware update later this fall."

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post #1412 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 07:07 AM
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Rod,

You seem to have overlooked FilmMixer's explanation. The studios just contract for the use of the cheapest/easiest-to-use codec which provides the functionality that they need. Without the need for Atmos, that's currently DTS. When Atmos is needed, they'll contact the mixing to be done using Dolby.

Previously (probably not in this thread) Keith has mentioned two titles which he knows are being remixed in Atmos for home release. Unfortunately, I don't recall what they are.
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post #1413 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
AccuEQ. It doesn’t EQ the front speakers or the subwoofers. I’ll leave it to you to imagine how well that's going to work.

Here’s a story direct from a respected Onkyo source. The 818, which featured Audyssey's flasghip XT32, for less than $1,000, simply flew off the shelves. They couldn’t sell them fast enough. Its replacement, the 828, is sitting in warehouses on shelves groaning under their weight. Take a guess at one of the main differences between the two...
I think the TX-NR 838 will have the same fait at a little over $1,000 for 7.1 and without audyssey XT32.. I know once the TX-NR 1030 comes out the price may drop some but still no audyssey.

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post #1414 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
I know quite a few people who have to run totally EQ-less because they don't want Audyssey mucking with their fronts, I think they might very well be lined up for Onkyo then.
Audyssey has a setting called "Bypass L/R" which gives you the option of bypassing the fronts.

So I found it hard to believe that someone would pass up the choice to bypass vs the need to bypass.

Add to that the multiple mic positions and subwoofer calibration and it's a no brainer. I love my XT32.


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post #1415 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
The middle of the room is no more susceptible to this than any other listening spot. Saying the middle of the room is always a null would be like saying the middle of a swimming pool is always calm.
The middle of the room is where odd-order modes (1st, 3rd, 5th, etc) always null and even-order modes (2nd, 4th, etc) always peak. The frequency response variation is worse here than anywhere else in the room because modes are always at extremes, either peaking or nulling.




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I'm not familiar with the 38% rule and I don't doubt it, but it seems to be primarily applicable to the non-subwoofer speakers.
Odd divisions (thirds, fifths, etc) of room dimensions avoid nulls and most peaks. For example: around 1/3rd of room length, modes are much closer to each other in level (less variation) than elsewhere in the room, making it a good location for a row of seating.


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post #1416 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 08:12 AM
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While we're on the subject (off topic) how are room modes effected by speaker placement? My previous attempt at mapping them suggests you don’t need to adjust for speaker placement(not considering subs here) just put them where they sound best.
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post #1417 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 08:20 AM
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In the classic "soffit" design like the Cinemar theater, would the ceiling Atmos speakers be in the soffit area or more in the raised area of the room for a 7.1.4 setup?
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post #1418 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post
I did see a theoretical design years ago, where a speaker manufacturer would provide the intended frequency response that you would upload to your receiver and the receiver would then attempt to match this designed response. Without a specific reference to match against, you cannot be sure if you are deviating from the original intention or not. I have not been convinced by any attempt at ruler flat responses, or SMPTE curves
I think that the closest to come to that is probably the Harman Arcos system in which you actually indicate the speaker model (a Synthesis model) in the room and the unique properties of that speaker are part of the calculations for the corrections toward the target curve which is not flat, as you probably know.

Arcos description: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/Info/Story/87

Thread with target curve graphics: Target Curves
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post #1419 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I was told this week that PLIIz is dead. Gone. Ex...
Keith, You have mentioned this previously, but it is my interpretation that neither you nor the Dolby rep(s) mean this to be taken literally. Rather, and most logically, I assume that PLIIz will be obviated by Atmos once the latter becomes fully implemented in CE equipment. (Or, as you yourself have said: "I can't really see why Dolby would even continue with PLIIz once Atmos becomes widely available." [my emphasis]) In the meantime--and for the near term--PLIIz will still be very much functional, especially (but not only) for anyone who is not using an Atmos-enabled system.

Furthermore, I note that Onkyo's upcoming TX-NR3030 includes Dolby PLIIz processing in addition to Atmos. My guess is that Onkyo is allowing purchasers the option of Atmos top speakers or "traditional" PLIIz FH's as a transitional model. I am most interested in seeing what D&M's forthcoming Atmos-enabled AVR's will offer regarding use of the Height1L/R speaker connections since I have an 11.1 layout and hope to get either the X5200 or X7200 within the next year. My current plan, however, is to leave my FH's in place until I have convinced myself (through first-hand experimentation and feedback from other users) that it is worth my while to cut additional holes in my living room ceiling to accommodate the Atmos top speaker configuration--in addition to repurposing or shedding my FW's and/or SB's. For home theaters, this might be a no-brainer given the promise of Atmos enhancements, but for those of us who have to make do with a multi-purpose room for our main listening area it can be a major commitment once we start installing in-ceiling speakers.
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post #1420 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It matters not one jot what the speaker manufacturer has 'fine tuned' in an anechoic chamber. Put that speaker in a room and the room has modes, reflections and so on which all interact with the speakers. All different for different rooms. There is no escaping that. Of course, it is possible to treat the room acoustically and even to purpose-build it. Like they do in Hollywood. And then they add EQ to get rid of the remaining room-induced distortions. It is room EQ, not speaker EQ we are discussing.
It will be speaker EQ, you sacrifice the first arriving on-axis sound to correct room behavior. Which satisfies a microphone more than the ear.

I didn't say anechoic chamber, you made that up.

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post #1421 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Sargent View Post
...My home is typical stick built construction. I have a projector mounted from the ceiling. If I add Atmos top speakers, and mount them from the ceiling, will the vibrations from the speakers cause the projector to vibrate? Any shake would be noticeable (I guess).

So, will I need to do structural re-enforcing at the same time?
It's possible but not likely.

If it is an issue I'd tackle it by isolating the speakers and/or projector (the former likely being easier) by using an elastomer (rubber, neoprene, etc) in the mounting scheme to prevent hard contact between the speaker and the wall/ceiling.

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Room gain is caused by a sound wave trying to reflect off a boundary and it can't because the same wave is pushing it back into the boundary. This is why room gain is strongly a function of wavelength. Longer wavelengths will push for a longer period of time and hence produce a larger amplitude before the wave can bounce.
I don't think I agree with that explanation.

Nothing stops the reflection, as sound waves traveling at 600+ mph are still hitting the walls.

The wavelength is long compared to the room dimensions so that the phase is similar everywhere in the room at once, or in the extreme of a sealed room and close to 0 Hz, the room pressure rises and falls with driver excursion.

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Nice pic's.

Any idea where the line of flat response is?

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post #1422 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post
Audyssey has a setting called "Bypass L/R" which gives you the option of bypassing the fronts.

So I found it hard to believe that someone would pass up the choice to bypass vs the need to bypass.

Add to that the multiple mic positions and subwoofer calibration and it's a no brainer. I love my XT32.
Great.

Also for stereo music?

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post #1423 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Keith, You have mentioned this previously, but it is my interpretation that neither you nor the Dolby rep(s) mean this to be taken literally. Rather, and most logically, I assume that PLIIz will be obviated by Atmos once the latter becomes fully implemented in CE equipment. (Or, as you yourself have said: "I can't really see why Dolby would even continue with PLIIz once Atmos becomes widely available." [my emphasis]) In the meantime--and for the near term--PLIIz will still be very much functional, especially (but not only) for anyone who is not using an Atmos-enabled system.
The way I read it is that saying "PLIIz is gone" doesn't imply that you can't get upmixing just because you don't have Atmos speaker locations. Rather, it's that instead of offering separate products like PLIIx for surr.backs and PLIIz for front heights, it will be an "integrated" upmix algorithm that is scalable. I think Roger said you can view it as the next step in the evolution of PLII.

As an example, DTS used to have Neo:6 which competed with PLII for upmixing to 5.1/6.1/7.1 layouts. When Neo:X came out with the ability to scale up to 11 channels (as implemented, my understanding is that it's scalable to mix even more than that) they didn't keep Neo:6 on the receivers. It was all just called Neo:X. I have a 5.1 setup and when I engage the DTS upmix for a 2ch source, it still says "DTS Neo:X" on my display, not "Neo:6".

So in that regard, I theorize that Dolby XXXX (whatever it's called) will appropriately scale to your speaker locations. If you have a traditional 7.1 setup, it will scale a 2ch or 5.1ch source to add surr.backs just like PLIIx did. If you have front heights, it will operate like PLIIz did. And if you have top speakers, it will scale appropriately for that. So it's not that current PLIIz users will be kicked to the curb with a couple of paperweights mounted high on the front wall, but the new Dolby XXXX will just supercede the previous PLIIz.

That's just my theory, I have nothing concrete to back it up.

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post #1424 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
...Which satisfies a microphone more than the ear.
Not necessarily.

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post #1425 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Great.

Also for stereo music?
Audyssey doesn't care how many speakers you have. If you engage the "Bypass" EQ setting it will EQ all the speakers EXCEPT the front L/R mains, regardless of whether you are listening to stereo, 5.1 or 11.1 output.

Note that Audyssey doesn't "approve" of this setting, it was a concession to the mfgr (I believe only D&M products offer this?) so obviously there IS a market for people who don't want the EQ to "touch" their precious front mains.

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post #1426 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sargent View Post
I don't think anyone has asked this, so I'll lead off.


My home is typical stick built construction. I have a projector mounted from the ceiling. If I add Atmos top speakers, and mount them from the ceiling, will the vibrations from the speakers cause the projector to vibrate? Any shake would be noticeable (I guess).


This comes up because in my old days I had a 40" RPTV and the sub would (occasionally) cause the screen to flex. You could see it move, but it didn't make the picture much worse. But a projector moving even a fraction of an inch will cause the image to move considerably more.


So, will I need to do structural re-enforcing at the same time?


Thanks,
Mike
Doubt it. The auxiliary speakers don't dig deep enough IMO to cause your room to shake!


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post #1427 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The middle of the room is where odd-order modes (1st, 3rd, 5th, etc) always null and even-order modes (2nd, 4th, etc) always peak. The frequency response variation is worse here than anywhere else in the room because modes are always at extremes, either peaking or nulling.


Something I'm curious about -- is that modal pattern irrespective of subwoofer position. Or does it assume the subwoofer is at a boundary? It would seem to me (without having thought it through completely) that the location from which the bass waves propogate would affect the distribution of modes relative to the room boundaries.

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post #1428 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post
However you are always left with the concern, even with room EQ for modes, that you have unintentionally modified the natural and intentional *by design* humps and bumps on the frequency response of your speakers which give it, its unique character.
I’d hate to have a speaker that had a 'unique character'. I want total neutrality and transparency not any sort of added 'character'. I realise this is probably an unattainable goal, but to deliberately choose a speaker that has had 'humps and bumps' added, on purpose, to the FR, is anathema to me.


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post #1429 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post
I don't see how those address my question. That Dolby demo was with speakers with top firing drivers built in by the sounds of things. Unless I misread things somewhere, perhaps earlier in the thread that an option to purchase separate top firing drivers for existing speakers will be made available, it's those items I'm questioning, those weren't used in that demo. Also Dolby wouldn't even give him the name of the speakers so we are supposed to take their word these are the affordable options soon to be made available to the public? They may have looked modest but could have costed thousands of dollars a pair or even each, we just don't know, but that's besides the point as that's not what I'm asking about.

What I'm getting at is if these separate modules will exist, not everyone has large towers as main L/R speakers with flat tops let alone similarly sized surround speakers. So lets assume smaller sized bookshelf speakers for mains and surrounds for the mment. What if these modules have a larger base than the tops of the mains and surrounds? When placed on top of the speakers the module will potentially stick out over all 4 edges and this will compromise the speakers performance, that is the mains and surrounds. This is what I am thinking about. Again if I misread things and there will be no such thing as top firing Atmos add on modules then ignore my question as it's irrelevant.
My gut feeling is that these up-firing modules will have so little bass response that they shouldn't adversely affect the performance of the speaker on which they are sitting. If they cross over in the 120-200Hz range, is it going to be any more detrimental to the speaker below them than putting a decorative flower pot or candle on top for aesthetics?

Or are you referring less to vibration and more to "interference" between the lower frequency parts which will propogate more directly towards the listener?

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post #1430 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Rod#S View Post

I suppsoe that assumes everything going to the theater will have an Amos soundtrack and/or Atmos sundtracks will be made available on Blu-rays even if the theatrical version did not include it. That's the only way I could see a need to shift things to TrueHD from Master Audio and I just don't see that happening, at least not any time soon.
I understand that you believe there will be no shift to TrueHD, despite everything that has been posted by industry insiders who believe the exact opposite, and for the reasons I have given you. As you can’t be shifted, all I can say is we’ll have to wait and see who turns out to be right.


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This also assumes dts does not alter the lossless Master Audio codec to somehow embed the Atmos mix..
You think Dolby will allow their competitors to do this? Really?

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or simply come out of the gate with their object based format for the home.
Yes, they may do this eventually. Eventually being the word. Armos is here and now.


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They obviously have it for cinema.
Can you name some of the movies that have been released so far with a DTS object-based mix?

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I suspect Atmos soundtracks in theaters will continue to be the minority for quite some time to come,
Atmos takeup surpassed Dolby 5.1'sa takeup in the first year of both. So there is every reason to believe that it will actually succeed even more rapidly than 5.1 did. Stats on Dolby's website.

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perhaps long enough until we need to rethink the existing Blu-ray format in the event 4K starts to happen.
Most people seem to believe that there will never be 4k Blurays - that 4k content will be delivered by other means.

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I suppsoe then it might become a decision of do the studios continue to offer physical media or move to downloads but I may be jumping the gun on that, no argument there. Until that happens Atmos may end up being used primarily as a matrix system as you point out PLIIz is now dead.
Atmos upmixing will obviously, initially at least, be used more than pure Atmos, simply for the reason that most of us have far more legacy Blurays than we have Atmos blurays. So what?


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post #1431 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:30 AM
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this is all making my head spin I may just upgrade to the TX-NR929 and run 11.2 with the aid of my external amp to run wides, once all the atmos stuff is released and the bugs fixed i'll retink it then but atmos looks to be a great thing. like when 3D first started to hit the market back in 2010 TV's were not as nice as the more recent models, even though 3D has kind of taken a back seat check out this article
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/145168-3d-tv-is-dead

I think Atmos will have a greater impact on the veiwing enviroment. i can't wait to be enveloped in 7.4.4 I think 3D sound will be more pleasing.

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post #1432 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Rod,

You seem to have overlooked FilmMixer's explanation. The studios just contract for the use of the cheapest/easiest-to-use codec which provides the functionality that they need. Without the need for Atmos, that's currently DTS. When Atmos is needed, they'll contact the mixing to be done using Dolby.

Previously (probably not in this thread) Keith has mentioned two titles which he knows are being remixed in Atmos for home release. Unfortunately, I don't recall what they are.
Chicago and Die Hard. Nobody can surely believe that these will be released theatrically, so it seems that they are being remixed for Bluray release.


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post #1433 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Keith, You have mentioned this previously, but it is my interpretation that neither you nor the Dolby rep(s) mean this to be taken literally. Rather, and most logically, I assume that PLIIz will be obviated by Atmos once the latter becomes fully implemented in CE equipment. (Or, as you yourself have said: "I can't really see why Dolby would even continue with PLIIz once Atmos becomes widely available." [my emphasis]) In the meantime--and for the near term--PLIIz will still be very much functional, especially (but not only) for anyone who is not using an Atmos-enabled system.
I can only say what I was told. I was told, with no equivocation, that PLIIz would no longer be offered. I assume that upmixing to Atmos will be a better option.

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Furthermore, I note that Onkyo's upcoming TX-NR3030 includes Dolby PLIIz processing in addition to Atmos. My guess is that Onkyo is allowing purchasers the option of Atmos top speakers or "traditional" PLIIz FH's as a transitional model. I am most interested in seeing what D&M's forthcoming Atmos-enabled AVR's will offer regarding use of the Height1L/R speaker connections since I have an 11.1 layout and hope to get either the X5200 or X7200 within the next year. My current plan, however, is to leave my FH's in place until I have convinced myself (through first-hand experimentation and feedback from other users) that it is worth my while to cut additional holes in my living room ceiling to accommodate the Atmos top speaker configuration--in addition to repurposing or shedding my FW's and/or SB's. For home theaters, this might be a no-brainer given the promise of Atmos enhancements, but for those of us who have to make do with a multi-purpose room for our main listening area it can be a major commitment once we start installing in-ceiling speakers.
No arguing with that spec you pointed to. It is the direct opposite though of what Onkyo themselves told me this week. I wish I'd had the info you posted when I was with them!


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post #1434 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
It will be speaker EQ, you sacrifice the first arriving on-axis sound to correct room behavior. Which satisfies a microphone more than the ear.

I didn't say anechoic chamber, you made that up.
It's where most speaker manufacturers tune their designs. Regardless, once any speaker is placed in a room, you can forget the FR the manufacturers were looking at in whatever room they used, anechoic or not. The EQ we are discussing as useful or not is room EQ not speaker EQ.


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post #1435 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:44 AM
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[quote=kbarnes701;25845313]
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However you are always left with the concern, even with room EQ for modes, that you have unintentionally modified the natural and intentional *by design* humps and bumps on the frequency response of your speakers which give it, its unique character. /QUOTE]

I’d hate to have a speaker that had a 'unique character'. I want total neutrality and transparency not any sort of added 'character'. I realise this is probably an unattainable goal, but to deliberately choose a speaker that has had 'humps and bumps' added, on purpose, to the FR, is anathema to me.
I fully respect that viewpoint but I don't think it's a common one. Well think of it this way. "Most" people go to a Hi-Fi store and demo various speakers before choosing them. You would normally take a batch of CDs to audition with. Even if you are spending 10,000 dollars on the higher end Kef models and compare to other 10,000 speakers, they will all sound different. Normally one would choose the one you like the sound of. You don't go there with measuring equipment and see which one is flattest! People used to say Tannoy were warmer, Kef was brighter etc ...as if there was a "house" sound that manufacturers aim for. So if you want to "delete" that and flatten it all out, of course that is perfectly good thing to do. All I was getting at, was that it sounds a bit odd, to audition speakers, choose the one we like the best, then go home and turn it into something different...and that's what the default Audyssey calibration will do.


We see perhaps even more violent sound signatures with headphones. Compare the Audeze warm hugging sound vs the Sennheiser HD800 bright and clean signature. Both are very expensive, both are very highly regarded, yet neither are neutral.

Last edited by JonStatt; 07-18-2014 at 09:49 AM.
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post #1436 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Regardless, once any speaker is placed in a room, you can forget the FR the manufacturers were looking at in whatever room they used, anechoic or not. The EQ we are discussing as useful or not is room EQ not speaker EQ.
I reserve the right to have a difference in opinion about that.

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post #1437 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The middle of the room is where odd-order modes (1st, 3rd, 5th, etc) always null and even-order modes (2nd, 4th, etc) always peak. The frequency response variation is worse here than anywhere else in the room because modes are always at extremes, either peaking or nulling.




Odd divisions (thirds, fifths, etc) of room dimensions avoid nulls and most peaks. For example: around 1/3rd of room length, modes are much closer to each other in level (less variation) than elsewhere in the room, making it a good location for a row of seating.



In my original post of why the misunderstanding about the middle of the room occurs, I noted that writers pick wavelengths that fit evenly within a rooms dimension for illustrative purposes. This is an example of what I was referring to. Notice how every wavelength can perfectly fit within the room dimension. Notice how all the wavelengths peak against the boundary. This done for ease of understanding. This is not a real world situation.
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post #1438 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 09:54 AM
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Odd divisions (thirds, fifths, etc) of room dimensions avoid nulls and most peaks. For example: around 1/3rd of room length, modes are much closer to each other in level (less variation) than elsewhere in the room, making it a good location for a row of seating.


That's where my false back wall filled with insulations stands. Very good illustration. Thanks.

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post #1439 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Nice pic's.
You can generate your own by downloading Harman's room mode calculator for free.

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...ID=Calculators

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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Any idea where the line of flat response is?
Outdoors. If you're indoors, room boundaries are going to result in modal problems. The best you can hope to do is use placement (subs AND seating) to minimize as many problems as you can, leaving as little as possible for equalization to do later on.



Imagine the example above is a SPL map of the modes for your room's length. If your couch (outlined in green) is 2/3rds room length from the front wall, then the 1st, 2nd and 4th length modes will all be around the same level. The 3rd length mode (in red) will be peaking.

But, since everybody on the couch is the same distance from the front wall, the peak will be the same in all seats. If you move an Audyssey mic around your couch, it will see the same peak in all seats. A single band of PEQ can pull down that peak, fixing the problem in all seats.

A simple example of how placement can make things much easier for equalization (automated or manual).

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post #1440 of 8633 Old 07-18-2014, 10:06 AM
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I'm not implying it, I am telling you out loud. The 'industry' doesn't care at all about which codec it uses. FilmMixer has already confirmed that the studios are under no contracts with DTS or Dolby for their BD codec format choice, and Roger Dressler (IIRC) has confirmed that the studios don't pay license fees for the use of these codecs. FilmMixer (IIRC) has also said that the studios use DTS-HD MA simply because it makes their workflow somewhat easier, under the status quo. Once they are faced with a choice of releasing content that includes the latest format (Atmos) and thus using TrueHD, or releasing content mastered in DTS-HD MA and therefore NOT being able to release Atmos content at all, it will be a pretty straightforward choice.

So yes, there is a huge reason for them to switch: unless they do they won't be able to release Atmos content.
The potential problem I see coming is that some studios may not give a rat's ass if they deliver Atmos content or not. They're even happy to take a 7.1 native track and dumb it down to 5.1. Two are Warner Brothers and Sony.

Little to no content... and these Atmos enabled devices just sit there like bricks except for status quo releases.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 07-18-2014 at 10:13 AM.
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