The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 52 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1531 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I don't know what kind of magic your system has... but there is no way a normal 5.1 system can recreate point-source overhead effects the same way Atmos can. My Paradigm Studio system is pretty darn good, but it cannot recreate something like Gravity's Atmos mix right now. It's impossible.

Best wait until you can hear home Atmos for yourself in a decent demo.
It's a damn good 5.1 system. I get the rain falling down from the ceiling and over head fly overs. So nothing new there.
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post #1532 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I don't know what kind of magic your system has... but there is no way a normal 5.1 system can recreate point-source overhead effects the same way Atmos can. My Paradigm Studio system is pretty darn good, but it cannot recreate something like Gravity's Atmos mix right now. It's impossible.

Best wait until you can hear home Atmos for yourself in a decent demo.
My local newly built cinema has the full Atmos gamut and I've commented before that yes its the best sound I've heard in a cinema ( not just the mix, which was great but the bass was the more noticeable improvement) but its still a better experience at home with my now plane Jane vanilla 5.1 . My dipole/bi-poles are mounted high and directly to the sides and gravity sounded just fine if not spectacular, not to mention other well done mixes the likes of rain ,over head fly by's and other effects. I'm sure Atmos will be great once properly setup but the jury is indeed still out as to the benefits at home in the various rooms it will be in baring proper setup of course.

but to say there is noway a 5.1 system can create a point source effect has more to do with proper system setup than anything else. There is a good reason why 2/ch is still around
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Last edited by audiofan1; 07-19-2014 at 12:40 PM.
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post #1533 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by nucky View Post
It's a damn good 5.1 system. I get the rain falling down from the ceiling and over head fly overs. So nothing new there.
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
My local newly built cinema has the full Atmos gamut and I've commented before that yes its the best sound I've heard in a cinema ( not just the mix, which was great but the bass was the more noticeable improvement) but its still a better experience at home with my now plane Jane vanilla 5.1 . My dipole/bi-poles are mounted high and directly to the sides and gravity sounded just fine if not spectacular, not to mention other well done mixes the likes of rain ,over head fly by's and other effects. I'm sure Atmos will be great once properly setup but the jury is indeed still out as to the benefits at home in the various rooms it will be in baring proper setup of course.

but to say there is noway a 5.1 system can create a point source effect has more to do with proper system setup than anything else. There is a good reason why 2/ch is still around
Also, don't discount the brain's ability to steer the (perception of) sound to where you expect it to come from (e.g. the "ventriloquist effect").
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post #1534 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 01:00 PM
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The BEST example in my collection I can go straight to in my collection is prison break series 3 when they are digging upwards out of a tunnel and the prop breaks I don't know how my system does it but it really sounds like there is VOG speakers installed


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post #1535 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesvicky View Post
The BEST example in my collection I can go straight to in my collection is prison break series 3 when they are digging upwards out of a tunnel and the prop breaks I don't know how my system does it but it really sounds like there is VOG speakers installed
A phantom image can be good, no doubt, but it cannot replace having a physical speaker where the sound is supposed to come from. Hence the superiority of a format like Atmos.

If they keep the spirit of some of these newer Disney films' Atmos mixes in the home versions then when someone speaks above you it will come out of the ceiling speakers, for instance.

Or in Transformers 4 (cruddy movie that it is) when they have sound effects literally fly upward into the ceiling, you'll be glad you have real ceiling speakers.

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post #1536 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
Dolby wins at cinema presentation via ticket sales.
DTS wins at home presentation via bluray/DVD/etc
I think it has always been like this.
Interesting. Thx for sharing.
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post #1537 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesvicky View Post
The BEST example in my collection I can go straight to in my collection is prison break series 3 when they are digging upwards out of a tunnel and the prop breaks I don't know how my system does it but it really sounds like there is VOG speakers installed


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I agree get out your Predator blu-ray when they are being dropped into the jungle you can clearly hear the helicopter overhead and listen as it flies off into the distance you would swear it hovers over head circles and flies off into the distance. Not sure if my brain presived it because i don't have over head speakers. I have onkyo Tx-nr 818 running FRONTS, CENTER, FRONT highs, wides, and surrounds with an onkyo m-5010 amp driving my wides.

My main setup Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle/ Samsung PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Bic Acoustech speakers,MICCA M-8S FH/TM on wall / in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs
10' X 15' DEN Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos / Acoustic Audio 151B Indoor/Outdoor Speakers top middle on Ceiling Speakers/ Samsung PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray /

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post #1538 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 01:53 PM
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Thx for sharing.

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post #1539 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
I agree get out your Predator blu-ray when they are being dropped into the jungle you can clearly hear the helicopter overhead and listen as it flies off into the distance you would swear it hovers over head circles and flies off into the distance. Not sure if my brain presived it because i don't have over head speakers. I have onkyo Tx-nr 818 running FRONTS, CENTER, FRONT highs, wides, and surrounds with an onkyo m-5010 amp driving my wides.
Another example, overhead footsteps clomping above deck in Master & Commander. If you don't hear this effect, work on room set-up and treatments before kicking it up to Atmos.
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post #1540 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Another example, overhead footsteps clomping above deck in Master & Commander. If you don't hear this effect, work on room set-up and treatments before kicking it up to Atmos.
+1

My main setup Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle/ Samsung PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Bic Acoustech speakers,MICCA M-8S FH/TM on wall / in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs
10' X 15' DEN Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos / Acoustic Audio 151B Indoor/Outdoor Speakers top middle on Ceiling Speakers/ Samsung PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray /
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post #1541 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 02:25 PM
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I'm hoping atmos will be a bigger jump then what I have when I added highs and wides to my 5.2 set-up running highs and wides it does add fullness when listening in audyssey DSX Mode, but it wasn't a dramatic change but it does fill the front sound stage nicely.

My main setup Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle/ Samsung PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Bic Acoustech speakers,MICCA M-8S FH/TM on wall / in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs
10' X 15' DEN Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos / Acoustic Audio 151B Indoor/Outdoor Speakers top middle on Ceiling Speakers/ Samsung PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray /
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post #1542 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
I'm hoping atmos will be a bigger jump then what I have when I added highs and wides to my 5.2 set-up running highs and wides does add fullness when listening in audyssey DSX Mode, but it wasn't a dramatic change but it does fill the front sound stage nicely.
Of course it will. Atmos uses discrete audio information with both channel beds and metadata infused audio object files. DTS Neo:X, DSX, and Prologic IIz are matrix derived post-processing algorithms and do not create new channels. They just artificially expand what's already there.

Some of this posturing that you don't need Atmos (or object audio) to create this or that effect seems to show a lack of understanding of how Atmos works.
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post #1543 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Of course it will. Atmos uses discrete audio information with both channel beds and metadata infused audio object files. DTS Neo:X, DSX, and Prologic IIz are matrix derived post-processing algorithms and do not create new channels. They just artificially expand what's already there.

Some of this posturing that you don't need Atmos (or object audio) to create this or that effect seems to show a lack of understanding of how Atmos works.
Ouch thanks for pointing that out. I do understand.

My main setup Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle/ Samsung PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Bic Acoustech speakers,MICCA M-8S FH/TM on wall / in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs
10' X 15' DEN Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos / Acoustic Audio 151B Indoor/Outdoor Speakers top middle on Ceiling Speakers/ Samsung PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray /
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post #1544 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 02:43 PM
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Ouch thanks for pointing that out. I do understand.
When you mentioned you were "hoping" it will be an improvement over those current sound modes, it seemed to me like maybe there was some doubt on your part. Sorry to misread into it.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1545 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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IIRC, MultEQxt32 keeps a pretty light touch on EQ above the mids. Correct?
No, XT32 does also equalize heavily at higher frequencies. I probably still have old measurements that show just that. Let me know if you're interested and I'll check.

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post #1546 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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As you all can see I couldn't wait for Dolby to release their white paper on proper placement. I read all previous posts about the 1/3 Dolby rule and interpreted the Denon picture.
The front ceiling speakers are placed at 36 degrees while the rear ones are on top to slightly behind. They are all 1/3 to the inside and the front ones are right between the Front LCR and the Mid surrounds. I guess I averaged out all wisdom here. I can still adjust the speaker angles if needed. The current front height speakers are still in place for future use. In september after the Denon 5200 arrives I will be able to tell you guys how it sounds. In January I will replace the unit for the 7200. Hopefully in the future I will be able to use 9.2 with FHeights for Neo:X and PLIIz and 7.2.4 with Atmos and obviously some extra amps. The wait begins
Uuh, mounting the top surround like this in that kind of ceiling is probably not a good idea. Did you measure the in-room response?
By the way, is there no seat in the sweet spot??

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post #1547 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
No, XT32 does also equalize heavily at higher frequencies. I probably still have old measurements that show just that. Let me know if you're interested and I'll check.
Question for you Markus: Sound wise (listening/watching to a great Blu-ray movie, or a well recorded CD - ECM record label or Channel Classics), Audyssey MultEQ XT32 versus Audyssey MultEQ XT - In percentage, roughly, your own evaluation; one over the other?

I.e.; XT32 is 90% great (sound quality), and XT is 80% great. ...Overall, all across the range, full audio spectrum.

* Everything else being the exact same: Room, speakers, subwoofers, ...all that jazz.

_____________


And! What brand of AV receiver (or SSP) are you going to get for Dolby Atmos?

Last edited by NorthSky; 07-19-2014 at 10:28 PM. Reason: XT
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post #1548 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 06:19 PM
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Are you planning on putting your overheads in line with the front and left main speakers like in the diagram?

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It's mostly conjecture at this point until we get more definitive guidance from Dolby and/or the AVR manufacturers, but it's my guess that having other speakers at the same elevation as the Atmos tops will be strongly discouraged. Otherwise, as you are probably already aware, the recommended front-to-back positioning for the tops seems to have the FH's slightly forward of the mains and the RH's behind the MLP.

I'm in an even more compromised position because my L/R surrounds are currently in-ceiling speakers (necessitated by the fact that I can't run speaker wire to the middle of the living room); OTOH, they happen to be pretty much ideally placed for Atmos RH's at about 110° from, and slightly to the L/R of, the MLP. If I want to switch to an Atmos configuration (7.1.4) I currently anticipate having to repurpose the aforementioned surrounds as Atmos RH's, my SB's as surrounds, and replacing my wall-mounted FH's with in-ceiling speakers identical to the RH's. My current SB bookies would then have to serve as surrounds although not ideally placed just behind and slightly above ear level of the MLP. I would probably have to forfeit any SB's, but I'm hoping the Denon X5200/7200 will allow me to keep my floorstanding FW's in lieu of the SB's in the 7.1.4--otherwise I would be down to 5.1.4.

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post #1549 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SubSolar View Post
Are you planning on putting your overheads in line with the front and left main speakers like in the diagram?
Short answer: Yes, roughly two to three feet forward of the fronts.

Long answer: I will line them up with the current in-ceiling SL/R (to be repurposed as RH's) which are roughly (within a few inches) in line with the fronts (they are symmetrical to the loveseat just in front of them which represents the MLP and which in turn is in line with the fireplace behind it). For room layout reasons the fronts are slightly akilter from that reference point.

Once I get the X5200 or X7200, and if I decide to utilize Atmos (most likely) over 11.1, I plan to swap out my current wall-mounted front heights for in-ceilings identical to those in the rear. At least that's my thinking at this juncture, but I don't plan on cutting any more holes in my living room ceiling until there is more definitive information available and I have had a chance to test out various configurations in my home with at least a 5.1.2 set-up. I'm also a bit leery of jumping the gun before DTS has unveiled what we can expect in the way of competing MDA technology. It's one thing to move around or swap out speakers or add to the mix; it's quite another to do intrusive installs in the home that may be obviated by something newer and better within one year or so. I want to wait as long as I can hold out before jumping in with both feet.

Aw hell, who am I kidding? I'll probably be chopping up my ceiling the day after my new AVR is delivered.
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post #1550 of 28054 Old 07-19-2014, 08:36 PM
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Don't you want to have all the speakers mounted so you're good to go the day your AVR arrives? C'mon, get to it.
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post #1551 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 12:26 AM
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Will/should voices follow the actors movement on screen better/more specific to the location of their mouths with object based audio?
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post #1552 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Uuh, mounting the top surround like this in that kind of ceiling is probably not a good idea. Did you measure the in-room response?
By the way, is there no seat in the sweet spot??

After the eight point Audyssey run, all positions sound the same. Those two feet don't make a difference to my ears.


Why would this not be a good idea?
The speakers are direct beam and they are below the lowest ceiling surface.


Time will tell. Obviously Atmos speakers wouldn't work with this celing.
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post #1553 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 02:07 AM
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Regarding receivers and room/speaker EQ.....


Onkyo say clearly on their website that they bypass the front speakers for AccuEQ. There are references in this thread that it also bypasses the sub. Where is this information coming from as I can't find a reference. Also, it was mentioned on the NR838 thread that there is some kind of user adjustment possible after EQ. On an 838 at least, there is no such obvious adjustment available....does it require pro software and a USB/RS-232 link?


With regards to future receivers this September from Denon etc that have Audyssey, am I right to understand that although they will have Atmos onboard they will not have a new version of Audssey thus rendering them potentially limited in use (e.g. not EQ atmos speakers) for Atmos deployments?


I don't know what it is with technology releases lately, but they feel very poorly coordinated. For example the number of people who have bought 4K televisions without HDMI2.0/HDCP2.2 who do not realise when Blu-ray 4K comes out they will be useless other than for camcorders (or the Sony media player if it's a Sony TV and you are in the US).
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post #1554 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by brwsaw View Post
Will/should voices follow the actors movement on screen better/more specific to the location of their mouths with object based audio?
Not sure that's a good idea.... They won't know where the actor is in your room, if he's on a small tv or a very large screen.

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post #1555 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post
Regarding receivers and room/speaker EQ.....

With regards to future receivers this September from Denon etc that have Audyssey, am I right to understand that although they will have Atmos onboard they will not have a new version of Audssey thus rendering them potentially limited in use (e.g. not EQ atmos speakers) for Atmos deployments?
I don't see how you arrive at this conclusion. Without specific information from the AVR manufacturers we don't know yet exactly how Atmos at home will operate, but Audyssey MultEQ already detects and EQ's each speaker connected to the receiver's main zone speaker posts. Since the Atmos speakers would be fed through the AVR's Height1 and Height2 posts, my assumption is that those speakers would be EQ'd in similar fashion to any others. If not, then it would presumably be an omission by design for whatever reason. My $0.02.
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post #1556 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post
With regards to future receivers this September from Denon etc that have Audyssey, am I right to understand that although they will have Atmos onboard they will not have a new version of Audssey thus rendering them potentially limited in use (e.g. not EQ atmos speakers) for Atmos deployments?
Audyssey has always been able to measure any speakers used in the main zone from 2-13 depending on the model of AVR being used as will continue to be the case with the D&M 2014 models as well. D&M has specifically added 2 additional processors (4 total) to accommodate the additional processing power required to use Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + Atmos.

--------
2015 Denon AVR thread ----> http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...dcp-2-2-a.html

Think your AVR is defective? Check the Owner's manual and do a factory reset 4-5 times if necessary.
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post #1557 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
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Will/should voices follow the actors movement on screen better/more specific to the location of their mouths with object based audio?
Channel based audio has allowed for that up to this point.... the amount of front speakers doesn't automatically increase when using an object based solution in the home...

It's also sometimes harder to do properly since the location of the LCR speakers can vary so widely from setup to setup.... not to mention when the aspect ration changes (in a properly setup cinema the LR are on the edges or just outside the edges, in scope they are on the LR side..

Regardless, there are many things that dictate whether or not panning dialog is a good idea, or warranted.

Many times when dealing with location recordings, the amount of ambient noise, overlapping dialog, movement, etc. makes it impossible to do so without creating other issues.

Sometimes the way the picture is edited doesn't allow for it even when the quality of the recordings would allow for such things...

All that being said, I'm hearing more and more films with panned dialog.... however, as I said, it's not based on the new availability of objects to do so.
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post #1558 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Question for you Markus: Sound wise (listening/watching to a great Blu-ray movie, or a well recorded CD - ECM record label or Channel Classics), Audyssey MultEQ XT32 versus Audyssey MultEQ XT - In percentage, roughly, your own evaluation; one over the other?

I.e.; XT32 is 90% great (sound quality), and XT is 80% great. ...Overall, all across the range, full audio spectrum.

* Everything else being the exact same: Room, speakers, subwoofers, ...all that jazz.

_____________


And! What brand of AV receiver (or SSP) are you going to get for Dolby Atmos?
I think neither XT32 nor XT do it right. Sure they work as designed but in my opinion they do things that shouldn't be done. Audyssey room correction even may sound good but "a false premise implies any proposition, false or true".
XT32 might work reasonably good in larger rooms but not so much in smaller ones. XT overcorrects at higher frequencies but doesn't have enough frequency resolution at low frequencies.
My recommendation: Use XT32 if you're looking for an easy to use, fully automated tool, stay away from XT and lower versions of Audyssey.

Regarding Atmos, I haven't decided yet. The cheapest one with useful PEQ (or better*) that can do 5.x.4 will suffice.

* If Pioneer would allow the use of user generated FIR filters, this would be a dream come true.

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Last edited by markus767; 07-20-2014 at 10:46 AM.
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post #1559 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 10:22 AM
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Of course it will. Atmos uses discrete audio information with both channel beds and metadata infused audio object files. DTS Neo:X, DSX, and Prologic IIz are matrix derived post-processing algorithms and do not create new channels. They just artificially expand what's already there.

Some of this posturing that you don't need Atmos (or object audio) to create this or that effect seems to show a lack of understanding of how Atmos works.
All I was trying to say about atmos is that i totally understand how it works, and I'm excited as well, let's hope things move faster then past upgrades. like blu-ray verses HD that went on for what seemed forever.....
Then came 3D I upgraded everything and jumped right in but 3D content was lacking and it seemed again forever before you could start buying maybe 3 New blue-ray discs a year...
Then 4K comes along I'm not jumping in there yet....
So I'm excited that Atmos is coming and Dolby Atmos discs are coming late this year but how many will there be????? So these new Atmos receivers will they simulate high ceiling content ???? Till we have a big enough collection of atmos discs. I'm hoping that there will maybe be like a cloud that you'll be able to stream from. Forget broadcast getting on board fast look how long it took for them to broadcast in HD once alot of us had a HD TV which seemed for years and you know the rest of the story.

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post #1560 of 28054 Old 07-20-2014, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Onkyo say clearly on their website that they bypass the front speakers for AccuEQ. There are references in this thread that it also bypasses the sub.
So Onkyo thinks that digital room correction isn't desirable anymore with the advent of Atmos? Reminds me of another company that likes to turn hardware/software limitations into "deliberate design choices". That company's name starts with E and ends in motiva.
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Last edited by markus767; 07-20-2014 at 10:49 AM.
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