The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 53 - AVS Forum
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post #1561 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
So I'm excited that Atmos is coming and Dolby Atmos discs are coming late this year but how many will there be????? So these new Atmos receivers will they simulate high ceiling content ????
I think it's safe to assume that as the fall approaches, and studios are releasing their summer films, there should be no reason to exclude Atmos...

As far as studios going back into their catalogs, I'm sure CEDIA will hold the answer for that.

I've heard the up mixing.. it's quite good.

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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
Till we have a big enough collection of atmos discs. I'm hoping that there will maybe be like a cloud that you'll be able to stream from. Forget broadcast getting on board fast look how long it took for them to broadcast in HD once alot of us had a HD TV which seemed for years and you know the rest of the story.
Netflix has shown a penchant for moving forward with 4k... since they support DD+, I suspect they will also be one of the first to stream Atmos.. same goes for the consoles and other streaming solutions that support the codec..

I don't think it's going to be such a long wait...
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post #1562 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
So these new Atmos receivers will they simulate high ceiling content ????
There will be upmixing for legacy content.
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
I'm hoping that there will maybe be like a cloud that you'll be able to stream from.
Dolby mentioned a month ago that Atmos soundtracks would be available via streaming.

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post #1563 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post
Regarding receivers and room/speaker EQ.....


1. Onkyo say clearly on their website that they bypass the front speakers for AccuEQ. There are references in this thread that it also bypasses the sub. Where is this information coming from as I can't find a reference. Also, it was mentioned on the NR838 thread that there is some kind of user adjustment possible after EQ. On an 838 at least, there is no such obvious adjustment available....does it require pro software and a USB/RS-232 link?


2. With regards to future receivers this September from Denon etc that have Audyssey, am I right to understand that although they will have Atmos onboard they will not have a new version of Audyssey thus rendering them potentially limited in use (e.g. not EQ Atmos speakers) for Atmos deployments?


3. I don't know what it is with technology releases lately, but they feel very poorly coordinated. For example the number of people who have bought 4K televisions without HDMI2.0/HDCP2.2 who do not realize when Blu-ray 4K comes out they will be useless other than for camcorders (or the Sony media player if it's a Sony TV and you are in the US).
All very good points Jon.

1. The two front mains are not EQued (with AccuEQ). And the subwoofer; I just don't know for sure, just like you.

2. Perhaps Dolby Atmos speakers don't need to be EQued as they are already designed to provide a certain special sound 'object'. ...Directivity and reflectivity based from their encoding, and discrete too.

3. Excellent point here; without HDMI version 2.0 you will not be getting the full Ultra High Definition (4K) picture. And no magic trick will fix that. ...HDMI 2.0 all the way; from the source to the receiver (SSP) to the display. ...Or from the source directly to the TV (Oppo BD players with two HDMI outputs).
* Are they really selling 4K TVs without HDMI version 2.0?

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Last edited by NorthSky; 07-20-2014 at 10:59 AM. Reason: Added up
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post #1564 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Audyssey has always been able to measure any speakers used in the main zone from 2-13 depending on the model of AVR being used as will continue to be the case with the D&M 2014 models as well. D&M has specifically added 2 additional processors (4 total) to accommodate the additional processing power required to use Audyssey MultEQ XT32 + Atmos.
Wow, Audyssey was already ahead of the curve, and now they simply add that extra processing power (DSP chips) for them four additional Atmos speakers.

And I assume that if you want to add more Atmos speakers (up to 24 plus 10 overhead ones), they'll simply add more DSP chips; perhaps up to a dozen of them?
- And them extra DSP chips for more processing and fast power response; they cost more money too.
{Dolby Atmos is good business for the manufacturers.}

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post #1565 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Channel based audio has allowed for that up to this point.... the amount of front speakers doesn't automatically increase when using an object based solution in the home...

It's also sometimes harder to do properly since the location of the LCR speakers can vary so widely from setup to setup.... not to mention when the aspect ration changes (in a properly setup cinema the LR are on the edges or just outside the edges, in scope they are on the LR side..

Regardless, there are many things that dictate whether or not panning dialog is a good idea, or warranted.

Many times when dealing with location recordings, the amount of ambient noise, overlapping dialog, movement, etc. makes it impossible to do so without creating other issues.

Sometimes the way the picture is edited doesn't allow for it even when the quality of the recordings would allow for such things...

All that being said, I'm hearing more and more films with panned dialog.... however, as I said, it's not based on the new availability of objects to do so.
Good point Marc.

* Methinks that the best would be to have two film mixing audio soundtracks; one for large theaters (large theater Dolby Atmos sound mix) and the other for regular living rooms (small studio Dolby Atmos sound mix).
...See what I mean...paradise surround sound hound for everybody. ...We just select the perfect one to suit our theater room (large dedicated home theater room, or smaller normal living room style home theater, a-la-maison regular type, modest, ...). ...From the Blu-ray's (4K) audio select menu. ...100Gb capacity.
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Last edited by NorthSky; 07-20-2014 at 01:18 PM. Reason: Marc (not Mark)
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post #1566 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I think neither XT32 nor XT do it right. Sure they work as designed but in my opinion they do things that shouldn't be done. Audyssey room correction even may sound good but "a false premise implies any proposition, false or true".
XT32 might work reasonably good in larger rooms but not so much in smaller ones. XT overcorrects at higher frequencies but doesn't have enough frequency resolution at low frequencies.
My recommendation: Use XT32 if you're looking for an easy to use, fully automated tool, stay away from XT and lower versions of Audyssey.

Regarding Atmos, I haven't decided yet. The cheapest one with useful PEQ (or better*) that can do 5.x.4 will suffice.

* If Pioneer would allow the use of user generated FIR filters, this would be a dream come true.
Thanx a big bunch Markus; I highly value your opinion.
And Roger also likes a flexible PEQ. * The Emotiva XMC-1 SSP has one of them...

Pioneer Elite, Yamaha...they are both in that boat as well.

_______________


<<>> I love it when you say "stay away from XT, and lower..."
- "XT32 is reasonably preferable for larger rooms, and not so much for smaller ones" - that's very good too.
- "XT over-corrects in the high frequencies, and not enough in the lower audio registers" - that too I like.
* Audyssey MultEQ XT Pro (based on XT32)? ...You made no mention on that, but I did not ask either. ...Now I do.

_______________

By the way, parametric EQ filters; they don't use time (impulse) response (delay), but only frequency range based.

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post #1567 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by brwsaw View Post
Will/should voices follow the actors movement on screen better/more specific to the location of their mouths with object based audio?
Probably not. The current 3 screen speakers are already very capable of aligning sounds with images. And it is sometimes used for voice positioning. But it was determined long ago that such capability needs to be used with caution, as it can be distracting. Object audio does not change that.

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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Not sure that's a good idea.... They won't know where the actor is in your room, if he's on a small tv or a very large screen.
When it comes to small rooms, it is entirely possible to adapt the sound to improve the result. This is Case 1 from another post.

Let's say your TV screen is small, and that it would improve the enjoyment of the presentation if the onscreen sounds (sounds associated with a visible source) were to remain better tied to the screen size, thus avoiding exaggerated lateral cues for sources near the sides of the screen. This can be achieved with object rendering that is informed about the screen size. Then it will know how to map "screen edge" sounds to the phantom locations accordingly. As with any phantom image, it can shift depending on the location of the viewer. However, these phantoms are not built between L and R, but with L/C and C/R, so the error is cut in half. Furthermore, the error is never worse (and usually better) than the displacement error with standard L/C/R playback around a small screen.

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post #1568 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 01:23 PM
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Roger, a la 'Gravity' style audio mix? ...The Blu-ray as it stands right now is pretty efficient in that regard.
And actually it works for both small and large home theater rooms. ...As I noticed @ both my local IMAX theater (3D) and @ home (3D).

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post #1569 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Furthermore, the error is never worse (and usually better) than the displacement error with standard L/C/R playback around a small screen.
Not so sure that the diffuse placement of today is worse to live with than a perfect placement that's permanently a foot next to the actors.

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post #1570 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Roger, a la 'Gravity' style audio mix? ...
I was only referring to on-screen voices, per the O/P's question.

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post #1571 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
By the way, parametric EQ filters; they don't use time (impulse) response (delay), but only frequency range based.
No, PEQ will change frequency and time behavior.

Markus

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post #1572 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I was only referring to on-screen voices, per the O/P's question.
Me too.

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post #1573 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
No, PEQ will change frequency and time behavior.
I agree. ...That's what I meant; it won't correct for the time decay.

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post #1574 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I agree. ...That's what I meant; it won't correct for the time decay.
It does if the response was minimum phase.

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post #1575 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Not sure that's a good idea.... They won't know where the actor is in your room, if he's on a small tv or a very large screen.
I'm exited to read the first set up and calibration manual.

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post #1576 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I've heard the up mixing..
The question is how will the up-mixing of non native mazerial by processors/receivers at home?
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post #1577 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
The question is how will the up-mixing of non native mazerial by processors/receivers at home?
Care to make a clear sentence?

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post #1578 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
3. Excellent point here; without HDMI version 2.0 you will not be getting the full Ultra High Definition (4K) picture. And no magic trick will fix that. ...HDMI 2.0 all the way; from the source to the receiver (SSP) to the display. ...Or from the source directly to the TV (Oppo BD players with two HDMI outputs)
Not true. You can get 8-bit color 4K at 24Hz/30Hz using HDMI 1.4. Some devices will also allow 4K60 at 60Hz at the 4:2:0 colorspace. I've had my HDMI 1.4 Denon 4520 upscale to 4K and pass that signal to my HDMI 1.4 JVC RS4910 over an HDBaseT connection (also HDMI 1.4 connection) and it works fine.

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post #1579 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I've heard the up mixing.. it's quite good.
Could you elaborate, i.e. ambient and/or discrete effects?

I'd think that having top speakers would greatly improve the former, but did it seem to create any of the latter?

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post #1580 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
All very good points Jon.

1. The two front mains are not EQued (with AccuEQ). And the subwoofer; I just don't know for sure, just like you.
I posted this in another thread. The Onkyo marketing people have described AccuEQ different ways in different places. This is from the PR-SC5530 datasheet, and in this description, it makes it look like there may be full 7.1 EQ for non-stereo playback (movies, DD, DTS, etc.), but then bypass the EQ on the fronts for stereo playback.

Onkyo introduces the powerful AccuEQ room calibration system. AccuEQ measures and corrects speaker distances, levels, crossovers, and frequency response from one convenient listening position to ensure clear and cohesive surround-sound while enabling playback of 7.1-channel formats at 96 kHz (no down-sampling). For the ultimate in pure stereo performance, AccuEQ bypasses the front channels so the unique characteristics of your loudspeakers can be enjoyed without DSP correction to potentially alter the sound.


It's really hard to tell from these marketing blurbs whether the fronts are always bypassed or just in stereo playback.

I'm as interested to figure out what's going on as anyone, which is why I've been digging around to get a more complete explanation of AccuEQ.
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post #1581 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Could you elaborate, i.e. ambient and/or discrete effects?
It would be weird if the did the latter, since legacy soundtracks don't contain any intended height content.

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post #1582 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by westmd View Post
The question is how will the up-mixing of non native material by processors/receivers at home?
If by "non-native" you mean Atmos content, I think upmixing only operates on non-Atmos content. Regular stereo, 5.1, 7.1 stuff.

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post #1583 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
Not true. You can get 8-bit color 4K at 24Hz/30Hz using HDMI 1.4. Some devices will also allow 4K60 at 60Hz at the 4:2:0 colorspace. I've had my HDMI 1.4 Denon 4520 upscale to 4K and pass that signal to my HDMI 1.4 JVC RS4910 over an HDBaseT connection (also HDMI 1.4 connection) and it works fine.
I did not know that. ...And what about if later on we get 60fps (or 48fps) down the HDMI convoy?
...Without using them separate special devices. ...And also about more than 8-bit color?

* 'Upscaling' to 4K isn't the same as passing it straight.

Isn't it preferable to have HDMI version 2.0 now that we are in a more advanced world, ultra hi-def picture and ultra hi-res audio wise? Why not simply adapt to our times without much complication? ...To save money? ...And remain behind the curve tomorrow?

<<>> When I'll get my first true 4K Blu-ray movies, I want HDMI v.2.0 in all my components' chain (4K display, not pseudo, 4K true BD player, and 4K true SSP (or AV receiver), and true 4K HDMI cables.
...And true Dolby Atmos, with minimum of four overhead Atmos speakers, in addition to the other seven main channel speakers (7.2.4 @ minimun). ...Eleven speakers and no less than two subwoofers.
For some people that would be seventeen speakers total plus four subs (11.4.6).

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post #1584 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 08:51 PM
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My understanding so far is that you will have to choose between Atmos and PLIIZ. You can't have both. example: 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 (for arguments sake). We know the 5. or 7. is our current L,C,R, Side & Surround. We all know the .4 is Atmos ceiling speakers. I don't see it listed anywhere yet a 9.1.2? which would allow for 2 heights or wides and 2 atmos ceiling speakers unless I missed something. The Atmos receiver would require 13 outputs to cover a 9.1.4 speaker setup. What about those that want 4 ceiling speakers? They would need 15 outputs to cover every speaker combination 11.1.4. As far as I know, they don't have the processing power yet.
So are we basically exchanging our height and wide speakers (4 speakers) for Atmos ceiling (4 speakers)?

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post #1585 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 08:59 PM
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I don't see it listed anywhere yet a 9.1.2? which would allow for 2 heights or wides and 2 atmos ceiling speakers unless I missed something.
Onkyo mentioned support for that configuration initially. Seems Denon will be supporting it as one of the Atmos configurations too.

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post #1586 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I did not know that. ...And what about if later on we get 60fps (or 48fps) down the HDMI convoy?
...Without using them separate special devices. ...And also about more than 8-bit color?

* 'Upscaling' to 4K isn't the same as passing it straight.

Isn't it preferable to have HDMI version 2.0 now that we are in a more advanced world, ultra hi-def picture and ultra hi-res audio wise? Why not simply adapt to our times without much complication? ...To save money? ...And remain behind the curve tomorrow?

<<>> When I'll get my first true 4K Blu-ray movies, I want HDMI v.2.0 in all my components' chain (4K display, not pseudo, 4K true BD player, and 4K true SSP (or AV receiver), and true 4K HDMI cables.
...And true Dolby Atmos, with minimum of four overhead Atmos speakers, in addition to the other seven main channel speakers (7.2.4 @ minimun). ...Eleven speakers and no less than two subwoofers.
For some people that would be seventeen speakers total plus four subs (11.4.6).
In terms of a given HDMI chain's ability to pass a 4K signal, upscaling is exactly the same as "passing it straight."

Of course HDMI 2.0 is preferable. Higher-than-8-bit color content is certainly a possibility, as is 4K60 (although that'll likely be just as common as native 1080p60 content, which is to say "not very"). You make some valid points. However, I was only responding to your statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky
without HDMI version 2.0 you will not be getting the full Ultra High Definition (4K) picture. And no magic trick will fix that
which isn't true.

Have fun waiting for every single standard (HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2, Dolby Atmos, etc) to be fully fleshed out before you make a move. Me? I'll enjoy my "pseudo 4K" JVC projector and Denon 4520 with 9.2 surround sound today, and when Atmos comes along, I'll install some in-ceiling speakers (the wiring's just been completed!), get a new receiver, and be good to go. And once 4K is firmly entrenched, it'll be display upgrade time too.

Besides, I'm not sure what place an HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 discussion has in a Dolby Atmos thread. The presence or absence of HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 has no bearing at all on whether Atmos will work.

Last edited by Schwa; 07-20-2014 at 09:12 PM.
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post #1587 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Could you elaborate, i.e. ambient and/or discrete effects?

I'd think that having top speakers would greatly improve the former, but did it seem to create any of the latter?
I agree with your conclusion, and is how I would describe it.

It was a brief demo. But definitely created a dome effect.
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post #1588 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 09:16 PM
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Onkyo mentioned support for that configuration initially. Seems Denon will be supporting it as one of the Atmos configurations too.
I guess if your indecisive or don't want to completely commit to atmos, you can have the best of both worlds albeit only 2 atmos speakers but 2 are better than none.

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post #1589 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
In terms of a given HDMI chain's ability to pass a 4K signal, upscaling is exactly the same as "passing it straight."

Of course HDMI 2.0 is preferable. Higher-than-8-bit color content is certainly a possibility, as is 4K60 (although that'll likely be just as common as native 1080p60 content, which is to say "not very"). You make some valid points. However, I was only responding to your statement:



which isn't true.

Have fun waiting for every single standard (HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2, Dolby Atmos, etc) to be fully fleshed out before you make a move. Me? I'll enjoy my "pseudo 4K" JVC projector and Denon 4520 with 9.2 surround sound today, and when Atmos comes along, I'll install some in-ceiling speakers (the wiring's just been completed!), get a new receiver, and be good to go. And once 4K is firmly entrenched, it'll be display upgrade time too.

Besides, I'm not sure what place an HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 discussion has in a Dolby Atmos thread. The presence or absence of HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 has no bearing at all on whether Atmos will work.
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post #1590 of 8819 Old 07-20-2014, 10:11 PM
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Methinks that the best would be to have two film mixing audio soundtracks; one for large theaters (large theater Dolby Atmos sound mix) and the other for regular living rooms (small studio Dolby Atmos sound mix).
In effect, they should be doing this now: the original theatrical mix, made for a large room (say, 7000+ square feet), done at an operating level of 85dB; and a "TV/home video mix," made for a much smaller room (say, 400 square feet), done at an operating level of 79dB. This is widely recommended by SMPTE, the AES, and several other industry groups.

One huge, huge problem for theatrical mixes is that their dynamic ranges are way too intense for an average living room. I'm sure all of you have encountered situations where you inch up the volume in order to hear low-level dialogue in a feature film, and then WHAM... you get hit by a massive orchestral peak or a big explosion, you get knocked out of your seat, and you have to quickly dial the level back by 4 or 5 dB. This is that problem.

The problem is that studios are cheap and most directors are ignorant of this, so too often, the theatrical mix winds up getting plopped on Blu-rays, and that's what we get. They rarely translate well to home video, in my experience. When the sound supervisor has the time (and budget), they can go through in a single day and make minor adjustments to the existing mix and make it work at the 79dB level, and which also generally will work with the ITU R128 loudness specs required for TV mixes around the world.

My fear with Home Atmos is that if they jam 5 or 10 or 20 more channels in there, even with the metadata, there's a chance we're either going to miss important channel information we need to hear, or we're going to wind up with phase issues when multiple channels are combined. I think this can work under ideal situations, but again, it'll require the studios to spend more money and do multiple passes of different mixes in different rooms. A THX PM-3-style room -- a small-to-medium-size mix bay, essentially what they used for TV -- would work fine, provided they had enough loudspeakers.
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