The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 57 - AVS Forum
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post #1681 of 8724 Old 07-21-2014, 11:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Content.
But Atmos is 9 channels or do you think the new possibilities Atmos offers don't get used by content creators? I'm not talking about objects here but about effects like reverbs utilizing all channels.

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post #1682 of 8724 Old 07-21-2014, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
But Atmos is 9 channels or do you think the new possibilities Atmos offers don't get used by content creators? I'm not talking about objects here but about effects like reverbs utilizing all channels.
Channels (beds) are indeed a good way to handle multi-channel reverbs efficiently. But with respect to scaling many signals to fewer speakers, it makes no difference electrically (the phase issue) whether an x-channel reverb is delivered by channels or objects.

Roger

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post #1683 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
In any case, any reason it isn't done?
Because it would be difficult to impossible to pull off phantom height imaging in a commercial cinema without height speakers.

Sanjay
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post #1684 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 02:38 AM
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I, for one am going to have to "stand corrected" on the upward firing Atmos speakers that i have made countless jokes about. And here is why. I was in LA this weekend visiting the in laws and was invited to a private showing of planet of the apes. A name brand AVR/Speaker CE was there with there home Atmos set up. The room we viewed the movie in serves as both post and pre-release screenings. It has all the bells, whistles, you name it, this room has it. All the gear was in plain sight, laid out just like any HT end user would do it, there was four overheads, and the fronts and rears had the upward firing speakers. We were told that sometime during the movie, the switch from the over heads to the upward firing speakers would be made.

This switch, as we were later told, happened during a scene in the movie were it was extremely quite, around half way through the movie, and me, as well as 21 other people, never noticed it at all. This viewing room, however is around a $3 million dollar room, so it has what the rest of us, probably never will have, as it gets remodeled yearly it seems like. The first thing i noticed was the removal of the over head sound deadening material(duh) in the room, other than that it looked the same(except the wall paintings). For those who are asking, it was a DCI projector, Christie Digital, however it was a MKV file encoded with Dolby TrueHD sound, played from a laptop, same thing that will be planet of the apes when it shows up on BR disk. The sound was sent VIA HDMI to a Atmos consumer model AVR that will be available end of year(they said that) as will the speakers.

So i will say Dolby and --------- did a fine job on a joint effort to "get it right".

I really wish i had been allowed to take some pictures and video, but the answer to that was a big, fat "NO". And also since all the equipment i saw, was still in it's prototype condition i am not able to answer any who, what, or were's i can tell you when, Sunday.

I was told top electronics stores were going to have a similar mock up, Best Buy, Fry's electronics, etc. So i guess you can hear the same demo at one of them near you, this year.
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Last edited by CinemaAndy; 07-22-2014 at 11:38 AM. Reason: Dolby not DTS.
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post #1685 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:00 AM
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^^
Your experience with Dolby enabled speakers seems identical to Keith Barnes'. This bodes very well for folks who can't do ceilings. Besides installation issues, another obvious advantage of the Dolby enabled speakers is they would allow some experimentation with placement.

Steve
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post #1686 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:09 AM
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Do you believe they will sell the upward firing drivers for Pioneer separately? Have always been able to find any replacement part I looked for with Pioneer befire, yet this seems like they may stray from that approach
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post #1687 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
What??!!!

You want to explain the physics behind how a 5.1 outputs height effects? Not happening - it's all in your head.

Phantom channels between the fronts and surrounds are possible. Phantom channel between the surrounds are possible. But it's not possible to generate a sound from the ceiling unless you've got some really strange reflections in your room. And that would be a coincidence, not something that was built into the mix.
Have you tried it? Yes, it may well be psychoacoustic but that doesn’t make it any less real. I agree it is not built into the mix, but then I didn't say it was.


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post #1688 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
What is a realistic time line for atmos to be mainstream I want it now. Giving birth takes nine months from conception. I can't wait for a long pregnancy I want it now. I'll start with preparing my speaker lay out. Does anyone know if two or four overhead speakers will work like say if I only use two like let's say front highs will the front and back highs be sent to the front highs. Or will I lose the rear high objects???? does that make sense.
I think all those questions have been answered in this thread already.


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post #1689 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
For academic interest, I look forward to sometime reading a comparison of the differences in the "surround impression delivered" between playback of a Neo:X matrix encoded movie (e.g., Expendables 2, nominally DTS-HDMA 7.1 | Neo:X 11.1) with native Neo:X post-processing, versus with Dolby Atmos upmix.
_
I have that disc, and I have also heard Atmos for the home in a 'typical' HT. There is no comparison between the two experiences. Of course, the Atmos demo did not use the Expendables 2 disc, but the difference between Atmos and anything else I have ever heard tells me that a Neo:X processed disc and an Atmos disc would be miles apart. And so it should be - one is using objects and precise x, y, z co-ordinates to place sounds in three dimensional space and the other is upmixing regular 7.1.


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post #1690 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
I agree with this and your general opinion that staying in the same family of speakers is going to be very beneficial in Atmos upgrades/transitions. I'm sure everyone is doing the same thing as me; researching what is available to use from the manufacturer of your other speakers. My system at home is a THX Ultra 2 system for all but subs. The logical go-to in that line would be the KL-7502-THX which really do sound terrific. http://www.klipsch.com/kl-7502-thx-in-ceiling-speaker.


My issue is that the ceiling is beams/millwork, so no built-ins will help. That ceiling is up there at 12.5 feet, so getting KL-650s-THX (LCRs) or KL-525-THXs up there is not such a realistic alternative for several reasons. First, they are really heavy, and they are boxy looking. Maybe more importantly in this application, they have a rather high directivity index.


So, I'm thinking that the classic outdoor work horse, the AW-650 may be a good choice. It is friendly to the installation situation (with its C-bracket), it sounds excellent (had them outside for ten years), and they are not high on directivity, having a 90 x 90 horn. These are easily custom finished as well to conceal. http://www.klipsch.com/aw-650-outdoor-speaker. I bet with EQ these will fit in beautifully.
Seems reasonable. And the wide dispersion is apparently beneficial. Combine that with Roger's remarks on timbre matching being less important now we have electronic EQ and I am tending myself towards the Tannoy dual concentrics Roger mentioned, even though all my other speakers are by M&K.


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post #1691 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
That is exactly what they have to do. The good home video departments do this as a matter of course. I would argue that the picture also has to be slightly changed between color-correction on a 20' screen vs. a 50" screen, but that's a different subject. (Surprisingly, the big screen is easier in some ways.)

There's a huge difference between a mix intended to be played in a giant theater with 500-1000 seats and a mix intended to be played in a living room with 5 seats. If you can't grasp the difference, I don't know what to say.

Dolby and THX both have very good standards on reference levels based on room size and other factors. I can refer you to several AES reference papers on the subject if you want them.

Note that the adjustments are not drastic -- it's merely constricting the dynamic range another 5dB so as to make the low-level dialogue more audible. Otherwise, trust me, you're going to blown out of the room (and not in a good way).
What you seem to be experiencing at home is not what I am experiencing, so we will have to agree to disagree. And it's OT anyway.


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post #1692 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
^^
Your experience with Dolby enabled speakers seems identical to Keith Barnes'. This bodes very well for folks who can't do ceilings. Besides installation issues, another obvious advantage of the Dolby enabled speakers is they would allow some experimentation with placement.
Yes - while I could hear a small difference in precision with the on-ceiling speakers, it was indeed small. Other people at the demo could not hear any difference at all. One thing I would have liked to have heard, but there was no time, was that 'cave scene' from the movie I have agreed with Dolby not to mention by name, played through Atmos speakers and on-ceiling speakers. Some have said that the Atmos speakers actually give a better impression because the sound has to travel to the ceiling and then to the listener and this gives the impression of a taller ceiling than is there in reality. In the cave scene the most impressive aspect of it, for me, was the sheer size of the space that was conveyed, truly making the room's walls and ceiling just 'disappear'. I would have liked to compare that effect with the Atmos and the physical speakers, to see what, if any, difference there was. I may get another demo in the not too distant future and if there is more time, that is something I would like to explore. Imagine if the Atmos speakers, or add-on modules, are actually better than real, physical speakers!


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post #1693 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Channels (beds) are indeed a good way to handle multi-channel reverbs efficiently. But with respect to scaling many signals to fewer speakers, it makes no difference electrically (the phase issue) whether an x-channel reverb is delivered by channels or objects.
Yes but my point was that you will get "phase issues" once the number of speakers available to the playback system is less than the number of channels/objects used by the hypothetical x-channel reverb.

Markus

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post #1694 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 04:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I, for one am going to have to "stand corrected" on the upward firing Atmos speakers
Good to hear that they seem to work well. Did you sit in the sweet spot? Did they also play discrete sounds that would allow comparison of how good localization is with ceiling speakers vs. ceiling-firing speakers?

Markus

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post #1695 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
...imaging overhead are those footsteps we are discussing. There's no doubt at all that they image overhead, although 'overhead' is a slight misnomer as they actually image above the screen, but that reflects the on-screen action nicely anyway.
agreed. the footsteps on the deck above very clearly image above the plane of one's head. phantom or psychoacoustic, the illusion of overhead is there in M&C.

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post #1696 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 04:33 AM
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Keith, w/o going thru your whole review did they by chance demo using the Atmos engine to upmix 5.1 material vs using PLIIx?

Steve
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post #1697 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Good to hear that they seem to work well. Did you sit in the sweet spot? Did they also play discrete sounds that would allow comparison of how good localization is with ceiling speakers vs. ceiling-firing speakers?
Covered in my review.


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post #1698 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
Keith, w/o going thru your whole review did they by chance demo using the Atmos engine to upmix 5.1 material vs using PLIIx?
No. I asked about upmixing and they said it "worked very well" or similar phrase. Because the HT room only had 6 seats, and there were a lot of people to get through, there wasn't time to explore many of the things I would have liked to explore. I may get another opportunity and if so, I will try to cover what wasn't covered last time.


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post #1699 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
What you seem to be experiencing at home is not what I am experiencing, so we will have to agree to disagree. And it's OT anyway.
You've never heard a film on DVD or Blu-ray where the dialogue level in low-level scenes isn't way too low, and the peaks are way too loud? Wow, either I'm very sensitive to the problem, or we watch very different films.

Check out the post sound section of the Gearslutz Forum, where quite a few re-recording mixers hang out. There's many, many, many conversations about this, particularly on the issue of different reference levels for different venues and different-size rooms.
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post #1700 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
You've never heard a film on DVD or Blu-ray where the dialogue level in low-level scenes isn't way too low, and the peaks are way too loud? Wow, either I'm very sensitive to the problem, or we watch very different films.
Maybe very, very rarely on poor mixes. I listen at, typically, -6dB. Dialog is almost always, especially these days, perfectly reproduced and I expect explosions and stuff to be loud. Occasionally I check my SPL meter and seem to typically hit about 103dB on peaks. It all seems perfectly balanced to me. I know that a lot of people complain about poor dialog intelligibility but I put this down to a poorly optimized system, or inferior speakers or bad setup etc. Certainly, here, I almost never have a problem with dialog either being too soft, too loud or unintelligible. I can’t remember the last time I even noticed this as a problem. Not saying nobody has a problem - just that I don't.

EDIT: if you can give me the names of a few recent movies that cause you the problem, I may well have those titles and I can specifically check to see how they play for me, here.


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post #1701 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
You've never heard a film on DVD or Blu-ray where the dialogue level in low-level scenes isn't way too low, and the peaks are way too loud? Wow, either I'm very sensitive to the problem, or we watch very different films.

Check out the post sound section of the Gearslutz Forum, where quite a few re-recording mixers hang out. There's many, many, many conversations about this, particularly on the issue of different reference levels for different venues and different-size rooms.
I have that happen in my "living room" home theater, but when I've watched movies in my buddies purpose built, acoustically treated theater, dialog is always crystal clear and no playing volume jockey like I do at home.
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post #1702 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
I have that happen in my "living room" home theater, but when I've watched movies in my buddies purpose built, acoustically treated theater, dialog is always crystal clear and no playing volume jockey like I do at home.
Yes, perhaps I should have mentioned that I have a dedicated room, acoustically measured with REW, then treated accordingly, with good quality speakers (M&K S150s LCR and M&K for surrounds too), with plenty of amplification, terrific subs (dual Submersives) and so on. I assumed Marc had a high quality system, which is why I am surprised he has dialog issues.

My view is that if anyone has problems with dialog on modern movies on disc, then something is wrong. And I can't see how it is the disc which is causing the problem or we would all have the same problem. And, clearly, we don't.

And we are getting more and more OT....


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post #1703 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Seems reasonable. And the wide dispersion is apparently beneficial. Combine that with Roger's remarks on timbre matching being less important now we have electronic EQ and I am tending myself towards the Tannoy dual concentrics Roger mentioned, even though all my other speakers are by M&K.
I love the Tannoys, and researched them but I run into the same problem of difficulty of installation in my room.
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post #1704 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I think all those questions have been answered in this thread already.
thanks i will reread all the post again. i'm just a bit worried that i'll purchase a new 1st generation atmos receiver and then come to find out it will need to be replaced when a second or third generation AVR comes out next year or the year after, lets hope they built it to be upgradable as it looks right now it just Dolby what will happen when DTS comes along.
i'm not looking to find an excuse to not jump on board i just want to be smart, by spending 2 grand and then to find out i should have waited another year......any thoughts

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post #1705 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 08:32 AM
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Thanks for the writeup, Andy.

This part was particularly interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
it was a MKV file encoded with DTS-HDMA sound, played from a laptop, same thing that will be planet of the apes when it shows up on BR disk. The sound was sent VIA HDMI to a Atmos consumer model AVR that will be available end of year(they said that) as will the speakers.

So i will say Dolby and --------- did a fine job on a joint effort to "get it right".


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post #1706 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
agreed. the footsteps on the deck above very clearly image above the plane of one's head. phantom or psychoacoustic, the illusion of overhead is there in M&C.
i don't have M&C but i put in Life of PI and that storm when the ship sinks and the rain is pouring down you would swear it's coming from the ceiling mind you my set up right now is, front mains, center, front highs, wides and surrounds with two subs with listening mode in DTS Neo:X

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PN60E8000 Plus evolution 2013Kit + Directv genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 818 9.2 Bic F12 subs Onkyo M-5010 2-Channel Amplifier for wides.
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PN51F5500 + Directv Genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2
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post #1707 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
...

This switch, as we were later told, happened during a scene in the movie were it was extremely quite, around half way through the movie, and me, as well as 21 other people, never noticed it at all. This viewing room, however is around a $3 million dollar room, so it has what the rest of us, probably never will have, as it gets remodeled yearly it seems like. The first thing i noticed was the removal of the over head sound deadening material(duh) in the room, other than that it looked the same(except the wall paintings). For those who are asking, it was a DCI projector, Christie Digital, however it was a MKV file encoded with DTS-HDMA sound, played from a laptop, same thing that will be planet of the apes when it shows up on BR disk. The sound was sent VIA HDMI to a Atmos consumer model AVR that will be available end of year(they said that) as will the speakers.

So i will say Dolby and --------- did a fine job on a joint effort to "get it right".
Given it was an Atmos demo, I believe you meant: Dolby TrueHD.

I'm just a caveman. Your modern world frightens and confuses me.
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post #1708 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
I love the Tannoys, and researched them but I run into the same problem of difficulty of installation in my room.
For me the Tannoys solve a few installation issues - their 'c-bracket' type of mount is perfect for me. I think I will go with them...


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post #1709 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
...My view is that if anyone has problems with dialog on modern movies on disc, then something is wrong. And I can't see how it is the disc which is causing the problem or we would all have the same problem. And, clearly, we don't..
keith - Maybe in my 'older' years I'm slowly hearing less and less. But, i've always had issues with dialog and have attempted to calibrate my system and even boosted the center-channel to compensate. However, I don't alway think it's me. Some micing is just done poorly I think and some diction by actor/actresses is simply not clear leading to unclear words and mumbled text - especially true on soft passages. Boosting the overall volume is not an issue for me, but moreso when my wife is watching too. She can't stand the loud explosions, so I'm constantly moving the volume up and down depending upon the scene.

I'm in the process of completing my new media/TV and office space, but I have not 'moved in' yet. I've taken measures during the construction to lower the noise-floor and will treat the room as well. I'm now even adding 4 ceiling speakers in anticipation of future Atmos. I hope the over dynamics of my new space will help reveal softer dialog passages more clearly once I get my system tuned for the room. Rick

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post #1710 of 8724 Old 07-22-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
thanks i will reread all the post again. i'm just a bit worried that i'll purchase a new 1st generation atmos receiver and then come to find out it will need to be replaced when a second or third generation AVR comes out next year or the year after, lets hope they built it to be upgradable as it looks right now it just Dolby what will happen when DTS comes along.
i'm not looking to find an excuse to not jump on board i just want to be smart, by spending 2 grand and then to find out i should have waited another year......any thoughts
It is possible that a Gen 2 unit may come along sooner or later, with added features. But your Gen 1 unit will still work. I am starting with the cheapest Atmos AVR that meets my immediate needs, for that very reason. Probably the Denon X4100W.


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