The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 60 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1771 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by redjr View Post
Roger - I normally try to leave those kinds of audio processing options turned off. It's not that explosions are abnormally loud for a typical action type movie, it's just she prefers not to have them loud at all! Even in a commercial theater - where she has no control. At home we don't listen anywhere near reference. When I increase the volume so that I can hear 'softer' passages, the explosions or gunfire is just louder than she likes, so I keep the remote in my lap.
You don't use these options.... but instead you are experiencing the exact symptoms for which these options were designed. What is the benefit of not just turning on DRC or Dynamic Volume or whatever and instead having to sit there yo-yoing the volume so your wife doesn't yell at you?
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post #1772 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Feri - I'm very confused. Who are these "some" you are correcting with this post? Who has been "discouraged" on this thread (or elsewhere)? Where has it been said that the minimum Atmos configuration is NOT a 5.x.2 setup?
Thank you
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post #1773 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 03:53 PM
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I reread your post trying to figure out what/who he was responding to, but I couldn't figure it out.

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post #1774 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
With DRC on? ...Which receiver (or SSP) are you using? ...Your room; treated or not?
Your center channel speaker; a two-way or a three-way (with midrange and tweeter vertically arrayed)?
Room is treated, Dynaudio Confidence center with 2 vertical Esotar2 tweeters and Anthem Statement with ARC, Moon 400M amp for center speaker. Raising the center volume a few dB is simple and effective. I find it useful in M&C when they whisper just before shouting "we shall beat to quarters".
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post #1775 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I reread your post trying to figure out what/who he was responding to, but I couldn't figure it out.
He was responding to me. When I shared that onkyo will be selling up firing speakers, I was thinking of adding to my existing set up to make it 5.1.2 or if I got four of them and add them to make it a 7.1.4 two up firing speakers for the front and/or two more for the backs.

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post #1776 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
if you can give me the names of a few recent movies that cause you the problem, I may well have those titles and I can specifically check to see how they play for me, here.
Sure: the Bad Boys Blu-ray from Sony Pictures. Volume all over the place. (Horrible movie, great cinematography.)

Interestingly, the HD transfer of Bad Boys 2 has no problem. Clearly a different mix by different people years later.
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post #1777 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I don't want to sound flippant, but you're listening with the volume turned down too low. That's why you struggle to hear dialog. When they mix the movie they assume it will be played at reference, so the dialog is set at the appropiate level for that. And then, as you have discovered, the explosions and stuff are really loud. But by turning the MV down so that the explosions are OK, you are dropping the dialog to a below-intelligible level.

Fortunately, as Roger has hinted, there are electronic compensations you can make in most AVRs. If you have Audyssey, for example, you can select Dynamic Volume. This will 'even out' the sound levels and dialog will again be intelligible but the explosions won't be nearly so loud.

This isn't a problem with the disc or media as such - it's just that you have reduced the volume so that the level of loud sounds seems OK for you. If you set the MV so that dialog was just right, then the explosions will be very loud, as they are intended to be. The solution is a technology such as Dynamic Volume.
I think you also have to take into account the ambient noise floor or your room compared to where room was mixed. The mixing stage is certainly below NC-30, and very possibly in the NC-20 range since it is an engineered environment. This is challenging for any room, but only a very well engineered dedicated home theater will reach Home THXs target of NC-20 for average home theaters, or NC-15 or top of the line rooms. Most residential rooms are in the territory of NC-50.


Straight from the THX manual, circa 2002: "Background Noise: 1.) Interferes with loudness perception. 2.) Masks low level signals and detail. 3.) Noise that is transient is distracting.


Finally, the type of LCR speakers used relative to the acoustic character of your room and listening distance can certainly account for this complaint. Critical distance is a very important factor that I've rarely seen anyone here at AVS address. Tony Grimani was the source for my education on the subject. http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/04_acoustics_2.html
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post #1778 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
Sure: the Bad Boys Blu-ray from Sony Pictures. Volume all over the place. (Horrible movie, great cinematography.)

Interestingly, the HD transfer of Bad Boys 2 has no problem. Clearly a different mix by different people years later.

Not to mention a scene in the second one where they cut a 180 in the Ferrari and you can plainly see an old white guy driving


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post #1779 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
Can you mix ceiling and reflected speakers? For example use ceilings for the rear ceilings and put reflection speakers on top of the fronts?
I dont't think you can at least with the first gen receivers. In the interview Scott did, it was mentioned that the speaker type needs to be specified before calibration so that the receiver can treat them differently based on their type.
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post #1780 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
It will be once THX finishes it's final, as delivered, testing. It will be THX Ultra 2, THX Select 2, and THX I/S plus certified.
Points to Onkyo/Integra.

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post #1781 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Room is treated, Dynaudio Confidence center with 2 vertical Esotar2 tweeters and Anthem Statement with ARC, Moon 400M amp for center speaker. Raising the center volume a few dB is simple and effective. I find it useful in M&C when they whisper just before shouting "we shall beat to quarters".
Thank you, and an excellent solution (to add 4dB level to that center channel).

By the way, I cannot stand any type of Dynamic Range (EQ or Volume); it screws everything good on a movie soundtrack, and in music listening.

* And sorry for the small interlude, at most.
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post #1782 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by redjr View Post
Roger - I normally try to leave those kinds of audio processing options turned off. It's not that explosions are abnormally loud for a typical action type movie, it's just she prefers not to have them loud at all! Even in a commercial theater - where she has no control. At home we don't listen anywhere near reference. When I increase the volume so that I can hear 'softer' passages, the explosions or gunfire is just louder than she likes, so I keep the remote in my lap.
Yes, that's exactly the issue DRC addresses. Unfortunately, John Adams is in DTS, so there's no DRC facility.

Your future home theater will use the Pioneer SC-05? That offers a Midnight mode. I cannot tell by the manual if it is a global function, or only works with encoded metadata. If you are lucky, it is the former. I'd encourage giving that a try. Perhaps also the dialog enhancement mode. What could it hurt to see what they do.

I realize that none of this helps your smaller system, and that's the unfortunate thing about the loss of access to bitstream DRC. I've not seen any decent outboard device to address this.

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post #1783 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
That should rule out Pioneer, Onkyo, Integra, Yamaha, and probably Denon.

No.

It singles out Onkyo.
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post #1784 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
But here we're not talking about binaural processing effects, the BBC and mono compatibility but about studios taking advantage of movie theater technology finally being ahead of everything else again. Will they invest in necessary downmixes for home delivery? I don't know.
We are talking about signal processors that might not downmix without phase effects. I allege that they will have to play nice or they will not be used because the mass of the market uses these more basic presentations. The BBC was just such an example.

I am optimistic that the ability to deliver greater spatial detail to cinemas will spur development of more interesting spatial signal processors -- reverbs. And they will be designed to work well within the greater ecosystem where that content may go. If it breaks when rendered to 5.1 or stereo, even if it sounds great in the cinema, there will be an alternative processor to take its place that avoids such problems.

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post #1785 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
It will be once THX finishes it's final, as delivered, testing. It will be THX Ultra 2, THX Select 2, and THX I/S plus certified.
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Originally Posted by kokishin View Post
That should rule out Pioneer, Onkyo, Integra, Yamaha, and probably Denon.

I don't know about that. My first reaction when I read Andy's original post ("Atmos consumer model AVR that will be available end of year") was: "Ooooh, I wonder if that could be the mythical AVR-X7200W." Those certifications might help to explain the big price bump over the X5200W.
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post #1786 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ambesolman View Post
Not to mention a scene in the second one where they cut a 180 in the Ferrari and you can plainly see an old white guy driving...
I believe that was Michael Bay's personal Ferrari in the movie, though he was in a different scene...

Surprised they didn't fix this with CG. There's quite a bit of CG in Bad Boys 2.
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post #1787 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Andrew Jones confirmed that there is special DSP processing in the AVR for the Atmos speakers. It may have been the HTG interview with Scott Wilkinson. If not, it was the Pioneer Atmos thread.
I posted more detail on the processing used in the Atmos Blu-ray thread.
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post #1788 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Could you not have simply provided that link right in your above post (quote) Markus?

Because now I need to find that "Pioneer thread" link, the post by Andrew Jones and his link on a paper by Roger.
Here it is:
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Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
I'll conclude with a quote from a paper published by Gary Kendall and C.A Puddie Rodgers at Northwestern University, on "The Simulation Of Three Dimensional Localization Cues for Headphone Listening":
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/p/pod/...p2372.1981.023
"The most surprising finding of this project though came when the simulated pinna functions were played back over speakers. The spectral shaping of the sounds displayed an amazing ability to dominate over the speakers and to create the same locational images as were made over headphones. Elevation is very easy to synthesize over speakers, but it is also possible to create illusions in the horizontal plane, even with front to back distinctions!"
The italics are mine, to emphasize the point.

Regards

Andrew

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post #1789 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I know, but my question remains, what does that have to do with creating perception of height via HRTF?

But sounds could be made into height info by applying HRTF at the discretion of the mixer.

Maybe the workflow logistics dictate against that, but I don't see why it wouldn't work in principle.
The problem with HRTFs is that they do not work well unless they are well matched to one's personal "H." The Dolby method uses a generalized HRTF in combination with other factors, the bounce and other details, that together are apparently pretty effective. The bounce alone or the HRTF alone, not so much.

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post #1790 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I happened to watch Ep. 3 as it was broadcast on July 4 (which starts with Abigail and John in bed) and played as intended on Directv.
PPV? HBO? Other? Even HBO applies some dynamic range compression, so it's not exactly the same ad the BD track. At least they used to do so. I have not confirmed that recently.

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post #1791 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
No.

It singles out Onkyo.
FM,

I agree along with Integra too. I originally looked at their announced Atmos AVRs without checking their pre-pros. THX ;-)

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post #1792 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
I posted this in another thread. The Onkyo marketing people have described AccuEQ different ways in different places. This is from the PR-SC5530 datasheet, and in this description, it makes it look like there may be full 7.1 EQ for non-stereo playback (movies, DD, DTS, etc.), but then bypass the EQ on the fronts for stereo playback.

Onkyo introduces the powerful AccuEQ room calibration system. AccuEQ measures and corrects speaker distances, levels, crossovers, and frequency response from one convenient listening position to ensure clear and cohesive surround-sound while enabling playback of 7.1-channel formats at 96 kHz (no down-sampling). For the ultimate in pure stereo performance, AccuEQ bypasses the front channels so the unique characteristics of your loudspeakers can be enjoyed without DSP correction to potentially alter the sound.


It's really hard to tell from these marketing blurbs whether the fronts are always bypassed or just in stereo playback.

I'm as interested to figure out what's going on as anyone, which is why I've been digging around to get a more complete explanation of AccuEQ.
Ok, I'm going to post this in the two places where I posted that maybe it was their marketing department misstating things. I just received confirmation from Integra that the front LR are bypassed.

In essence:

-It works like Audyssey and others, except that it bypasses the front left and right speakers.

-They consider this a feature, since many people choose those speakers for how they sound.

-Other room adjustment systems equalize all speakers to the same curve, which changes the sound of the main LR speakers and they think people prefer to have their LR's tone non adjusted.

-The left and right speaker will be time aligned, but not otherwise adjusted.
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post #1793 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 08:05 PM
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I just received confirmation from Integra that the front LR are bypassed.
Hasn't that been in the description from the moment it was announced? "AccuEQ bypasses the front channels"

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post #1794 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The problem with HRTFs is that they do not work well unless they are well matched to one's personal "H." The Dolby method uses a generalized HRTF in combination with other factors, the bounce and other details, that together are apparently pretty effective. The bounce alone or the HRTF alone, not so much.
I see, thanks.

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post #1795 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 08:22 PM
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I have to clear up my post. "Sunday" is a running joke/saying inside the industry that means a "product or production" will happen, when it happens. "Sunday" is used to tell someone who repeatedly asks "when". So by saying "sunday" i was telling it will happens when it happens, it will not be this Sunday. But, do look for a much informed product roll out in around 3 to 4 months.
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post #1796 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I would at minimum! It's just too easy not to.
I just did similar. I had 14/4 going to FR FL RR RL so strung some 14/2 whips up the wall to the ceiling (13' up ).

Mine would be ceiling height not in the ceiling.

Thing I am not getting is what is the difference between 7.1.2 and 9.1 with the extra 2 being front height?

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post #1797 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
I raise center speaker volume 4 dB
That throws the front soundstage out of calibration.

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post #1798 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 09:32 PM
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That throws the front soundstage out of calibration.
Actually IMHO, when I raise the centre channel by 3db, there are no issues with panning or the soundstage. YMMV.
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post #1799 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 09:33 PM
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Well, if you want a little more volume than in the mix, you raise it a little bit and enjoy a "non-calibrated" center. We tweak to please ourselves.
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post #1800 of 22288 Old 07-22-2014, 09:36 PM
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Roger, my man!

Last edited by NorthSky; 07-22-2014 at 09:44 PM. Reason: Slink
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