The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 14425 Old 07-22-2014, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
That throws the front soundstage out of calibration.
Manual calibration in this case beats auto correction: We don't always have to abide by the wrong laws created by men, we can bifurcate from them to improve our listening pleasure.

And besides, no two mixing/recording film movie soundtrack engineers are the same. Plus humans are less than perfect. ...It's up to us to balance our own life equilibrium, and not to less than perfect sound technician engineer scientist.

* I myself raise my center channel by 2 or 3dB, and it is much better that way than what Audyssey MultEQ XT32 has chosen. ...My sound stage sounds more improved too. ...It's my room, my ears, and my life's enjoyment. And that, is my scientific satisfaction, mine. ...For everyone else it is his own, when relating to surround sound @ home. ...And 'atmos' importantly the film's dialog.

...Flexibility, in the name of liberation.

Last edited by NorthSky; 07-22-2014 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Freedom...
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post #1802 of 14425 Old 07-22-2014, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Well, if you want a little more volume than in the mix, you raise it a little bit and enjoy a "non-calibrated" center. We tweak to please ourselves.
Not standing in the way of you pleasing yourself, just pointing out the downside.

Sanjay
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post #1803 of 14425 Old 07-22-2014, 11:14 PM
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No downside Sanjay, to the contrary; a benefit. ...Ask Marc (FilmMixer); dialog @ home from various movie soundtracks.
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post #1804 of 14425 Old 07-22-2014, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not standing in the way of you pleasing yourself, just pointing out the downside.
Totally understand. In fact, because i wanted more oomph in my home theater, rather than raising the LFE and changing calibrated settings, we added an infinite baffle subwoofer and calibrated with the IB for movies and without the IB for concerts.
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post #1805 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
What I was thinking of doing was getting these speakers two for the front highs two for back highs adding them to my 7.2 existing set up so I would have center, fronts, wides, surrounds front high and back high..... with my two subs.. why wouldn't this work???
You want to use two Atmos modules for the top front and another two for the top height? Yes, of course you can do that. That would make a 7.1.4 system with the following array of speakers:

  1. Front Left
  2. Front Right
  3. Centre
  4. Surround Left
  5. Surround Right
  6. Rear Surround left
  7. Rear Surround Right
  8. Front Top Left
  9. Front Top Right
  10. Rear Top Left
  11. Rear Top Right


If you want to use Wides instead of rear surrounds, AFAIK this has not been confirmed at this time by any manufacturer, but it may well be a possible configuration. It is also one I might be interested in too. Unless anyone knows different, we'll have to wait and see if this becomes possible.

English IS my native language, so I hope that answers your question
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post #1806 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
Sure: the Bad Boys Blu-ray from Sony Pictures. Volume all over the place. (Horrible movie, great cinematography.)

Interestingly, the HD transfer of Bad Boys 2 has no problem. Clearly a different mix by different people years later.
I've only got Bad Boys on DVD and it is a bit old. Some older movies did have problems with poor mixing I agree. But I did say 'modern' movies - OK BB is a modern movie... maybe I should have said 'recent' - say the last 14 years. HST, when I watched it, I don't recall any problems with dialog.

What setting of your MV do you usually use? I listen at what I call 'home reference', which is about 5dB below true reference.
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post #1807 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
I think you also have to take into account the ambient noise floor or your room compared to where room was mixed. The mixing stage is certainly below NC-30, and very possibly in the NC-20 range since it is an engineered environment. This is challenging for any room, but only a very well engineered dedicated home theater will reach Home THXs target of NC-20 for average home theaters, or NC-15 or top of the line rooms. Most residential rooms are in the territory of NC-50.


Straight from the THX manual, circa 2002: "Background Noise: 1.) Interferes with loudness perception. 2.) Masks low level signals and detail. 3.) Noise that is transient is distracting.


Finally, the type of LCR speakers used relative to the acoustic character of your room and listening distance can certainly account for this complaint. Critical distance is a very important factor that I've rarely seen anyone here at AVS address. Tony Grimani was the source for my education on the subject. http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/04_acoustics_2.html
I agree with you, and my own noise floor at night, when I usually watch a movie, is about 35-40dB. But it goes back to my earlier point - if he is listening at levels so low that some of the soundtrack is descending into the noise floor, then it isn't surprising to me that he can't hear the quieter parts of the track. The solution seems simple to me (assuming proper setup etc): turn up the MV. Or, if his wife doesn’t like loud noises, use some form of dynamic range compression such as Audyssey's Dynamic Volume, or whatever his unit has. As batpig points out, he is in the exact circumstances for which DRC was invented, but he isn’t using it.
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post #1808 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I've only got Bad Boys on DVD and it is a bit old. Some older movies did have problems with poor mixing I agree.
This was the Blu-ray. I just cranked it until it sounded about right, then rode the level when the Bayhem explosions got too overwhelming. But as I always say, it's more a question of the quiet dialogue scenes being too quiet.
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post #1809 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:20 AM
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post #1810 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
This was the Blu-ray. I just cranked it until it sounded about right, then rode the level when the Bayhem explosions got too overwhelming. But as I always say, it's more a question of the quiet dialogue scenes being too quiet.
Where is your MV, typically, when watching a movie?
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post #1811 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
If you want to use Wides instead of rear surrounds, AFAIK this has not been confirmed at this time by any manufacturer, but it may well be a possible configuration. It is also one I might be interested in too. Unless anyone knows different, we'll have to wait and see if this becomes possible.

English IS my native language, so I hope that answers your question
That will undoubtedly be my desired approach if I convert to an Atmos configuration from my current 11.1. I will probably have to forgo my rear surrounds but would dearly like to keep the front wides in the mix for 7.1.4.

And American English is MY native language.
"England and America are two countries separated by a common language." -George Bernard Shaw
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post #1812 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I posted more detail on the processing used in the Atmos Blu-ray thread.
Looks like we even don't need side surrounds anymore

"[...] an upward-firing driver configured to project sound waves toward one or more upper surfaces of the listening environment for reflection down to a listening area within the listening environment, and a side-firing driver configured to project sound waves toward one or more surfaces side surfaces of the listening environment for reflection into the listening area."

A complete 9.x.4 system with only 4 speaker (boxes):



WAF has won
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post #1813 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 05:58 AM
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Onkyo just called me

Interestingly I just got a call from my AV dealer who was chatting with the Onkyo importer and told my story about me leaving Onkyo for Denon because of AccuEQ vs Audyssey. Finally I got to talk to the Onkyo importer myself and he told me that lots of internal discussions were going on about AccuEQ vs Audyssey but he assured me that AccuEQ was not going to be a disappointment. Therefore he suggested to come to my home theater and install the Onkyo 3030 as soon as it got the Atmos firmware upgrade. The 1010 and 3030 are already in stock but they still lack the certification. So about in september Onkyo will come to visit and bring the NR3030 with which we will do an AccuEQ calibration and test against my current NR5009 to see what the new EQ can do. If I don't like it I can Always switch to Denon
Cudos to Onkyo for taking this seriously! So seriously that I can listen to it using my own theater room.
Can't wait
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post #1814 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
Interestingly I just got a call from my AV dealer who was chatting with the Onkyo importer and told my story about me leaving Onkyo for Denon because of AccuEQ vs Audyssey. Finally I got to talk to the Onkyo importer myself and he told me that lots of internal discussions were going on about AccuEQ vs Audyssey but he assured me that AccuEQ was not going to be a disappointment. Therefore he suggested to come to my home theater and install the Onkyo 3030 as soon as it got the Atmos firmware upgrade. The 1010 and 3030 are already in stock but they still lack the certification. So about in september Onkyo will come to visit and bring the NR3030 with which we will do an AccuEQ calibration and test against my current NR5009 to see what the new EQ can do. If I don't like it I can Always switch to Denon
Cudos to Onkyo for taking this seriously! So seriously that I can listen to it using my own theater room.
Can't wait
Very good service. It will be interesting to hear your views once you have heard AccuEQ and Audyssey. I still can’t see myself wanting to use EQ that doesn't EQ the front left and right speakers - why did they not just make that an option for people who believe their front speakers are somehow not influenced by the room? Also, maybe you could clarify with your dealer if AccuEQ does or does not EQ the subwoofer. There are reports that it does not, but this is not confirmed by any Onkyo website I have looked at. I find it hard to believe it does not EQ the sub.

When they install the unit in your HT, I assume they will also make some independent measurements of the results of XT32 and AccuEQ so that we have some objective way of assessing the value of each and comparing them.
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post #1815 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
AccuEQ vs Audyssey
From the patent document it looks like "Automatic Configuration and System Calibration" is part of Atmos for the home. So why pay Audyssey licensing fees if Atmos already comes with level/delay/EQ?

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post #1816 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Very good service. It will be interesting to hear your views once you have heard AccuEQ and Audyssey. I still can’t see myself wanting to use EQ that doesn't EQ the front left and right speakers - why did they not just make that an option for people who believe their front speakers are somehow not influenced by the room? Also, maybe you could clarify with your dealer if AccuEQ does or does not EQ the subwoofer. There are reports that it does not, but this is not confirmed by any Onkyo website I have looked at. I find it hard to believe it does not EQ the sub.

When they install the unit in your HT, I assume they will also make some independent measurements of the results of XT32 and AccuEQ so that we have some objective way of assessing the value of each and comparing them.
I will for sure ask all those questions. Funny thing is that it appears to me we could already test all of this right now because there is no need for Atmos to test AccuEQ and the receivers are already in stock just waiting to be certified. At least there is a good connection now and there seems to be nothing better than to just do a live comparison.
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post #1817 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
From the patent document it looks like "Automatic Configuration and System Calibration" is part of Atmos for the home. So why pay Audyssey licensing fees if Atmos already comes with level/delay/EQ?
The one thing I like most about Audyssey is the Dynamic EQ function so not just the XT32. I don't see AccuEQ doing this. Plus I don't like just one measuring position vs the 8 I get with Audyssey. It simply doesn't feel right but time will tell!

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post #1818 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
I will for sure ask all those questions. Funny thing is that it appears to me we could already test all of this right now because there is no need for Atmos to test AccuEQ and the receivers are already in stock just waiting to be certified. At least there is a good connection now and there seems to be nothing better than to just do a live comparison.
Good point. Maybe one of the main review sites like Audioholics will do just that?
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post #1819 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
The one thing I like most about Audyssey is the Dynamic EQ function so not just the XT32. I don't see AccuEQ doing this. Plus I don't just one measuring position vs the 8 I get with Audyssey. It simply doesn't feel right but time will tell!
Another good point. But if the AVR is THX-spec then it has THX Loudness Plus which can be used as a good alternative to DEQ.

It doesn't seem that a single mic position will give as good a calibration for multiple seats as the 8 positions of XT32. A single mic position is OK for assessing the beneficial effect of EQ post-calibration, where only the MLP is critical, but for automated EQ for multiple seats, multiple mic positions seems to make more sense. If some preparatory work is done with a view to minimising seat to seat variations prior to running EQ (eg with additional subs and placement) then one mic position should work fine because the EQ calculated for one seat will apply to all seats, but most people don't have the time or knowledge or even desire to do it that way and seek a simple, automated solution.
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post #1820 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Very good service. It will be interesting to hear your views once you have heard AccuEQ and Audyssey. I still can’t see myself wanting to use EQ that doesn't EQ the front left and right speakers - why did they not just make that an option for people who believe their front speakers are somehow not influenced by the room? Also, maybe you could clarify with your dealer if AccuEQ does or does not EQ the subwoofer. There are reports that it does not, but this is not confirmed by any Onkyo website I have looked at. I find it hard to believe it does not EQ the sub.

When they install the unit in your HT, I assume they will also make some independent measurements of the results of XT32 and AccuEQ so that we have some objective way of assessing the value of each and comparing them.
There is a comparison of accueq vs xt32 on a german site, it has frequency response graphs & the google translation is pretty readable - https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...tml&edit-text=

It looks predictably rubbish basically
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post #1821 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
The one thing I like most about Audyssey is the Dynamic EQ function so not just the XT32. I don't see AccuEQ doing this.
True but Dolby has a similar solution, Dolby Volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
Plus I don't just one measuring position vs the 8 I get with Audyssey. It simply doesn't feel right but time will tell!
From the patent document: "As shown in FIG. 4C, the functionality of the adaptive audio system includes a
calibration function 462. [...] If the
listening environment and playback conditions warrant a more refined analysis, multiple
microphones
can be used instead. [...] An alternative
to this topology is to use multiple omni-directional measurement microphones positioned in
likely listener locations
in the listening environment.
The microphone(s) are used to enable the automatic configuration and calibration of
the renderer and post-processing algorithms. [...] The post-processing component may include: delay, equalization, gain, speaker
virtualization, and upmixing."

I'm not saying upcoming Atmos AVRs will work that way or AccuEQ is Dolby technology but the patent shows that Dolby is thinking about certain features.

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post #1822 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Another good point. But if the AVR is THX-spec then it has THX Loudness Plus which can be used as a good alternative to DEQ.

It doesn't seem that a single mic position will give as good a calibration for multiple seats as the 8 positions of XT32. A single mic position is OK for assessing the beneficial effect of EQ post-calibration, where only the MLP is critical, but for automated EQ for multiple seats, multiple mic positions seems to make more sense. If some preparatory work is done with a view to minimising seat to seat variations prior to running EQ (eg with additional subs and placement) then one mic position should work fine because the EQ calculated for one seat will apply to all seats, but most people don't have the time or knowledge or even desire to do it that way and seek a simple, automated solution.
Onkyo does have the THX Select 2 vs my current Ultra 2. No big deal at all. Denon meets the specs but doesn't carry the label and thus doesn't hold the THX modes. Dynamic EQ is what changed everything in my setup. It boosts my rather small dipole surrounds to meet the same reference as my large F-LCR whit the volume set much lower than the 0dB ref level. And for that reason the complete sound stage opens up again. I am very afraid AccuEQ doesn't or cannot do that but who knows Onkyo might surprise me. It is not going to be a very difficult hearing test to notice DEQ
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post #1823 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
From the patent document: "As shown in FIG. 4C, the functionality of the adaptive audio system includes a
calibration function 462. [...] If the
listening environment and playback conditions warrant a more refined analysis, multiple
microphones can be used instead. [...] An alternative
to this topology is to use multiple omni-directional measurement microphones positioned in
likely listener locations in the listening environment.
The microphone(s) are used to enable the automatic configuration and calibration of
the renderer and post-processing algorithms. [...] The post-processing component may include: delay, equalization, gain, speaker
virtualization, and upmixing."
Makes me wonder how to connect multiple mics. I just hope you are right on all of this. I am an Onkyo fan meaning I would love to stay with Onkyo but my eyes and ears will be the Judge. Video quality is as important to as is audio but Denon seems to be doing right at that point as well.
If Atmos holds all of these features I guess we won't be able to test AccuEQ in that perspective right now since the currect 3030's aren't certified (or firmware upgraded) yet which makes it september again..
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post #1824 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
True but Dolby has a similar solution, Dolby Volume.
Since I am heavy into home automation I completely wrote the rs232 command set into my system and put buttons to every function the Onkyo has. I can see:
Audyssey Volume -> Light, Medium, Heavy, Off
Dolby Volume -> Low, Off
Late Night -> Low, High, Auto, Off

All of the above seem to help improve the WAF since they all have their way to decrease penetrating LFE frequencies thus making it possible to still get the dialogue but decrease the nasty Bass effects. I never use these and they do in no way what Audyssey Dynamic EQ does.
My 5009 doesn't support the Audyssey SubEQ function but the Denon does and I have two subs going in my room. Also something I miss on AccuEQ.
I guess this is getting a bit OT..

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post #1825 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
I never use these and they do in no way what Audyssey Dynamic EQ does.
Dolby Volume does: "Loudness Domain Signal Processing", Alan Seefeldt, Audio Engineering Society, Convention Paper 7180

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post #1826 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 07:29 AM
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Regarding Master and Commander:


I put it on last night to hear whether I was getting phantom "top" sounds on my 7.1 system. My rears are mounted fairly high, so that might have helped (along with PLx), but I could certainly "hear" sounds above me.


But most of all I wanted to say "thanks" for this discussion. I watched the whole movie again and enjoyed it very much. I guess we aren't going to get a sequel (it's been 10 years).


While I look forward to Atmos, and will certainly upgrade to it, I'd like to remind people to enjoy the movie, rather than the sound or visuals. Casablanca is still a much more enjoyable 2 hours than any Transformers movie, and Casablanca is 4:3, black & white, and mono.


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post #1827 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
There is a comparison of accueq vs xt32 on a german site, it has frequency response graphs & the google translation is pretty readable - https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...tml&edit-text=

It looks predictably rubbish basically
Good find. Many thanks. Not very promising as expected but luckily I can be the Judge of that in my own room.
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post #1828 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Dolby Volume does: "Loudness Domain Signal Processing", Alan Seefeldt, Audio Engineering Society, Convention Paper 7180
So, with this knowledge how would you link my DEQ comment to Dolby Volume in the first place?
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post #1829 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
There is a comparison of accueq vs xt32 on a german site, it has frequency response graphs & the google translation is pretty readable - https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...tml&edit-text=

It looks predictably rubbish basically
Wow. Thanks for that. The comparison lower down the page with XT32 in the Denon is instructive. Just look at the difference XT32 makes compared with AccuEQ.

I'll reproduce below a couple of his comparisons, just for the centre and sub...

No need to say which is which! If you let the thumbnails load up you can then switch instantly between each one, back and forth, and get a great look at the differences.
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post #1830 of 14425 Old 07-23-2014, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Bumper View Post
Interestingly I just got a call from my AV dealer who was chatting with the Onkyo importer and told my story about me leaving Onkyo for Denon because of AccuEQ vs Audyssey. Finally I got to talk to the Onkyo importer myself and he told me that lots of internal discussions were going on about AccuEQ vs Audyssey but he assured me that AccuEQ was not going to be a disappointment. Therefore he suggested to come to my home theater and install the Onkyo 3030 as soon as it got the Atmos firmware upgrade. The 1010 and 3030 are already in stock but they still lack the certification. So about in september Onkyo will come to visit and bring the NR3030 with which we will do an AccuEQ calibration and test against my current NR5009 to see what the new EQ can do. If I don't like it I can Always switch to Denon
Cudos to Onkyo for taking this seriously! So seriously that I can listen to it using my own theater room.
Can't wait
That is impressive that they would do that for you. I would also be VERY interested to hear about your experience with them. I am holding off buying another Onkyo AVR till I get some objective feedback about this new system too.
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