The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 66 - AVS Forum
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post #1951 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post
Third, to implement, the EDB would have to be outputting an already decoded Atmos signal in PCM over HDMI to your AVR as atleast 9.1 separate channels. Hmm.
Or the EDB sends the standard bed channels (5.1,7.1,9.1) to the AVR and the decoded Atmos channels out from the built in DAC to your separate power amp.
That's exactly what I mean by added complexity. Most (all?) of the current HDMI receivers can't support more than 7.1 (8 channels) of uncompressed PCM input. So any extra speakers (Atmos tops) would have to run via a separate path to a separate amplifier. So you are going to have to worry about matching levels and delays for these extra speakers that bypass the main AVR.

At that point, again, why not just sell the receiver and buy an Atmos enabled model and call it a day? How much money could you possibly save going the EDB route vs sell-and-upgrade? And then factor in all the connectivity complexity.... just doesn't seem worth it to me.

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post #1952 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Not that ANY of the potential speaker outputs are potentially active with Dolby Atmos surround mode . . .
I believe you meant to write "note" vice "not." Correct?
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post #1953 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
The future theaters will be spheres, and the sound coming from everywhere; @ 360 degrees, horizontally, vertically, above and below.

We are sensitive to sound from all around.

And we won't need 66 speakers @ home, but only 6 (3D rectangle) . ...And 2 subs. ...Through intelligent DSP manipulation we'll be transported anywhere, in any type of environment, space and illusion. ...And all in a realistic way as we know it.
Actually, your comment about "sphere theaters" is more of a reality than you think it is. A rectangular room has been what has worked for a century and a half. The envelope is being pushed for future theater design and rendering, and the whole ideal, is as close to a 100 percent feeling of being in the movie as technology will allow.
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post #1954 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Not so fast. I am running the manual through my Denon-to-English translator and I'm not convinced it won't support 11ch Atmos layouts that aren't the traditional 7.1.4.

From what I can tell, setting Amp Assign mode to "Dolby Atmos" locks you into the traditional layouts. See pg 219 for sub-setting when assign mode is set to "Dolby Atmos". You select between 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.2, and 7.1.4.

HOWEVER.... look at the sub-setting options for other assign modes (starting on pg 208). They include "Height Speakers" and "Height Layout" settings allowing you to select the layout of the extra speakers. One of the "Height Speakers" settings is "Using Dolby Speakers" which is used to tell the receiver you are using upward-firing Dolby enabled speakers. This implies that Atmos processing WILL be available even if assign mode is NOT set to "Dobly Atmos".

On the right side of pg 208 the options for "4 Height Speakers" include a MIX of "height" and "top" speakers, e.g. Top Front + Rear Height. So this implies Atmos processing won't be limited to the traditonal "top" locations.

Then check out pg 209. When "Height Speakers" setting is set to "Using Dolby Speakers" YOU CAN MIX the Dolby enabled speakers and non Dolby enabeld speakers. For example there is a setting for "Top Front and Surround Dolby".

Then on the right of pg 209 -- you can set the output of the Wide/Height2 pre-out and choose between Front Wide and Top Rear output. Implying that you CAN run a 9.1.2 setup with wides.

My conclusion is that these Denons are a lot more flexible with respect to speaker layout than some were/are fearing. If you have a "standard" Atmos layout (i.e. 5.1 or 7.1 + top speakers) you just use the "Dolby Atmos" amp assign setting and call it a day. But if you want to use a "non standard" Atmos layout, you can get there via the 9ch or 11ch mode amp assign settings combined with the sub-settings.
Bloody hell, batpig... when I switch to Denon, you'll be in constant demand from me Thanks for all that BTW - very impressive translation. I will need much help I think - switching from Onkyo to Denon is a task in itself, then add Atmos on top, then add the fact that I barely speak Denon (yet).... oh boy...
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post #1955 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I guess that exposes a wrinkle; many have their surrounds well above ear level and will need to lower their side surrounds for optimal Atmos reproduction.
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Will be interesting to hear what Dolby has to say about that.
Just raise the floor.
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post #1956 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
I believe you meant to write "note" vice "not." Correct?
Yeah, good catch

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post #1957 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
From page 210 of the (European) manual:

"When one set of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back. Furthermore,
when two sets of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Audyssey DSX® or Neo:X are played back in addition to when
Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back."
Yes, this is very interesting. I've been pouring over the X5200W European manual (found here) this morning intently. It is even more complicated than my 4311 manual.
I have come to the following conclusions, which I thought might be helpful to mention here, since they were not at first obvious to me.

First some background info:
  • What we have been calling "upmixed ATOMS" is labelled in the manual as "Dolby Surround" (looks like PLIIz is indeed gone). This will upmix to any number of speakers except front wides (see table on page 287)
  • ATMOS (or Dolby Surround upmixed) "height" speakers can be any of the overhead speakers: front height and top middle, front height and top rear, front right and rear height, top front and top rear (default), top front and rear height, top middle and rear height, or one of these pairs alone for x.x.2 configurations (see page 208) Previously it was assumed (I think) that you could not use front heights or rear heights. Additionally, it was assumed that if you used only two they would be top-centers. But all of this appears to not be true (again page 208)
  • One can indeed hook up 13 speakers (see page 43) and switch between different configurations of up to 11 at a time but only when using ATMOS (you need two outboard amps to switch between ATMOS and Neo:X/DSX... see page 210)

Now, onto the thing it took me a while to discover:

With the 5200's 9 amps alone (see page 42) one can achieve a maximum of 9.2 surround using:
  • Neo:X or DSX using a standard 7.2 setup plus front heights or front wides
  • Dolby ATMOS content using a standard 7.2 setup plus any combination of additional speakers: front heights or front wides or top fronts or top rears or rear heights
  • Dolby Surround (what we have been referring to as "ATMOS" upmixing) using a standard 7.2 setup plus any pair of height speakers BUT NOT front wides(see table on page 287)

With one outboard amp (i.e. one set of height speakers hooked to pre-outs) a maximum of 11.2 can be achieved only via:
  • Dolby ATMOS content using standard 7.2 plus and two of the following: front heights or front wides or top fronts or top rears or rear heights
  • Dolby Surround (what we have been referring to as "ATMOS" upmixing) using standard 7.2 plus any combination of speakers BUT NOT front wides (see table on page 287)
  • BUT NOT via Neo:X/DSX (not with the full 11.2 anyway)

With two outboard amps (i.e. two sets of height speakers hooked to pre-outs) and thirteen speakers, a maximum of 11.2 can be achieved using:
  • 11.2 Neo:X or DSX using 7.2 plus front heights and front wides
  • Dolby ATMOS content using standard 7.2 plus two additional pairs of speakers: any combination of front heights / front wides / top fronts / top rears / rear heights
  • Dolby Surround (what we have been referring to as "ATMOS" upmixing) using standard 7.2 plus any combination of two sets of height speakers BUT NOT front wides(see table on page 287)

So, in short, not only do we not get 9.2.4 but also we will need two outboard stereo amplifiers in order to have full access to 11.2 and also 7.2.4 (I find this to be a very strange limitation)
Also, even with all this, wides still cannot be used with "ATMOS upmixing"
In addition, in order to get full access to 11.2 and 7.2.4, it seems one set of you height speakers must be front heights (in order to access 11.2 Neo:X and DSX)

tl;dr version: So in order to have full access to 11.2 (DSX&Neo:X) and 7.2.4 (ATMOS&DolbySurround["ATMOS" upmixing]) you will have to do the following:
  • have 13 speakers (see page 43)
  • have 2 outboard stereo amps (see page 210)
  • one pair of height speakers must be front heights (see page 287) [this is for Neo:X/DSX 11.2] (the setting for this is discussed on page 208)
  • must have front wide speakers [again, this is for Neo:X/DSX 11.2] (see page 287)
  • must have "Wide/Height2" setting set to "Front Wide" (this using the internal amp to power the front wide speakers and is the default setting) see pages 210 and 209
  • must have "Height Speakers" setting set to "4 Height Speakers" (see pages 210 and 208)
  • The manual makes it appear that DSX strictly requires a more than 2 channel source, see page 293 and 174 (although on my 4311 I can using stereo + DPLIIz + DSX, so not sure about this)

Given all of this, I (and I suspect others) may just opt for choosing only between the following (requiring only one outboard amp):
  • 7.2.4 ATMOS & upmixing (with four overhead speakers: top fronts, top rears) {which I figure I would use most of the time}
  • 9.2 Neo:X (or DSX) using standard 7.2 layout plus wides {and hopefully in the future use these wides when a receiver capable of 9.2.4 is released}

Sorry for this long post, but this is as clearly and concisely as I can state it. Please suggest corrections if you think you see anything wrong. Discuss.
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post #1958 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Markus, in real life, when a jet plane is directly above your head, you can feel it all around.
The real location is 180 degree straight above you, but the sound is coming from all over, enveloping you, surrounding you from all over your body, and depending of the distance (jet plane in the sky) that sensation will vary in its intensity, more pronounced the closer it is. ...Roughly between 2,000 and 5,000 feet above.

And this is outside in the sky with mountains, trees, fields, or buildings and skyscrapers and streets surrounding you. ...In real life.

Where I live, everyday there are few big jet planes flying exactly above my head, while outside sitting on my front lawn, reading a book, playing with the dogs, watering my plants and flowers, etc.
Plus, there is a small private airport for people into the sport, the hobby, ,,, and every day (pretty much) there is a small plane flying making several passes right straight above my head, and roughly between 100 and 600 feet up. And that private airport is only few hundred feet (600-800) from where my roof is.

I am in touch with my surrounding sounds in real life. Also I live near a bird sanctuary, and my place is packed with birds of all species; from bald eagles flying right above my head (30-100) feet which I can hear the wind through their wings, to howls howling, to hummingbirds humming, to crows, to etc., etc., etc.

* Thunderstorms, ground tremors, we have them where I live. Rain, downpour, winds, violent winds on the island where I live. We are surrounded 360 degrees (foot steps, tractors wheels, toilet flushing, ...) by day-to-day sounds from all directions and all with specific locations, and we can hear them, we can localize them, everywhere.
Man what are you smoking
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PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top rear. Bic Acoustech speakers, Bic F12 subs
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PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray / Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos top front Ceiling Speakers
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post #1959 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Tnedator View Post
Ok, I'm going to post this in the two places where I posted that maybe it was their marketing department misstating things. I just received confirmation from Integra that the front LR are bypassed.

In essence:

-It works like Audyssey and others, except that it bypasses the front left and right speakers.

-They consider this a feature, since many people choose those speakers for how they sound.

-Other room adjustment systems equalize all speakers to the same curve, which changes the sound of the main LR speakers and they think people prefer to have their LR's tone non adjusted.

-The left and right speaker will be time aligned, but not otherwise adjusted.
That's very interesting because I've always felt that one of the faults of the home A/V receiver alignment systems is that in an attempt to EQ the room, they're killing the sound of the speaker by making it flat and thereby destroying its personality and the sound that was purposely engineered into the speaker by its designers.

Another way around it might be that the alignment system would first take a close-field measurement of each speaker individually, perhaps 1 to 3 feet from the speaker. Then it would do the normal measurements. Instead of trying to make everything flat, it would EQ the room to match the close-field measurement of the speaker, but taking the normal fall-off of high frequencies over distance into account.

Not EQing the L-R front speakers might be a big advantage to people who also use their systems for stereo music listening. I've never been a fan of Onkyo, but I might have to give this Integra a try.

I've never really been happy with the sound my A/V receiver for music listening - I've always feared that these alignment system do more harm than good. Even in terms of phase alignment, who knows if these systems are doing a good job?
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post #1960 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 12:57 PM
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A couple quick questions about Atmos and bass management for any who may know.

Are all the new channels considered full range? If so, how likely is it that a mixer would add deep bass objects to ceiling speakers?

Second, again if full range, what would this potentially add to the peak summed bass response sent to subs? I remember the theoretical max summed response for a 7.x system with all speakers bass managed could be something like 121 or 123. If we are talking about crazy set-ups like the DataSat, what kind if figures would we be looking at?
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post #1961 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
No. Atmos is standard 7.1 with top surrounds.
What do you think the elevations are for the fronts and regular surrounds?

I guess perhaps the channel beds are defined only in azimuth, and only objects can be located in all three axes.

Noah
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post #1962 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's exactly what I mean by added complexity. Most (all?) of the current HDMI receivers can't support more than 7.1 (8 channels) of uncompressed PCM input. So any extra speakers (Atmos tops) would have to run via a separate path to a separate amplifier. So you are going to have to worry about matching levels and delays for these extra speakers that bypass the main AVR.

At that point, again, why not just sell the receiver and buy an Atmos enabled model and call it a day? How much money could you possibly save going the EDB route vs sell-and-upgrade? And then factor in all the connectivity complexity.... just doesn't seem worth it to me.
After having 4 Integra/Onkyo pre-pro/AVRs I would stay with the brand, BUT no XT32 in the current models and no sign of a 939 or 5030. That's a no sale. So I would have to go over to the dark side. JUST KIDDING.

As to the levels and delay, in the case of analog out to an amp you would have to have volume control built in. As to the delay, I'm still trying to understand how that's dealt with when using Atmos enabled up firing speakers. So I don't have a handle on the Atmos speaker delays.

You make good points but I wonder what Vegas would say about the odds of an EDB within a year?

Patrick
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post #1963 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Here is the manual page that shows "11.1 channel playback" setting with 13 speakers connected. The 13 speaker layout is 7.1 + 2 wides + four ceiling speakers, but it clearly notes that you can only play 11 at once and the output will "switch according to the input signal and sound mode".
batpig, see the long post i just made. i want your opinion of my conclusion.

as for the statement i have quoted from you right here here, it seems that in that configuration (page 43) you options would be only one of the following:
  • Dolby surround using 7 regular speakers plus the four overheads, or
  • DOLBY ATMOS mode which will include a flag denoting which 11 speakers the sound plays out of (wides or not wides)

Doesn't that seem correct? It seems to be the only possibility if on page 210 it states that only ATMOS and Dolby surround modes support 11.1 with one outboard amp (which is what seems to be pictured on page 43), no? Otherwise, without "wides", what would "output speakers [would be] automatically [switching] accordingly" as stated on page 43?

I'm a little confused, batpig, and I'm hoping you can clear this up a bit.

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post #1964 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Still don't understand what you're trying to say.
Dolby Atmos (overhead) preferred speakers location; above your head, on the ceiling (flat ceiling).
Jesus Christ man!

You were talking about Auro 3D, and I was putting a different perspective with them overhead speakers, which I consider a very intelligent and solid acoustic sound directivity (object) move from Dolby's part based on their smart studies.
The ceiling is a better spot to put speakers than the front Height ones from Audyssey DSX, DTS Neo:X, Dolby Pro Logic IIz. ...In my intelligent and calculated opinion.

Wake up Markus!

Did you ever experience Auro 3D? ...Any type of sound manipulation on them above ear level speakers, in front, side, and rear?
Me neither. And I would love too; who knows, maybe it is much better than Dolby Atmos?

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post #1965 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:20 PM
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Yes, but "vise-grip, inside a pair of headphones, locked" are the limitations of sound reproduction as we know it and it won't change any time soon.
That's true; we are slave of our positions.

* Audyssey tried to free us. ...And they did too.
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post #1966 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by steven13 View Post
I read in an "Auro 3D-FAQ" (http://www.grobi-shop.tv/seiten/Auro3D_FAQ.pdf) that we will soon see an Auro 3D capable Receiver from Denon (and Marantz and some others). This statement is obviously from the owner/inventor of the Auro system. So what Denon could that be? And what about DTS UHD?
I think there are complications surrounding the Barco/DTS partnership. I think DTS would want Barco to "stand down" Auro and allow DTS UHD to compete head-to-head with Atmos since they both use object based approaches.

You probably won't see DTS-UHD until next year's models. I don't think the studios would jump on board, like some are with Atmos, with only one super-expensive Datasat processor with DTS-UHD rendering. All the majors have to support it.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #1967 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That is always one of the meatiest charts in any Denon manual -- the relationship between surround mode and what speakers make noise.

That chart to me supports my assertion above that the layouts options are far more flexible. Note that ANY of the potential speaker outputs are potentially active with Dolby Atmos surround mode, and the note indicates the output channels (for double circles) are set according to the Speaker Config settings I was discussing above.

So, in other words, I beleive you could have (for example) an 11ch setup with Front Wides and two Atmos top speakers and all 11 speaker would make noise in Dolby Atmos surround mode.

Also note that "Dolby Surround" can scale to any speaker option EXCEPT Front Wides. This supports the idea that it's sort of an extension of PLII since no Dolby upmix previously supported Front Wides (just PLIIx for back surrounds or PLIIz for front heights).
Do you write them instruction manuals for Denon?
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post #1968 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Dolby Atmos (overhead) preferred speakers location; above your head, on the ceiling (flat ceiling).
Jesus Christ man!

You were talking about Auro 3D, and I was putting a different perspective with them overhead speakers, which I consider a very intelligent and solid acoustic sound directivity (object) move from Dolby's part based on their smart studies.
The ceiling is a better spot to put speakers than the front Height ones from Audyssey DSX, DTS Neo:X, Dolby Pro Logic IIz. ...In my intelligent and calculated opinion.

Wake up Markus!

Did you ever experience Auro 3D? ...Any type of sound manipulation on them above ear level speakers, in front, side, and rear?
Me neither. And I would love too; who knows, maybe it is much better than Dolby Atmos?
Auro also has top surrounds. If you want to place sounds there then top surrounds are mandatory. My point was that Atmos doesn't specify mandatory speakers in locations where the most benefit in terms of spaciousness (i.e. realism) can be had.

Markus

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post #1969 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:31 PM
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Man what are you smoking
That's between me and someone else.
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post #1970 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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That's true; we are slave of our positions.

* Audyssey tried to free us. ...And they did too.
Not really. Current multichannel implementations are single seat solutions. Spatial fidelty quickly degrades outside the sweet spot. Atmos with lots of speakers will be better.

Markus

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post #1971 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
A couple quick questions about Atmos and bass management for any who may know.

Are all the new channels considered full range? If so, how likely is it that a mixer would add deep bass objects to ceiling speakers?

Second, again if full range, what would this potentially add to the peak summed bass response sent to subs? I remember the theoretical max summed response for a 7.x system with all speakers bass managed could be something like 121 or 123. If we are talking about crazy set-ups like the DataSat, what kind if figures would we be looking at?
1. As far as I u'stand even though mixers would add deep bass objects, it won't change the way we hear deep sounds, i.e. we won't be able to localize them, so an 80 Hz or so crossover should still work fine with objects. Should we hear them would mean the harmonic contents of such deep objects fall into the range where localization of our ears starts to work again.

2. No immediate reply to this Q, but I do hope the engineers took care of planning the overall gain structure of the AVRs (no clipping!). BTW, what exactly do you mean by "something like 121 or 123"? Is it SLP at the MLP expressed in dB?
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post #1972 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post

Sorry for this long post, but this is as clearly and concisely as I can state it. Please suggest corrections if you think you see anything wrong. Discuss.
Very helpful post - thanks. I won’t bother with wides on reflection. Until I have a lot of Atmos discs, I will be using upmixing (Dolby Surround) for my thousands of legacy discs and if DS can’t handle wides then they won't get much use. Maybe best to wait for Gen 2 and see what that brings before I try to squeeze in a pair of wides.
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post #1973 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by steven13 View Post
I read in an "Auro 3D-FAQ" (http://www.grobi-shop.tv/seiten/Auro3D_FAQ.pdf) that we will soon see an Auro 3D capable Receiver from Denon (and Marantz and some others). This statement is obviously from the owner/inventor of the Auro system. So what Denon could that be? And what about DTS UHD?
I think I'd better wait few years till Dirac shows up in our receivers, in tandem with all three; Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D, and DTS-UHD. ...I'm sure we'll see receivers with all that decoding stuff inside, plus thirteen internal amplifier channels. ...By say, 2016-17? If I buy a Dolby Atmos receiver or SSP this fall, I would probably need to replace it (upgrade) in about 2-3 years?

Yeah, I'll wait @ least till 2015, some season ...
And meanwhile I'll keep @ it with Audyssey, remaining Atmosless till then. ...I won't cry, but I might get scared, from reading reviews of new owners. I'm already scared, from Keith's own experience.
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post #1974 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 01:47 PM
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I think like anything this is going to depend on the specifics of your room and budget. "Reasonable" means a lot of things to a lot of people. If you have a fairly basic, medium sized living room setup a 5.1.2 or 7.1.2 setup will probably be awesome and perfectly reasonable. If you have a high end dedicated home theater in a huge room with plenty of spending money, a fancy 32ch processor and a 15 speaker layout (9.1.6) might be "reasonable".

What we know is that for the current gen of AVR's, 11 channels is the max.
There's a pretty big cost differential between the units that support 32ch and the ones that support 11. My impressions so far is that most people are falling in-between those extremes. 11 channels is not enough, and 32 is just too many. The 32 channel processors also seem to offer a lot of functionality that isn't necessary. It feels like there should be a way to step up to 9.1.6 or maybe even 11.1.6 without that huge cost differential. Am I asking to have my cake and eat it too?
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post #1975 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 02:01 PM
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That's between me and someone else.
LOL Just in fun....

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post #1976 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Auro also has top surrounds. If you want to place sounds there then top surrounds are mandatory. My point was that Atmos doesn't specify mandatory speakers in locations where the most benefit in terms of spaciousness (i.e. realism) can be had.
True; Auro has overhead speakers too. ...They simply have that additional array of speakers higher than ear level (more speakers), like Audyssey DSX Front Height speakers. ...But a center front height one too, and height sides, and height rears. ...That's a lot of speakers Markus for our living rooms (many of us). That's probably why Dolby doesn't want to irritate too much the customers at the beginning; smooth transition.

But we can see where it's going... Our local theaters (Canadian country side) have about twelve speakers total, and we'll have eighteen in our own home theaters. We'll stay home for sure. ...And smoke weed.
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post #1977 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post
batpig, see the long post i just made. i want your opinion of my conclusion.

as for the statement i have quoted from you right here here, it seems that in that configuration (page 43) you options would be only one of the following:
  • Dolby surround using 7 regular speakers plus the four overheads, or
  • DOLBY ATMOS mode which will include a flag denoting which 11 speakers the sound plays out of (wides or not wides)

Doesn't that seem correct? It seems to be the only possibility if on page 210 it states that only ATMOS and Dolby surround modes support 11.1 with one outboard amp (which is what seems to be pictured on page 43), no? Otherwise, without "wides", what would "output speakers [would be] automatically [switching] accordingly" as stated on page 43?

I'm a little confused, batpig, and I'm hoping you can clear this up a bit.
Young Padawan, you have come far since the days of sitting your back surrounds on the washing machine

I'm not 100% clear yet either. Still trying to slice through the pages you noted (see my earlier post in which I attempted to decode some of it).

This is what I think is clear:

1) Dolby Surround will NOT matrix to Front Wide speakers (we both agree, clearly indicated in chart on pg 287)
2) Regardless of your layout, you can only have up to FOUR "high" speakers, but they can be virtually any combination of heights / tops / Atmos-enabled speakers

So for people running a fairly "standard" Atmos layout (no Front Wides, standard 7 speakers + 4 height/top type speakers) it's straightforward. Set Amp Assign to "Dolby Atmos" and choose your layout. Native Atmos content will play to all 11 speakers, and for any non Atmos content you turn on "Dolby Surround" and it scales up to your 11 speaker layout.

Now, the chart on pg 287 indicates that the "legacy" surround expansion modes (DTS Neo:X and Audyssey DSX) support Front Height and Front Wide but NOT the "Top" or "Dolby Enabled" speakers. So, in other words (again leaving out Front Wides for now) if you want to switch between Neo:X/DSX and Dolby Surround for surround expansion of 5.1/7.1 sources, you need to designate the first pair of elevated speakers (HEIGHT1) as "Front Height" speakers.

So, Neo:X/DSX will likely be unavailable if Amp Assign is set to "Dolby Atmos" since the elevated speakers will default to "Top" speakers. Of course there is enough placement latitude between Front Height and Top Front that a single pair of speakers would cover both purposes (legacy expansion and Atmos / Dolby Surround). But it seems clear that you CANNOT have Front Height speakers (used for Neo:X/DSX) and ALSO have four "Top" speakers (for Atmos) and switch as needed (i.e. six total elevated speakers). Four elevated speakers, max.

No, on to Front Wide speakers. Let's take the most complex case of a full 13ch connection with 7.1 + front wides + 4 elevated speakers. I think you are absolutely correct that you would need 4 channels of external amplification to accomodate all the possibilities (which makes sense to me, because each speaker is connected to only one output).

For example, one option would be to set "Height Speakers" to "4 Height Speakers", then set "Wide/Height2" to power the Top Rear speakers. To get 13 speakers connected as optional output you would then need to select the "Front & Front Wide" Pre-out setting. With this combo of settings, the nine internal amps will power center + four surrunds + four elevated speakers, and the four external amps will power front + front wides. Dolby Surround or Dolby Atmos mode will use the 7.1.4 speakers (wides are silent). In order to get the wides to play you would need to switch to Neo:X or DSX. Furthermore, in order to get the front wides AND the front heights playing (full 11ch Neo:X/DSX) the first two height speakers must have been designated as "Front Height" in the Height Layout menu.

(deep breath)

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post #1978 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
There's a pretty big cost differential between the units that support 32ch and the ones that support 11. My impressions so far is that most people are falling in-between those extremes. 11 channels is not enough, and 32 is just too many. The 32 channel processors also seem to offer a lot of functionality that isn't necessary. It feels like there should be a way to step up to 9.1.6 or maybe even 11.1.6 without that huge cost differential. Am I asking to have my cake and eat it too?
Yes, it's a huge price gap. And there is no in between right now. But, honestly, I do not agree with your impression that most people want more than 11 channels. Perhaps in the uber-enthusiast, well heeled circle, but I think a lot of people would be fine with a 7.1.4 layout in a home environment.

That said, I'm sure as we move forward some "in between" models at more reasonable price points will appear. I wouldn't be surprised to see a $5k type of processor with 13ch (7.1.6) or even 15ch (9.1.6) processing come down the pipe in a year or three.

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post #1979 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Not really. Current multichannel implementations are single seat solutions. Spatial fidelty quickly degrades outside the sweet spot. Atmos with lots of speakers will be better.
With AccuEQ?

...Better than Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which takes up to 8 mic measurement positioning (up to 32 with XT32 Pro)? ...From them Denon/Marantz products.

So which one really will sound more accurate* with Dolby Atmos; Audyssey or AccuEQ or YPAO or MCACC or ...?

* Satisfyingly enveloping.
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post #1980 of 14358 Old 07-24-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
….. But, honestly, I do not agree with your impression that most people want more than 11 channels. Perhaps in the uber-enthusiast, well heeled circle, but I think a lot of people would be fine with a 7.1.4 layout in a home environment.
...
Fair enough. I made the mistake of counting all the posts asking for something in between and assuming that was all the votes. That's a rookie internet mistake on my part

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