The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 67 - AVS Forum
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post #1981 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
There's a pretty big cost differential between the units that support 32ch and the ones that support 11. My impressions so far is that most people are falling in-between those extremes. 11 channels is not enough, and 32 is just too many. The 32 channel processors also seem to offer a lot of functionality that isn't necessary. It feels like there should be a way to step up to 9.1.6 or maybe even 11.1.6 without that huge cost differential. Am I asking to have my cake and eat it too?
Yes, it's a huge price gap. And there is no in between right now. But, honestly, I do not agree with your impression that most people want more than 11 channels. Perhaps in the uber-enthusiast, well heeled circle, but I think a lot of people would be fine with a 7.1.4 layout in a home environment.

That said, I'm sure as we move forward some "in between" models at more reasonable price points will appear. I wouldn't be surprised to see a $5k type of processor with 13ch (7.1.6) or even 15ch (9.1.6) processing come down the pipe in a year or three.

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post #1982 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Not really. Current multichannel implementations are single seat solutions. Spatial fidelty quickly degrades outside the sweet spot. Atmos with lots of speakers will be better.
With AccuEQ?

...Better than Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which takes up to 8 mic measurement positioning (up to 32 with XT32 Pro)? ...From them Denon/Marantz products.

So which one really will sound more accurate* with Dolby Atmos; Audyssey or AccuEQ or YPAO or MCACC or ...?

* Satisfyingly enveloping.
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post #1983 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
….. But, honestly, I do not agree with your impression that most people want more than 11 channels. Perhaps in the uber-enthusiast, well heeled circle, but I think a lot of people would be fine with a 7.1.4 layout in a home environment.
...
Fair enough. I made the mistake of counting all the posts asking for something in between and assuming that was all the votes. That's a rookie internet mistake on my part

Dude, are you made of leprechauns? Cause that was awesome!

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post #1984 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
LOL Just in fun....
I did not see any smiley. ...It's all good man.

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post #1985 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I think I'd better wait few years till Dirac shows up in our receivers, in tandem with all three; Dolby Atmos, Auro 3D, and DTS-UHD. ...I'm sure we'll see receivers with all that decoding stuff inside, plus thirteen internal amplifier channels. ...By say, 2016-17? If I buy a Dolby Atmos receiver or SSP this fall, I would probably need to replace it (upgrade) in about 2-3 years?

Yeah, I'll wait @ least till 2015, some season ...
And meanwhile I'll keep @ it with Audyssey, remaining Atmosless till then. ...I won't cry, but I might get scared, from reading reviews of new owners. I'm already scared, from Keith's own experience.
I was thinking the same thing, but for now without breaking the bank, I thought I would just get a tx-nr 636 for my den, I call it a den it's my little hide away room at the other end of the house. It's only a 10 feet X 15 foot room I don't need a high powered one in there. I think that a 5.2.2 would be good enough for that little room. Then I could save up for a 2nd or 3rd generation AVR down the road for my living room. That way I can play till then..... let's break this down firmware maybe September??? A couple Dolby Atmos blu-ray dics by the end of this year or the beginning of 2015 etc...etc.. so by getting the TX-NR 636 I can play without going broke... then I can choose what I really want later.

My main setup PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle Bic Acoustech speakers,MICCA M-8S FH/TM on wall / in ceiling speakers 2 Bic F12 subs
MY 10' X 15' DEN PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray / Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos Bose 161 top front on Ceiling Speakers

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post #1986 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I did not see any smiley, did you? ...It's all good man.
Awkward!

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post #1987 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:33 PM
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Why stop at ceiling speakers, why no floor speakers aiming up?

you could hear the lava from down inside a volcano like in lord of the rings?

I would do two floor speakers and 4 ceiling speakers


My final setup would probably be:
3 front L/C/R
10 wall
4 ceiling
2 floor
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post #1988 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
2. No immediate reply to this Q, but I do hope the engineers took care of planning the overall gain structure of the AVRs (no clipping!). BTW, what exactly do you mean by "something like 121 or 123"? Is it SLP at the MLP expressed in dB?
Yes. I meant SPL in db at the the MLP.
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post #1989 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I think everyone is hoping that Oppo add some form of Atmos decoding to one of their Bluray players. They have the reputation for innovation...
But how would you get all those decoded channels into an AVR? Can't do it PCM via HDMI without an as-yet non-existent new AVR. It would have to be analog out to the AVR's multichannel inputs (which are rare, and AFAIK never more than 8 channels -- never needed more than 8 before now).

Related to this, I have been pondering how one might implement an outboard room EQ solution on an Atmos setup, if one did not want to use the EQ facilities in his AVR. Dirac Live, for example. The issue of getting all those channels out of a player, through a digital EQ, and to the amplifiers is tricky. The only way I can think of to do so would be to place a (again, non-existent) box with sufficient input and output channels between the AVR and external amps. This would of course require another A/D -> D/A conversion, which is probably not ideal.
.
What would be awesome is if Oppo developed a basic multichannel preamp with silver disc spinner built in and with room EQ (Dirac Live perhaps). Again, something basic like the Emotiva UMC-200 or Outlaw Model 975, but digital-based only, with only a few inputs like they have now and plenty of pre-amp outputs for formats such as Atmos.

IOW, just take the 103 and add more sophisticated bass management and speaker setup options, room EQ, Atmos decoding and a handful more preamp outputs. And do it for around $1k, give or take. No problem, right . . .

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post #1990 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
Awkward!
I posted my take (useless) in reply to Markus. I have been made aware of it, and the embarrassment is all mine. ...Twice been made aware of it, thank you.
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post #1991 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
Yes. I meant SPL in db at the the MLP.
I doubt any HT system calibrated to reference level would do 123 dB in the Bass Department even with capable array of a subwoofer army. Someone please correct me on this.
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post #1992 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
With AccuEQ?

...Better than Audyssey MultEQ XT32 which takes up to 8 mic measurement positioning (up to 32 with XT32 Pro)? ...From them Denon/Marantz products.

So which one really will sound more accurate* with Dolby Atmos; Audyssey or AccuEQ or YPAO or MCACC or ...?

* Satisfyingly enveloping.
Audyssey won't improve phantom imaging in any way when the listener is outside the sweet spot. No EQ will.

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post #1993 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Why stop at ceiling speakers, why no floor speakers aiming up?

you could hear the lava from down inside a volcano like in lord of the rings?

I would do two floor speakers and 4 ceiling speakers


My final setup would probably be:
3 front L/C/R
10 wall
4 ceiling
2 floor
Don't forget, this is just the 1st generation of Dolby Atmos. Just wait and see.

Kind regards. Marketing Department
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post #1994 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:55 PM
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I read in an "Auro 3D-FAQ" (http://www.grobi-shop.tv/seiten/Auro3D_FAQ.pdf) that we will soon see an Auro 3D capable Receiver from Denon (and Marantz and some others). This statement is obviousely from the owner/inventor of the Auro system. So wht Denon could that be?
If one were really optimistic, it is possible (though not likely) that Auro 3D could be introduced to the new Denons (e.g. x5200w) via the upgrade/"add-new-feature" process detailed on page 247 of the manual. Besides the simple fact that this is extremely unlikely, there is also the issue of slightly different layouts (e.g. Auro has Center Height and VOG speakers that Atmos/DolbySurround/Neo:X/DSX don't support and I don't see how they could be implemented using the current pre-outs/speaker-terminals. So, probably a future model. The 5300 mayhaps?

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Very helpful post - thanks. I won’t bother with wides on reflection. Until I have a lot of Atmos discs, I will be using upmixing (Dolby Surround) for my thousands of legacy discs and if DS can’t handle wides then they won't get much use. Maybe best to wait for Gen 2 and see what that brings before I try to squeeze in a pair of wides.
Now I'm starting to get worried about this. Installing all this stuff on the ceiling is going to be no small task and with little Atmos content at the beginning early adoption may not be wise. My experience with height channels (using the Denon 4311, which incidentally does not have Neo:X) is that DSX can be pretty cool but sometimes detrimental to the point where I have to turn it off (usually with poorly mixed material). PLIIz is usually harmless, so it has been my go to set-it-and-forget-it setting because I can leave it on all the time (except for music), but on the other hand is so subtle I hardly notice a difference most of the time. Therefore, I assume the new "Dolby Surround" will be "good" like PLIIz was, however, the effect will probably be pretty subtle because it can be difficult to tease out meaningful height information from standard soundtracks. (I would guess, because the more aggressively you apply your upmixing, the more likely you are to have a detrimental effect that would make a user turn the upmixing off. And the less agressive you are with your upmixing, the more likely the user is to say "meh", not use it, and write on the forums that it "isn't worth it"... so a catch 22). However, I may just go for 7.2.4 with the 5200 anyway and use Dolby Surround until I get some Atmos content (as you have stated), just because I'm crazy like that... and it will be awesome once ATMOS content arrives.

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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Young Padawan, you have come far since the days of sitting your back surrounds on the washing machine

...

Now, on to Front Wide speakers. Let's take the most complex case of a full 13ch connection with 7.1 + front wides + 4 elevated speakers. I think you are absolutely correct that you would need 4 channels of external amplification to accomodate all the possibilities (which makes sense to me, because each speaker is connected to only one output).

For example, one option would be to set "Height Speakers" to "4 Height Speakers", then set "Wide/Height2" to power the Top Rear speakers. To get 13 speakers connected as optional output you would then need to select the "Front & Front Wide" Pre-out setting. With this combo of settings, the nine internal amps will power center + four surrunds + four elevated speakers, and the four external amps will power front + front wides. Dolby Surround or Dolby Atmos mode will use the 7.1.4 speakers (wides are silent). In order to get the wides to play you would need to switch to Neo:X or DSX. Furthermore, in order to get the front wides AND the front heights playing (full 11ch Neo:X/DSX) the first two height speakers must have been designated as "Front Height" in the Height Layout menu.

(deep breath)
Thanks batpig. I learned how to read these Denon manuals after extensive training from your tutorials and expertise.

The one thing I still am not clear on is this:


On page 287, there is a double circle next to "Front Wide L/R" on the line labelled "Dolby Atmos" which implies that under some set of circumstances, sound can come out of the Wide channels when playing native Atmos content.

On page 43, it says "You can connect speakers for up to 13-channels for MAIN ZONE by using an external power amplifier. When you connect speakers for 12 or more channels, the output speakers automatically switch according to the input signal and sound mode."

On page 210 under the section "When “Height Speakers” is set to “4 Height Speakers” and “Wide/Height2” is set to “Front Wide”, it states that "When one set of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can be output when Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back."

My question is, under what circumstance would sound come out of the Wide speakers when playing true ATMOS content?

The only answer I can think of is if you have ONLY have one pair of heights and a pair of wides (i.e. 9.2.2) and you are playing native ATMOS content, it will map "object" data to the wides. However if you have four ceiling speakers *and* wides, it will always play to the four ceiling speakers and never the wides.

Hey, this is all mega confusing, but at least we are talking about actual things from the manual instead of speculation, like before.

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post #1995 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
I doubt any HT system calibrated to reference level would do 123 dB in the Bass Department even with capable array of a subwoofer army. Someone please correct me on this.
Ummm....


My Dual 18" LLT subs 120dB down to 10hz

 

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post #1996 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:56 PM
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No mater what Dolby Atmos is going to cost us. ...Me, in my own room, I can handle 5.1.4 or 7.1.2
But I don't know for how long till the higher temptation: 7.1.4
And 9.1.4 is becoming too much, but great for people with larger rooms.

I'll stick with nine, and two subs. ...Smart for most people. And even 5.1.2 is a great jump into Atmos world.
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post #1997 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 02:58 PM
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Ummm....

Is this a correction Scott?
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post #1998 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Audyssey won't improve phantom imaging in any way when the listener is outside the sweet spot. No EQ will.
You told me before that you would love to have control over Pioneer's PEQ (MCACC). Could you please elaborate on that, and I know that right now it is not feasible.

We're all over the place with this new Dolby Atmos, and with Onkyo/Integra ditching Audyssey for AccuEQ.
...And people switching ships over to Denon/Marantz.
...And Yamaha (YPAO) also with a PEQ onboard.
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post #1999 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post
My question is, under what circumstance would sound come out of the Wide speakers when playing true ATMOS content?

The only answer I can think of is if you have ONLY have one pair of heights and a pair of wides (i.e. 9.2.2) and you are playing native ATMOS content, it will map "object" data to the wides. However if you have four ceiling speakers *and* wides, it will always play to the four ceiling speakers and never the wides.

Hey, this is all mega confusing, but at least we are talking about actual things from the manual instead of speculation, like before.
I would tend to agree with your conclusion. IF you have FOUR elevated speakers, they will be the ones that will make noise when you play Atmos content. With four elevated speakers indicated in the speaker config, there is no way to switch Atmos from 7.1.4 to 9.1.2 playback on the fly. You could only get 9.1.2 output (7.1+wides+tops) if only TWO elevated speakers (HEIGHT1) are present in the config.

I'm still unclear as to a question Sanjay posed about a 7.1.4 setup with Front Wides instead of Surr.Backs. I think, theoretically, it could be possible. There is no special setting for this mode but if the speaker config is set right I wonder if it would work.
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post #2000 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
You told me before that you would love to have control over Pioneer's PEQ (MCACC). Could you please elaborate on that, and I know that right now it is not feasible.

We're all over the place with this new Dolby Atmos, and with Onkyo/Integra ditching Audyssey for AccuEQ.
...And people switching ships over to Denon/Marantz.
...And Yamaha (YPAO) also with a PEQ onboard.
From documents provided by Chris Walker it seems that Pioneer has implemented a multichannel convolution engine in their AVRs. I've said I would like to be able to load my own FIR filters into such an AVR. FIR filters are different from PEQ filters although a FIR filter can be made to work exactly the same as a PEQ filter (but not the other way around).

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post #2001 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
From documents provided by Chris Walker it seems that Pioneer has implemented a multichannel convolution engine in their AVRs. I've said I would like to be able to load my own FIR filters into such an AVR. FIR filters are different from PEQ filters although a FIR filter can be made to work exactly the same as a PEQ filter (but not the other way around).
It would be great if a (hdcp etc) licenced product offered that sort of flexibility. Consumer electronics products don't seem to have that much horsepower though, was there any indication of the processing power it has available?
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post #2002 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:26 PM
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I doubt any HT system calibrated to reference level would do 123 dB in the Bass Department even with capable array of a subwoofer army. Someone please correct me on this.
I was referring to the theoretical max for summed speakers in a bass managed system. Whether this ever happens or not is beside my point.

This sums up what I was referring to.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1402484-subwoofer-spl-requirement-reference-117-34db-123-45db.html

This is more if a technical curiousity for me as, well I'm a bit of a bass head in training (only running dual commercial subs ATM and haven't done a DIY in years) and geek out in this. Thanks for responding though.

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post #2003 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Here is the manual page that shows "11.1 channel playback" setting with 13 speakers connected. The 13 speaker layout is 7.1 + 2 wides + four ceiling speakers, but it clearly notes that you can only play 11 at once and the output will "switch according to the input signal and sound mode".
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Here is the manual page that shows "11.1 channel playback" setting with 13 speakers connected. The 13 speaker layout is 7.1 + 2 wides + four ceiling speakers, but it clearly notes that you can only play 11 at once and the output will "switch according to the input signal and sound mode".
The other two speakers would be used for a zone, aka in your bedroom playing another source. 11.1 is top's for Atmos on this receiver.

I wasn't told this, but i do suspect the limit on speakers is the internal amp on a CE AVR. Then again a 7.1.4 is a theoretically correct number that is used in commercial theaters. What gets all fuzzed up when it come's to the commercial side, is that the audio processor is processing pure audio, it is not taxed with HDCP, up scaling, down scaling, it process pure audio in either digital or analog form. It further processes the audio so you can again, theoretically, end up with 64 discrete channels, if the master has been encoded that way. There the speaker's can become "what you can afford" and up to 64 channels, or "objects". All commercial theaters are wired for what is termed as "Home Run" wiring for the speakers. However in certain large, or what i call "Huge Azz place's" Daisy chaining speakers, a maximum of two per home run, for the surrounds, can be done without distortion, and both speakers essentially submit the same sounds to cover a larger area. To do this, much planning and preparation has to be done, as well the amp for that channel has to be sized for the additional speaker load.

So, theoretically, this is were the cost starts to drastically increase, by using the pre-amp out's of the AVR you could have say, a 7.1.8 or any combination for a large room. Yes daisy chaining speakers is a hot topic, it can be done without loss of audio quality. But no, this is not a cheap way to do it by any means. With the processing required by a AVR, speaker out's has always been limited by design.
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post #2004 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
It would be great if a (hdcp etc) licenced product offered that sort of flexibility. Consumer electronics products don't seem to have that much horsepower though, was there any indication of the processing power it has available?
The document didn't go into too much details. I asked him specifically about filter taps but never got an answer.

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post #2005 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
The other two speakers would be used for a zone, aka in your bedroom playing another source. 11.1 is top's for Atmos on this receiver.

No. The page I referenced in the manual has nothing to do with other zones. Did you look at the image? It clearly shows 13 speakers hooked up in the MAIN ZONE -- standard 7ch + front wides + 4 in-ceiling speakers. See the posts above in which we are theorizing about how it would actually be hooked up and what you could potentially switch between in use.

Everyone agrees that they can't do more than 11 channels of OUTPUT simultaneously ... but the max number of channels output doesn't necessarily correlate to the max number of speakers that can be hooked up (and then switched depending on surround mode). For example a stock Denon AVR-X4000 has 7 amps built in, but you can hook up a full 11ch DSX/Neo:X layout with wides and heights and surround backs and then switch between various 5.1+2 (either surr.backs, front wides, or front heights) modes on the fly by selecting different surround modes.

Once you had nine (let alone 11 or 13) speakers hooked up in main zone you wouldn't have any internal amps left for other zones, so they would have to be fed via Zone 2/3 pre-out to external amps. So, again, other zones are not relevant to what was being discussed.

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post #2006 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:42 PM
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CinemaAndy,

Sorry, I know almost nothing about the audio systems in commercial cinemas.

Am I correct that the amps are located at or very close to the speakers?

Don't some cinemas use "Dolby Connect" for their speaker systems? I have the (perhaps mistaken) impression that it's a networking solution, perhaps based on ethernet. Is that a "home run" system, too?

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post #2007 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I was referring to the theoretical max for summed speakers in a bass managed system. Whether this ever happens or not is beside my point.

This sums up what I was referring to.

Subwoofer SPL requirement for Reference: 117.34db or 123.45db?

This is more if a technical curiousity for me as, well I'm a bit of a bass head in training (only running dual commercial subs ATM and haven't done a DIY in years) and geek out in this. Thanks for responding though.
Not at all. Although I think the topic became a bit OT in the Atmos thread. Apologies to all.
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post #2008 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:49 PM
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[QUOTE=PoshFrosh;26014810]If one were really optimistic, it is possible (though not likely) that Auro 3D could be introduced to the new Denons...

Auro has developed there own AVR, they will not be launching on other brand AVR's for the foreseeable future. There Auriga AVR will be ultra-high end priced. You can read about it here,
http://www.auro-3d.com/consumer/auriga

There words,
"the Auriga™ combines in a single unit the best technologies in an elegant form designed for the discerning eye of the luxury residential customer."

Now back to the thread title, The Official Dolby Atmos Thread(home theater version).
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post #2009 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I think like anything this is going to depend on the specifics of your room and budget. "Reasonable" means a lot of things to a lot of people. If you have a fairly basic, medium sized living room setup a 5.1.2 or 7.1.2 setup will probably be awesome and perfectly reasonable. If you have a high end dedicated home theater in a huge room with plenty of spending money, a fancy 32ch processor and a 15 speaker layout (9.1.6) might be "reasonable".

What we know is that for the current gen of AVR's, 11 channels is the max.
I have stuck to separates for a while now, but this appears to show the potential benefit of running both; an AVR plus a multichannel separate amp to power the additional four (for now) top channels. I think Emotiva is going to be getting more business thanks to Atmos.
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post #2010 of 15712 Old 07-24-2014, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
You could only get 9.1.2 output (7.1+wides+tops) if only TWO elevated speakers (HEIGHT1) are present in the config.
That's how I read it, and I find this very encouraging. Going back to your earlier observation that the X5200 appears to allow much more layout flexibility than we may have initially presumed, it seems I would be able to plug the X5200 into my conventional 11.1 speaker configuration and benefit from the Atmos codec (7.1 + FW + FH) without having to install new ceiling speakers (default 11.1ch Amp Assign mode, p. 208). Granted, it won't be the full .4 Atmos experience, but it might suit me well enough--or else whet my appetite for the full Monty. And I get to keep my wides! Pls feel free to correct me if I'm reading this wrong.

As you say, it still isn't clear whether--if I go ahead and install four ceiling speakers--I could then use my wides in lieu of surround backs.

Still waiting to see the manual for the U.S. model--which I assume will be much more feature-rich.
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