The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 69 - AVS Forum
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post #2041 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio are not formats for mixing soundtracks, they're compression codecs to pack PCM into a smaller container.
Exactly. Those codecs don't offer anything new mix-wise, just the same soundtrack that was on DVD, with the only differentiator being better sound quality.

IF studios "don't think the average Joe cares about A/V quality", why did they start using those codecs for home video rather than sticking with Dolby Digital?

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post #2042 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 06:09 PM
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WEATHER REPORT INDICATES POSSIBLE RAIN ON THIS PARADE!

At one time I used to build 14'x7' control panels for multi million dollar industrial machines. My hobby has been A/V since the early sixties. So it dawned on me that if I find this newest technology confusing and complex, what does Joe Six Pack think, let alone his SO? Unfortunately we need JSP and his SO. These companies can't just rely on sales numbers from a nitch group as small as a part of the AVS Forum. That's including the fact that we might be the premier group on this planet regarding this topic.

Me thinks, this time, adopting theater technology for use in the home might have too small of an audience. While I've enjoyed leading edge and sometimes bleeding edge technology in my home, I can't say it is widely appreciated. That's based on infrequent comments from others about how good it is. The lone exception is my wife, who after all these years is finally into it, really into it.

It makes you wonder about the decision making process in some of these companies. Onkyo for example has tried to be price sensitive by adding the latest tech, Atmos while removing some already established features. If Onkyo wanted to replace my TX-NR929 with a logical replacement 939, it would probably be prohibitively expensive in that category. Lets say they added Atmos, bumped the 11 preouts to 13, maybe added two more amps, the necessary processor upgrade and a beefier power supply, without deletions, that's over two grand. That's not the top of their mid range, that's out of their mid range.

Maybe it's a marketing problem. Maybe they should revert back to putting the latest and greatest in their high end products first like they used to do, like Tesla is doing. Starting out at a commodity level this time might not cut it.

For JSP to do it right with his Onkyo TX-NR636, that's including speakers, any outboard amps, room considerations, possible wall or ceiling speaker installation, setup and source material, he might need a pro installation that he never considered but will warn his buddies about. Oh and lest we forget, software update.

I love what technology can do, but in this case it may have been bungled from the start. Unfortunately it arrived at a time when they're inundating us with 4K.

That scream you just heard was JSP asking for his iPod.

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post #2043 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
What do you mean?

All I'm getting at is that it takes extra prep time (one would assume) to get a track ready for consumer Atmos... if they think consumers don't care about 3D audio, they're not going to spend the time or the money except perhaps on really special editions.

We need this to a widely adopted way of mixing and re-mixing movies and scripted and nature TV shows.

The other thing that could kill object audio before it even begins is if they decide to charge a premium just like 3D releases.

Another point is that some studios could be in a holding pattern to see what DTS has to offer. All I can say is they better move quickly.
No, the extra prep time is included in the final budget for the production. It is set and sighed off once casting is complete. To make it easy, commercial audio and home viewing audio is decided in post production. This only changes if, after the fact, they want to switch from say Dolby to DTS for DVD/Blu-ray. This seldom happens, and as i said everything is done under contract, working outside the contract or changes to the contract cost time and money and very well may involve lawyers.

Studio management is very well aware of the revenue stream for home use. It is not a ignored market, like you claim it to be. If it was a ignored market, home videos would still be showing up on VHS. There is just as much a buzz when a movie goes from last run on screen to home viewing. The same people counting box office receipts are also counting disk sales and licenses sold to VUDU, Amazon, etc. Screen to TV has been well established and considered as secondary income. The theater is the bread and butter and box office sales are considered primary sales and are used to judge the health of the movie, namely the first 3 weeks.

Dolby and Auro entered into two year agreements with the studios that they would not offer there Atmos or Auro-3D to consumer use until after that two years expired. What you are reading about here, Atmos for the home, has been two years in the making.

Your comparison for premium charges is biased towards the fact 3D video required a 2nd or 3rd disk to be included. That adds "premium" price for the extra disk's, ads weight and increased tariff and shipping&handling charges. Price setting point for disk sales has always been what the market will bear. No one complained over the price of Blu-Ray, so they had no intention of lowering it's price.

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post #2044 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
That's up for debate. Actually i would want 2.0 spec HDMI. Atmos AVR's will have that on the high end units. Have you got to experience either Atmos or Auroa-3D?
No I haven't.
Here in the Great White North we love our Oreo cake cookies (the white cream inside the sandwich) and our aurorae borealis. ...Almos equally.

Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D are not in our local IMAX 3D Theaters, that I am aware of.
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post #2045 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
No I haven't.
Here in the Great White North we love our Oreo cake cookies (the white cream inside the sandwich) and our aurorae borealis. ...Almos equally.

Dolby Atmos and Auro 3D are not in our local IMAX 3D Theaters, that I am aware of.
California, Los Angeles, Hollywood (New York) are the central destination of new Movie technologies and moviements. ...Sound and Picture wise.
I know of a few places in the Great White North that has them, what's your nearest big city?

Oh you forgot to mention fire, can't have Oreo cake cookies without a fire.

IMAX has there own audio rendering, they do not have either Dolby Atmos or Auro-3D, but they got Quested amps and speakers and 15,000 plus watts.

You do know that IMAX is a Great White North company, right? And all of Christie Digital projectors are made up there.

"aurorae borealis. ...Almos" Since you didn't copyright that, im'a gonna use it.
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post #2046 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

IF studios "don't think the average Joe cares about A/V quality", why did they start using those codecs for home video rather than sticking with Dolby Digital?
Lol and when everyone keeps telling me that I can't or shouldn't notice the difference (between lossy and lossless) I sorta wonder why.
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post #2047 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Lol and when everyone keeps telling me that I can't or shouldn't notice the difference (between lossy and lossless) I sorta wonder why.
I wonder that too. Just because I can accurately tell between lossy vs lossless audio, the same group of people who always push whatever skewed agenda they have and claim that nobody can tell the difference (this is the same group of people who claims that all amps sound the same, all DAC sound the same, all cables sound the same, streaming and blu-ray look exactly the same...the list goes on)

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post #2048 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
In my opinion the issue is two-fold: we want more spaciousness (i.e. realism) and we also want precise placement of sounds (although in the past mixers claimed that discrete off-screen sounds would be a distraction). Atmos certainly covers more area around the listener but spaciousness requires speakers at distinct locations that Atmos for the home does not cover.
I would be keen to have your thoughts on best locations for speakers.

Re the FIR, is there a common protocol for exporting FIR filter parameters, such as Matlab, that a general convolution engine can ingest? Or would there need to be some de-facto standard created for that? Maybe the convolution engine simply informs what it can accept?

And it's one FIR for each output channel?

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post #2049 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 08:06 PM
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No, the extra prep time is included in the final budget for the production. It is set and sighed off once casting is complete. To make it easy, commercial audio and home viewing audio is decided in post production.
Seriously?

Neither of those statements are remotely close to being accurate.
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post #2050 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post
Check out the ceiling subs in this Atmos dubbing stage. The screen is 34'x14', the room dimensions are 59' long by 34' wide and 31' high.

PeterV

Subwoofers in the ceiling too. ...Post #2040

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post #2051 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
And then a total of five Atmos titles will end up getting released. Seriously, that's my worry. The studios don't think the average Joe cares about A/V quality... so neither will they. It's cheaper that way. You spend all this money upgrading equipment and speakers and your theater room... and then the titles just trickle out.
Maybe you guys should wait until August 12th before you post all of this useless speculation.

The studios have been very pro-active in regards to Atmos, both "versions.."

2 more Atmos mixing stages just went online in the last four weeks..

We are adding 2 more early next year...

The only reason this is happening because of our clients (i.e. the studios) demand...

It isn't cheap for us to do, so that should say something about the support we get from the studios to do so..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Some may even be sitting this round out in anticipation of DTS-UHD
Remember.... these aren't just delivery codecs like TrueHD or HD-MA..

Studios won't have a choice to release an Atmos track in DTS-UHD without a remix at this point..

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post #2052 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 08:19 PM
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If I missed this, sorry..

The information is slowly coming out...

Denon and Dolby Atmos Explanation

Shows the 9.1.2 config (7.1.2 + wides)
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post #2053 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I know of a few places in the Great White North that has them, what's your nearest big city?
Oh you forgot to mention fire, can't have Oreo cake cookies without a fire.
IMAX has there own audio rendering, they do not have either Dolby Atmos or Auro-3D, but they got Quested amps and speakers and 15,000 plus watts.
You do know that IMAX is a Great White North company, right? And all of Christie Digital projectors are made up there.

"aurorae borealis. ...Almos" Since you didn't copyright that, im'a gonna use it.
Victoria, on Vancouver Island.

* Auro 3D - ceiling speakers (Top layer): Voice Of God.

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post #2054 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Auro-3D has "layers of speakers" for it's 3D audio effect, Atmos utilizes "overheads" for it's 3D effect.

DTS-UHD is left out and is n active talks for using a combination Atmos/Auro-3D for it's 3D audio. And from what i hear, DTS does not have a lot of support for it.

The overhead use of speakers is "patented" to the roof by Dolby and Auro.

Pic 1, Auro-3D. Pic 2 Atmos. Pic 3 Atmos best! DTS-NEO. Atmos wins.
DTS Neo:X
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post #2055 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Subwoofers in the ceiling too. ...Post #2040
Wonder what subs and top speakers those are...?
I like how they sorta blackout the ceiling speakers .







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post #2056 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 08:35 PM
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Wonder what subs and top speakers those are...?
I like how they sorta blackout the ceiling speakers .

PeterV
SUBS: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...a#.U9HPjVboa2w

ATMOS SURROUNDS: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...0#.U9HP0Vboa2w

We use the same speakers...

Three subs overhead (1 over the mixers, 2 over the client credenza)
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post #2057 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 09:01 PM
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Not at all. Although I think the topic became a bit OT in the Atmos thread. Apologies to all.
I don't think it's off topic. I am asking a question about how bass management works with Atmos. How is talking about how Atmos works off topic in the Atmos thead?

Again, does anyone know if all the channels in Atmos are full range (I assume they are) and if so how are tracks with 9/11/32 etc channels going to impact the max SPL with redirected bass?
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post #2058 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I don't think it's off topic. I am asking a question about how bass management works with Atmos. How is talking about how Atmos works off topic in the Atmos thead?

Again, does anyone know if all the channels in Atmos are full range (I assume they are) and if so how are tracks with 9/11/32 etc channels going to impact the max SPL with redirected bass?
Yes.. the beds and all objects are full range.

They have processing in the cinema workflow that prevents overloaded clipping of the sub output..

While it would seem quite easy to increase the chances of having a problem, it's fairly easy to detect any future issues during the final mix because the Atmos must be down mixed for 5.1, 7.1 and LtRt..

It's really no different that what we do know.. we clip, we reduce...
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post #2059 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I wasn't told this, but i do suspect the limit on speakers is the internal amp on a CE AVR.
Andy.. I've no doubt you have cinema experience, but your posts are really misguided..

The limit on speakers is the has nothing to do with internal amps.... both Denon and Onkyo support 11 channels on the 9 amp products..

Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Then again a 7.1.4 is a theoretically correct number that is used in commercial theaters. What gets all fuzzed up when it come's to the commercial side, is that the audio processor is processing pure audio, it is not taxed with HDCP, up scaling, down scaling, it process pure audio in either digital or analog form. It further processes the audio so you can again, theoretically, end up with 64 discrete channels, if the master has been encoded that way. There the speaker's can become "what you can afford" and up to 64 channels, or "objects".
First off, commercial Atmos supports 62 discrete channels, in addition to two sub outputs (one for the LFE mixed optionally with redirected bass, the other for auditorium redirected bass.) Not 64.

It has nothing at all to do with how the "master has been encoded..."

That's the point of using objects.. it scales to the number of available speakers, not some arbitrary restriction during encoding.

7.1.4 is not a "theoretically correct number that is used in commercial theaters."

I don't even know what that is...

Not to get personal, but I'm also a little suspicious about your post claiming you heard Apes in Atmos on a consumer AVR/pre-pro..

You won't tell us what the venue was, yet you tell us the name of the film.

And to just happen onto an invitation when you were briefly in town?

To claim they switched seamlessly to Atmos Enabled speakers in the middle of a rain sequence, which is 5 minutes into the film, with no drop out doesn't ring true.

You must change many parameters on the AVR to do so, and the Onkyo system you claim was at the screening is only 11 channels... certainly not optimal for a screening room you claim costs 3 million dollars... if it exists, it would take a bunch of engineering work to redo all of the surrounds for 7.1 + 4 ceiling speakers..

Studios don't screen current releases on MKV files for anyone, and I'm not sure Dolby wouldn't have made you sign an NDA if you were at such a "secret" screening.. and D-Cinema projectors don't play copy protected content..

If you want to elaborate, that would be appreciated.

If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance..

Something just isn't ringing true, so in addition to you having a 2 month posting history, my 24 years in the business leaves me a bit curious, and highly suspicious..
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post #2060 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
SUBS: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...a#.U9HPjVboa2w

ATMOS SURROUNDS: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...0#.U9HP0Vboa2w

We use the same speakers...

Three subs overhead (1 over the mixers, 2 over the client credenza)
Wow, wouldn't use those @ home in my small living room, my rat (cute little hamster living in my ceiling) would kill me!

Did you see the movie 'Ratatouille'?
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post #2061 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Yes.. the beds and all objects are full range.

They have processing in the cinema workflow that prevents overloaded clipping of the sub output..

While it would seem quite easy to increase the chances of having a problem, it's fairly easy to detect any future issues during the final mix because the Atmos must be down mixed for 5.1, 7.1 and LtRt..

It's really no different that what we do know.. we clip, we reduce...
Excellent. Thank you.
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post #2062 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
Again, does anyone know if all the channels in Atmos are full range (I assume they are) and if so how are tracks with 9/11/32 etc channels going to impact the max SPL with redirected bass?
Don't see why bass management for the consumer version of Atmos would need to be any different for 9/11/32 outputs than what we currently have for 2/5/7 outputs. Upon decoding/unpacking the bitstream to PCM, channels and objects have content below the crossover point (as well as .1/LFE content) sent to the subwoofer output. Content above the crossover point is rendered to your speaker layout.

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post #2063 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The other thing that could kill object audio before it even begins is if they decide to charge a premium just like 3D releases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Your comparison for premium charges is biased towards the fact 3D video required a 2nd or 3rd disk to be included. That adds "premium" price for the extra disk's, ads weight and increased tariff and shipping&handling charges. Price setting point for disk sales has always been what the market will bear. No one complained over the price of Blu-Ray, so they had no intention of lowering it's price.

I can't see them selling enough to make it worth while, charging a big premium, especially if new AVR's will up mix to (more) Atmos/heights/ceiling speakers. The extra channels and the codec was all that was really missing.
I think its a pride thing, these guys need a way to fund their passions and their lifestyles. We're the beneficiaries and they make a good income in the mean time.
Just picked up Gravity 3D with the 2D Bluray for $20.00 (no ultra violet or DVD). I've already heard/viewed it on my system, and for $20 its an easy "Yoink".

Hopefully $20 price points will become common, boost sales and in turn overall sales margins.

2015 it is.
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post #2064 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 10:43 PM
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Don't see why bass management for the consumer version of Atmos would need to be any different for 9/11/32 outputs than what we currently have for 2/5/7 outputs. Upon decoding/unpacking the bitstream to PCM, channels and objects have content below the crossover point (as well as .1/LFE content) sent to the subwoofer output. Content above the crossover point is rendered to your speaker layout.
I'm not referring to how a crossover or bass management works. I am referring to max potential SPL from redirected bass to the subwoofer and the potential for overload clipping.

In a 7.1 set up, while the 115db at the MLP spec is oft refereed to as "Reference" for 0db with the sub, with the redirected bass from the 7 speakers the sub, if given a full-tilt signal where all speakers and sub are given a simultaneous, in-phase signal, potentially is looking at 123db due to the summed response (see my previous post with a link to a thread that discusses this more fully, along with the math. Posting from a phone so cribbing others work is much easier). As the number of speakers in this scenario increases, so does the summed response. So 32 channels would have a greater amount of redirected bass theoretically than 2/5/7. This creates (at least in my mind) the possibility for clipping and other issues. Hence why I asked. FilmMixer gave a tidy answer.

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post #2065 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
The studios have been very pro-active in regards to Atmos, both "versions.."

2 more Atmos mixing stages just went online in the last four weeks..

We are adding 2 more early next year...

The only reason this is happening because of our clients (i.e. the studios) demand...

It isn't cheap for us to do, so that should say something about the support we get from the studios to do so...

Speaking of studio support, is Sony going to get on board the object surround train, I wonder? It doesn't look like they've been as proactive in that regard as some of the other studios, unless they're ramping up for future releases. Heck, even many of their Blu-ray tracks are still 16 bit. Hard to believe they're the same studio that is really going gangbusters over 4k.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #2066 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
SUBS: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...a#.U9HPjVboa2w

ATMOS SURROUNDS: http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/c...0#.U9HP0Vboa2w

We use the same speakers...

Three subs overhead (1 over the mixers, 2 over the client credenza)
Hope those subs are secured really, really well. Yikes!

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #2067 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 11:08 PM
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Three subs overhead (1 over the mixers, 2 over the client credenza)
Are all 3 subs playing the same signal? Or are the L/R subs bass managed to the nearer surrounds? Would it matter either way?

Roger

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post #2068 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Speaking of studio support, is Sony going to get on board the object surround train, I wonder? It doesn't look like they've been as proactive in that regard as some of the other studios, unless they're ramping up for future releases. Heck, even many of their Blu-ray tracks are still 16 bit. Hard to believe they're the same studio that is really going gangbusters over 4k.
Culver City has Atmos/Auro speaker capability. And I am pretty sure also Atmos production tools.

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post #2069 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 11:25 PM
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To claim they switched seamlessly to Atmos Enabled speakers in the middle of a rain sequence, which is 5 minutes into the film, with no drop out doesn't ring true.
Dunno about all the other stuff, but if there were 2 AVRs, they could feed them the same signal, set one for the ceiling speakers and the other for the upfiring speakers, then switch between the 2 sets of 4 height speakers. Instantaneous.
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post #2070 of 9807 Old 07-24-2014, 11:37 PM
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Seriously?

Neither of those statements are remotely close to being accurate.
That's the way Universal worked. Don't know about about the rest.
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