The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 70 - AVS Forum
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post #2071 of 12086 Old 07-24-2014, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
As the number of speakers in this scenario increases, so does the summed response.
That might be true in a commercial theatre, where one bed channel is sent to lots of speakers (level will vary by number of speakers reproducing the same sound). But for home video, there will be 5 or 7 bed channels, with each one only going to a single speaker. Keeping bass from that many channels from clipping is already done in current gear.

The variable will be the max number of objects, not speakers. One object being panned through 20 speakers won't be louder than the same object panned through 7 speakers. But with each object that is added, more filtered bass ends up at the subwoofer output (irrespective of number of speakers).

As consumer audio went from 2.0 channels (during the Pro Logic era) to 5.1 channels to today's 7.1 channels, bass management compensated by padding down the subwoofer output. That will continue to happen as the number of discrete sources (objects) increases. Nothing new, just a continuation of what was already happening.

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post #2072 of 12086 Old 07-24-2014, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Victoria, on Vancouver Island.

* Auro 3D - ceiling speakers (Top layer): Voice Of God.
Grande Strawberry Hill 12 Atmos
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Looks like Atmos is a ferry ride away, Auro-3D, that's a road trip for you.
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post #2073 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dragonleepenn View Post


Wonder what subs and top speakers those are...?
I like how they sorta blackout the ceiling speakers .







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post #2074 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The variable will be the max number of objects, not speakers. One object being panned through 20 speakers won't be louder than the same object panned through 7 speakers. But with each object that is added, more filtered bass ends up at the subwoofer output (irrespective of number of speakers).
I do not think objects have any bearing on bass management. The final speaker feeds, after all the rendering/mapping/up/down/allaround-mixing is done, will go to the same bass management process used now. As you said, the scaling in the digital process will need to shift to prevent clipping when more speakers are involved, as happened already when we went from 5.1 to 7.1, but that's trivial. That shift is offset in the analog stages anyway, so no one feels it.

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post #2075 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Andy.. I've no doubt you have cinema experience, but your posts are really misguided..

The limit on speakers is the has nothing to do with internal amps.... both Denon and Onkyo support 11 channels on the 9 amp products..



First off, commercial Atmos supports 62 discrete channels, in addition to two sub outputs (one for the LFE mixed optionally with redirected bass, the other for auditorium redirected bass.) Not 64.

It has nothing at all to do with how the "master has been encoded..."

That's the point of using objects.. it scales to the number of available speakers, not some arbitrary restriction during encoding.

7.1.4 is not a "theoretically correct number that is used in commercial theaters."

I don't even know what that is...

Not to get personal, but I'm also a little suspicious about your post claiming you heard Apes in Atmos on a consumer AVR/pre-pro..

You won't tell us what the venue was, yet you tell us the name of the film.

And to just happen onto an invitation when you were briefly in town?

To claim they switched seamlessly to Atmos Enabled speakers in the middle of a rain sequence, which is 5 minutes into the film, with no drop out doesn't ring true.

You must change many parameters on the AVR to do so, and the Onkyo system you claim was at the screening is only 11 channels... certainly not optimal for a screening room you claim costs 3 million dollars... if it exists, it would take a bunch of engineering work to redo all of the surrounds for 7.1 + 4 ceiling speakers..

Studios don't screen current releases on MKV files for anyone, and I'm not sure Dolby wouldn't have made you sign an NDA if you were at such a "secret" screening.. and D-Cinema projectors don't play copy protected content..

If you want to elaborate, that would be appreciated.

If I'm wrong, I apologize in advance..

Something just isn't ringing true, so in addition to you having a 2 month posting history, my 24 years in the business leaves me a bit curious, and highly suspicious..
1984 projectionist assist(first job) 1986 projectionist and card holding union member, 17 theater pool. 1987 became member of IATSE(The International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts of the United States, Its Territories and Canada) for continuing work and experience in other than a projection booth. 1989 went to work for Universal Studios, LA distribution department. Left Universal in 2002 as head of distribution and went into partnership with my brother in law(Who by the way, is the son of a well known director) building cinemas, nation wide, now just state wide and maintenance.

Do i get the job?

Or do you NEED me to post pictures of me with people you call BOSS?

Now mister, show me what you know.

More to the point, if you don't like my post, don't read them.
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post #2076 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I do not think objects have any bearing on bass management.
Just as adding channels required a shift to prevent clipping, you don't think adding more simultaneous objects (each potentially full scale) will require a similar shift? Not saying it is any more complicated than the current approach, but 1 object vs 20 objects will load the subwoofer output differently.

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post #2077 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Just as adding channels required a shift to prevent clipping, you don't think adding more simultaneous objects (each potentially full scale) will require a similar shift? Not saying it is any more complicated than the current approach, but 1 object vs 20 objects will load the subwoofer output differently.
I would guess output level (percentage?) is part of object-metadata. This will tell the processor how to mix in each individual object relative to the rest of the objects/embedded sound). The same way amount of speakers will indicate the output level of each indivdual speaker to get end-result at reference level (for viewer).

Hence, speaker output is controlled by amount of speakers in total to control output level of each individual channels mix-result. The object is controlled during mix of each channel.

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post #2078 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 12:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I would say that 24 + 10 should cover most users nicely, don't you?
Yes but how many mixers will rely on speaker locations that aren't guaranteed to be available in any playback environment?

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post #2079 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 01:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
pic 3, is what i prefer.
Nice! I used to work as a projectionist when I was a teenager. The theater had a twin Bauer projector. From time to time the film strip popped out of the guiding roller and 20 minutes of film on the floor created something that looked like a little ocean
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post #2080 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Berland View Post
I would guess output level (percentage?) is part of object-metadata.
Sure, but we were talking about filtering the low frequencies the subwoofer output. If there is only one object, that won't require adjusting the subwoofer output. But filtering bass from 20 objects and summing all that to the subwoofer will require an adjustment to keep that output from clipping.

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post #2081 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 01:35 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Just as adding channels required a shift to prevent clipping, you don't think adding more simultaneous objects (each potentially full scale) will require a similar shift? Not saying it is any more complicated than the current approach, but 1 object vs 20 objects will load the subwoofer output differently.
Even though there's more speakers, they cannot all go to full scale at the same time anymore. If there's 100 objects, the loudness of the soundtrack still has to correlate with the 7.1 core version -- that defines the max loudness. Unpacking the objects and rendering them around the room does not change their individual loudness. And any bass associated with an overhead object is first removed from the main 7.1, so it just enters the bass manager from a different path.

So, technically, there's no more bass in the Atmos rendered version than the 7.1.

Yes, there are some variables that may creep in, but only when an object is spread across more speakers than it occupied in the 7.1 mix, as the spreading uses a constant power law, but the bass summing does not. So there may be some electrical buildup, but really that only begins to be an issue when larger numbers of speakers exist, like a cinema. In a 7.1.4 system, it will rarely be an issue for any given object, and even less for the several objects that may exist simultaneously.

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post #2082 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
If there's 100 objects, the loudness of the soundtrack has to correlate with the 7.1 core version -- that defines the max loudness.
Ah right, forgot that the entire consumer Atmos soundtrack is delivered in core/downmix. Since the sound from ALL the objects is already in there, separating them out cannot make their combined total any louder. In that case, wouldn't low passing the backwards compatible 7.1 core (plus LFE) give you the subwoofer output, inclusive of all bed channels and objects?

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post #2083 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I would be keen to have your thoughts on best locations for speakers.
Side surrounds at ±60° and heights similar to Audyssey's DSX speaker location recommendation.

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Re the FIR, is there a common protocol for exporting FIR filter parameters, such as Matlab, that a general convolution engine can ingest? Or would there need to be some de-facto standard created for that? Maybe the convolution engine simply informs what it can accept?
A convolution engine ingests the IR of the filter as a sound sample, i.e. the "filter" is just an ordinary sound file.

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And it's one FIR for each output channel?
I'd hope so but the discussion is moot if Pioneer doesn't open up their AVR or the available filter length is too short.

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post #2084 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Ah right, forgot that the entire consumer Atmos soundtrack is delivered in core/downmix. Since the sound from ALL the objects is already in there, separating them out cannot make their combined total any louder. In that case, wouldn't low passing the backwards compatible 7.1 core (plus LFE) give you the subwoofer output, inclusive of all bed channels and objects?
Yes, that would be perfect IF the desire was to run all the height speakers as crossed over -- which should just be the only option. I mean, really, full range heights??

But the manual for the Denon shows every pair having the large/small option, so that dictates doing it the hard way.
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post #2085 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
We already got nine (Onkyo/Integra, Denon/Marantz, Pioneer), and eleven (Yamaha) channels of amplification. ...Adding two or for more is nothing, nowadays.
I don't see it in the near future, as the majority of users don't even use 7 channels...
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post #2086 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post
But how would you get all those decoded channels into an AVR? Can't do it PCM via HDMI without an as-yet non-existent new AVR. It would have to be analog out to the AVR's multichannel inputs (which are rare, and AFAIK never more than 8 channels -- never needed more than 8 before now).
I was thinking directly out from the Oppo to my power amps.

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What would be awesome is if Oppo developed a basic multichannel preamp with silver disc spinner built in and with room EQ (Dirac Live perhaps). Again, something basic like the Emotiva UMC-200 or Outlaw Model 975, but digital-based only, with only a few inputs like they have now and plenty of pre-amp outputs for formats such as Atmos.
Well, so long as it wasn't too much like the UMC-200, yes

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IOW, just take the 103 and add more sophisticated bass management and speaker setup options, room EQ, Atmos decoding and a handful more preamp outputs. And do it for around $1k, give or take. No problem, right . . .
That's what I was thinking - they are halfway there right now and it is possible to use the 103 instead of an AVR, hooked directly to power amps.

But as batpig said earlier, it's just way too much trouble really and for $1k it's possible to buy an Atmos AVR, all set and ready to rock.
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post #2087 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by PoshFrosh View Post


Now I'm starting to get worried about this. Installing all this stuff on the ceiling is going to be no small task and with little Atmos content at the beginning early adoption may not be wise. My experience with height channels (using the Denon 4311, which incidentally does not have Neo:X) is that DSX can be pretty cool but sometimes detrimental to the point where I have to turn it off (usually with poorly mixed material). PLIIz is usually harmless, so it has been my go to set-it-and-forget-it setting because I can leave it on all the time (except for music), but on the other hand is so subtle I hardly notice a difference most of the time. Therefore, I assume the new "Dolby Surround" will be "good" like PLIIz was, however, the effect will probably be pretty subtle because it can be difficult to tease out meaningful height information from standard soundtracks. (I would guess, because the more aggressively you apply your upmixing, the more likely you are to have a detrimental effect that would make a user turn the upmixing off. And the less agressive you are with your upmixing, the more likely the user is to say "meh", not use it, and write on the forums that it "isn't worth it"... so a catch 22). However, I may just go for 7.2.4 with the 5200 anyway and use Dolby Surround until I get some Atmos content (as you have stated), just because I'm crazy like that... and it will be awesome once ATMOS content arrives.
I tend to use PLIIz all the time too. I found DSX created a way too front-centric soundstage for my taste and pretty much destroyed the 'bubble'. I mostly notice PLIIz if I switch it off IYKWIM. I am wiring my ceiling for every possible potential combination of speakers I can think of - wire is cheap But I will go, initially at least, with 5.1.4 (no room for rear surrounds).
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post #2088 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 04:18 AM
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post #2089 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I tend to use PLIIz all the time too. I found DSX created a way too front-centric soundstage for my taste and pretty much destroyed the 'bubble'.
I do the same - either IIz or IIx for 5.1. I don't have DSX using Pioneer, but I tend to view NeoX the same way: too front-centric with more of the front stage being shunted to the heights.

I haven't decided yet on which arrangement or ceiling vs Dolby enabled. But if I go ceiling, I'd also try to put in for all positions, 4 of them anyway. Might as well get it all if going to the trouble. Switching cables on the AVR is the EZ part

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post #2090 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
He might be forgetting that Reference Level is applied to each speaker.
He might be forgetting that the subwoofer channel is one single channel when it comes to setting it up for Reference Level regardless of the number of subwoofers connected to it. Also he might be forgetting that the purpose of increasing the number of subwoofers connected to the subwoofer output is not to make that channel louder.
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post #2091 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I'm sure it was good. Question is, can it be better?

The inventor of Auro thinks that height speakers aren't as effective above 20-30 degrees elevation because our ability to hear height cues starts diminishing above that. Atmos goes for almost double that elevation in order to have meaningful separation between the surrounds and heights.

There's a legitimate discussion to be had regarding which locations work better for height, irrespective of content.
It could be better, of course. But, honestly, I am struggling as to how much better it could be in reality, having heard that scene. Of course, it was just one scene. It might be the only one for all I know that plays that way (hence their reason for choosing it).

As to which locations work better for height, surely if a speaker is placed, for example, on the ceiling almost directly above my head, won't that give a better impression of height than a speaker located much lower? Won’t the physical location of the speaker, high above me, automatically mean that I will hear sounds coming from that location? If this is taking us OT, we can discuss it elsewhere if you wish.
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post #2092 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Reading posts over the last couple pages, I just want to make sure I've got the newly discovered info correct about the height speakers.

IF you're doing a X.x.4 set-up, then you can use any 2 out of the 5 height locations: front height, front top, middle top, rear top, rear heights?
This is very, very relevant to my own situation, so I have a supplementary: assuming the above is correct, which is the best option to shoot for, all else being equal?
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post #2093 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
And then a total of five Atmos titles will end up getting released. Seriously, that's my worry. The studios don't think the average Joe cares about A/V quality... so neither will they. It's cheaper that way. You spend all this money upgrading equipment and speakers and your theater room... and then the titles just trickle out.

Some may even be sitting this round out in anticipation of DTS-UHD.
Isn’t the point that it takes no more effort for the studios to release an Atmos-mixed movie on Bluray than it did to already make the mix for the theatrical release? If that is the case, why would they not release every Atmos movie on Bluray? It's the easiest option for them.

You are surely not seriously worried, Dan, that all of this co-ordinated effort on the part of AVR manufactuers, speaker designers and manufacturers, Dolby themselves, the studios and so on would all have taken place and yet they would have overlooked content? Seriously?
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post #2094 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
What remains to be seen is how (if?) the rendering will change based on the layout designated.

For example, the Front Height range is 30-45 degrees elevation, whereas Top Front is 30-55 degrees. The midpoint of the former is 37.5 degrees elevation, for the latter it's 42.5 degrees. So if someone choose to use Front Height for the first pair (HEIGHT1) to preserve the option of DSX or Neo:X processing, does it assume that the pair of speakers is 5 degrees farther forward and adjust the rendering appropriately? Or does it just send the same signal regardless?
But isn’t it great that we have a range of potential speaker placements! Presumably, as they have specified a range, a good effect will be achieved anywhere within that range. I did ask Onkyo directly about this - I asked them what, within the range, would be considered as 'optimum placement' as, presumably, the rendering engine renders to one (specified but unknown (to us)) angle. Their answer was 'unsatisfactory' (aka 'we don't really know').
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post #2095 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
What do you mean?

All I'm getting at is that it takes extra prep time (one would assume) to get a track ready for consumer Atmos... if they think consumers don't care about 3D audio, they're not going to spend the time or the money except perhaps on really special editions.

We need this to a widely adopted way of mixing and re-mixing movies and scripted and nature TV shows.

The other thing that could kill object audio before it even begins is if they decide to charge a premium just like 3D releases.

Another point is that some studios could be in a holding pattern to see what DTS has to offer. All I can say is they better move quickly.
That is exactly what they are doing here in the UK. It doesn't seem to be killing it though.
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post #2096 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Collins View Post
WEATHER REPORT INDICATES POSSIBLE RAIN ON THIS PARADE!

At one time I used to build 14'x7' control panels for multi million dollar industrial machines. My hobby has been A/V since the early sixties. So it dawned on me that if I find this newest technology confusing and complex, what does Joe Six Pack think, let alone his SO? Unfortunately we need JSP and his SO. These companies can't just rely on sales numbers from a nitch group as small as a part of the AVS Forum. That's including the fact that we might be the premier group on this planet regarding this topic.

Me thinks, this time, adopting theater technology for use in the home might have too small of an audience. While I've enjoyed leading edge and sometimes bleeding edge technology in my home, I can't say it is widely appreciated. That's based on infrequent comments from others about how good it is. The lone exception is my wife, who after all these years is finally into it, really into it.

It makes you wonder about the decision making process in some of these companies. Onkyo for example has tried to be price sensitive by adding the latest tech, Atmos while removing some already established features. If Onkyo wanted to replace my TX-NR929 with a logical replacement 939, it would probably be prohibitively expensive in that category. Lets say they added Atmos, bumped the 11 preouts to 13, maybe added two more amps, the necessary processor upgrade and a beefier power supply, without deletions, that's over two grand. That's not the top of their mid range, that's out of their mid range.

Maybe it's a marketing problem. Maybe they should revert back to putting the latest and greatest in their high end products first like they used to do, like Tesla is doing. Starting out at a commodity level this time might not cut it.

For JSP to do it right with his Onkyo TX-NR636, that's including speakers, any outboard amps, room considerations, possible wall or ceiling speaker installation, setup and source material, he might need a pro installation that he never considered but will warn his buddies about. Oh and lest we forget, software update.

I love what technology can do, but in this case it may have been bungled from the start. Unfortunately it arrived at a time when they're inundating us with 4K.

That scream you just heard was JSP asking for his iPod.
JSP doesn't have 5.1 either. He has a soundbar. So it seems everything you say, which is a reasonable hypothesis, could have similarly been said about the move from mono to 5.1. Yet here we are with an entire and huge international dedicated forum, with hundreds of thousands of members, all avidly discussing where to go next with our hobby. I never quite see the relevance of JSP. JSP has never even heard of 5.1 and he isn't the target market for Atmos, or anything remotely like it. He doesn't even own a Bluray player - well most of the JSPs don't.

Same argument with music. JSP listens to MP3s on 5 dollar earbuds. But that doesn't seem to have killed the high-end reproduction potential for the rest of us.

Arguing that a product is 'niche' isn’t the same as arguing that there is no market for it. Rolls-Royce is niche in the automobile world. So is Ferrari. So is Lamborghini. Are those marques likely to disappear any time soon because Mr and Mrs Sixpack and their buddies will never be in the market for one? I don't think so. Niche is usually where the biggest profit margins lie too. Volume may be smaller, but margins are way higher. And companies often cater for both markets too. For example, Ferrari and Fiat. One overall company, two very different markets. And what is invented and used for one often trickles down to another.

JSP is important, but he is not the only player in town. And he is the one with the shallowest pockets
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post #2097 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
JSP is important, but he is not the only player in town. And he is the one with the shallowest pockets

I like that!
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post #2098 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post
I wonder what the upper limit on the number of channels that is reasonable in a home theater is? At some point it makes more sense to have an external decoder that is expandable rather than a single AVR doing all the work.

After 13 you won't get much benefit. I envision the ideal setup having 8 in each corner and 1 centered on the 4 side walls and ceiling. Where the center channel currently is will probably suffice for the front wall center. You could put one in the center of the floor also, but that would be bordering on ridiculous. I doubt this setup would ever be adopted since it deviates too much from the standard 5.1 setup we have now and you need to would have clear sight of each corner from the MLP.
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post #2099 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 06:54 AM
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I'd like to see a chart comparing divorce rate with the number of channels in a home theatre.

Krell Evolution 900e x 7

Bose Jewel speakers.

 

Jealous of my speakers?

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post #2100 of 12086 Old 07-25-2014, 07:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd like to see a chart comparing divorce rate with the number of channels in a home theatre.
Probably pretty low. It's more of a miracle how we got married in the first place considering our severe handicap we tend to call our hobby
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Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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