The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 74 - AVS Forum
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post #2191 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Huh? What's this about? I have no clue in all honesty.

If, as per the post, BluRay is superior in all respects, then the poster must prefer all those BD's that have been remastered with all the nice low frequency content removed. Example given - Master&Commander. There's no LF-punch left in the cannon duels on the BD.

So, I gave it a bit of a twist.

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post #2192 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I kinda expected Atmos to sound amazing in a multi-million dollar room designed for the purpose and I too wondered how it would translate to a small 6 seater HT with pretty ordinary looking speakers and subs etc. The result was breathtaking. It has to be experienced to be believed. And this was for the most part with Atmos-enabled speakers not physical ceiling speakers. I agree totally with you that it is always a good idea to get a good demo before buying. I had mine, and I can't wait to get the new AVR and install the 4 ceiling speakers.


What amplification and processing was used in the 6 seater HT Atmos demo?

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post #2193 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Now you are asking me for information, i can't provide. The executives that were there knew some couldn't keep there flaps shut, and the executive that said that was who invited me. I can't name people, places, or products. The product pictures i posted are well known. The one showing the display was in answer to my request about how the display would look, as i had not seen a close up of it.

The whole point was that Atmos for home, would work in larger room's, and as i said the prototypes were geared for Ultra-High end buyers. The price i heard for one front speaker started at $3,500. I'm 6 foot 2 inches, the front speaker's came up to my chest. Having 8 inch subs, 6 inch mids and i think the up firing speaker was 8 inch with a 4 inch mid. Nothing there was what i would consider small, not like Bose or somebody else.

This was geared for large private/home theaters. That was the whole point of the presentation. And it worked.
Andy, thanks for your reply, but I am still not clear. You didn't mention before, AFAICR, 'ultra-high-end'. I thought you were describing 'normal' HT gear that more or less anyone could afford - you mentioned getting "the same demo" as you had, but at some of the standard US retail outlets.

My question was straightforward I think - how would a home Atmos setup with 4 ceiling speakers work in a large, commercial-sized space?

I'm not asking you to break any confidentialities or anything and there is no need to name any names, but was the demo you mentioned using normal HT gear of the sort they sell at BB and Frys or was it ultra-high-end?


Quote:
Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post

The whole point was that Atmos for home, would work in larger room's, and as i said the prototypes were geared for Ultra-High end buyers.
I can't see where you said anything about the prototypes being for ultra-high-end buyers.

You said that the AVR being used was an "Atmos consumer model AVR that will be available end of year..."

And, as far as I can see from your original post, this is all you said about prototypes: "I really wish i had been allowed to take some pictures and video, but the answer to that was a big, fat "NO". And also since all the equipment i saw, was still in it's prototype condition i am not able to answer any who, what, or were's i can tell you when, Sunday."

No mention of ultra-high-end.

And I was right, I just checked, you did say that anyone could get a similar experience at BB etc, which is most definitely not the place for ultra-high-end

"I was told top electronics stores were going to have a similar mock up, Best Buy, Fry's electronics, etc. So i guess you can hear the same demo at one of them near you, this year. "


I'm sure you can see why some of us are confused.

I'm not sure where all that stuff about distribution came from! I could care less about how movies get distributed


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post #2194 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:14 AM
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In a recent soundandvision.com poll, the majority is still having 5.1 HT set-up.
I guess Dolby may have got it right with 5.1.2/5.1.4/7.1.2/7.1.4 to start with in consumer AVRs.

But then for some of us, we already have more than 5.1 or 7.1 set-up (I currently have 9.1). :-)

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post #2195 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Been following this thread for a while, pretty exhausting stuff.

I thought the whole point is that Atmos is backwards compatible, so if your 11.1 DSX/ PL11z heights and wide's are defunct then it obviously isn't.
PLIIz has been wrapped up into 'Dolby Surround' - the upmixing algorithm for Atmos units. You're not 'losing' it, you are replacing it with something (allegedly) better. I say 'allegedly' because I haven't yet heard the upmixer working.

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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post

Having built up an existing 11.1 system and added wides and heights at an immense cost I would not be happy to find they are obsolete.
They aren't. The heights can fulfil the Atmos function of 'Front heights' and the wides can still be used with Audyssey DSX, Neo:X etc if your unit has them, for legacy content for example.

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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
I see no reason why the wide's wont be suitable, as Dolby have now added them in commercial applications.
As Sanjay has been explaining, they haven't added Wides. They have added some additional speakers to fill the gap between the 'edges' of the screen and the start of the surrounds, to create a seamless 'all around the room' effect. They are also not placed at anything like the positions of the 'wide' speakers you refer to in your home setup. And they fulfill a different function too: your current 'wides' are designed to create 'spaciousness', the speakers you are calling 'wides' for Atmos are designed to fill a gap so that 'round the room' effects are seamless.

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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
The same applies with my existing front heights, although not in ceiling, they are on the front wall and at the wall ceiling junction, 10' from the LP
If indeed Atmos is backwards compatable I see no reason why they are not suitable for Atmos front heights, the only thing I should need to add is in ceiling rear heights for a 9.1.4 setup
Your front heights can be used with Atmos (assuming the angles work - see the diagram I just posted) for an Atmos setup which utilises Front Heights as below:

Front Height + Top Middle
Front Height + Top Rear
Front Height + Rear Height
Top Front + Top Rear (default)
Top Front + Rear Height
Top Middle + Rear Height


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post #2196 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by marky301067 View Post
What amplification and processing was used in the 6 seater HT Atmos demo?
We were told that they were Onkyo units but they were not visible in the demo room. They had to use a laptop to deliver the content because they wanted the ability to switch at will between Atmos speakers and ceiling speakers. Not sure what you mean by 'processing' - the processing that was done was Atmos. No other processing was used AFAIK, if that is what you meant.


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post #2197 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:23 AM
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Hi, batpig

Firstly, my apologies. I didn't read the X5200 manual but I've read your related posts.

I currently have a 7.1 set-up + a pair of Front Heights. Will I be able to use my current set-up with a pair of Atmos add-on speaker modules on top of my front main L/R speakers? (That is, 9.1.2)

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Yes, according to pp 208-209 of the X5200 manual (screen caps attached) that is correct.

If you are in 11ch mode and set "Height Speakers" to 4, then you can choose between:

Front Height + Top Middle
Front Height + Top Rear
Front Height + Rear Height
Top Front + Top Rear (default)
Top Front + Rear Height
Top Middle + Rear Height

Then on pg 209 it shows that if you select "Dolby Speakers" as the Height mode, you have even more options to mix Atmos-enabled speakers and the various height locations.
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post #2198 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ethan Ong View Post
In a recent whathifi.com poll, the majority is still having 5.1 HT set-up.
I guess Dolby may have got it right with 5.1.2/5.1.4/7.1.2/7.1.4 to start with in consumer AVRs.
I think that is exactly why they started the way they did with Atmos - to stay within the bounds of familiarity for current users and also to be able to offer an Atmos experience that works with just the 5.1 setups we are all familiar with (but with the substitution of Atmos speakers or modules for FL, FR and Surrounds). A setup like that will look exactly the same as a current 5.1 system, so anyone who has managed to get that past the Aesthetics Committee (aka 'wife') will be all set for Atmos too. Clever IMO.


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post #2199 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Andy, thanks for your reply, but I am still not clear. You didn't mention before, AFAICR, 'ultra-high-end'. I thought you were describing 'normal' HT gear that more or less anyone could afford - you mentioned getting "the same demo" as you had, but at some of the standard US retail outlets.

My question was straightforward I think - how would a home Atmos setup with 4 ceiling speakers work in a large, commercial-sized space?

I'm not asking you to break any confidentialities or anything and there is no need to name any names, but was the demo you mentioned using normal HT gear of the sort they sell at BB and Frys or was it ultra-high-end?
I guess, i didn't word it right. The products we heard were indeed Ultra-High-End stuff. However, this same manufacture is releasing a high, middle and low price product line. The equipment they used was very clear, excellent quality sound and room size was compensated for by a increase in volume, as i was told, over a smaller room. Now, i took that at face value. Bigger the room, the higher you set the volume, there maybe something else to it, i can't say.

The setup i saw, once finalized, will be similar to what you see at a BB or Fry's or whoever with the separate room and i guess a minute or so of content for demo. Kind of like they are or were doing with the Bose set up's BB had. Now my local Fry's store in Webster, TX, being close to NASA's JSC it's set up to resemble the ISS. So it's has three or four good sized rooms probably 15 by 20 or so, those rooms would make excellent demo rooms and i'm sure they will.

We were also told, that sound quality does not suffer from high to low price, that speakers and power output is what changes. Like every other AVR.

I think not only the CE's, but Dolby, has a lot riding on Atmos and they want to cover as much with it as possible for numerous configurations and room sizes.

It may start off with small systems, to some, but it will end up across a very broad platform once fully released.

And the above, is about as close to details, that i can get on this subject.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2200 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Andy, thanks for your reply, but I am still not clear. You didn't mention before, AFAICR, 'ultra-high-end'. I thought you were describing 'normal' HT gear that more or less anyone could afford - you mentioned getting "the same demo" as you had, but at some of the standard US retail outlets.

My question was straightforward I think - how would a home Atmos setup with 4 ceiling speakers work in a large, commercial-sized space?

I'm not asking you to break any confidentialities or anything and there is no need to name any names, but was the demo you mentioned using normal HT gear of the sort they sell at BB and Frys or was it ultra-high-end?




I can't see where you said anything about the prototypes being for ultra-high-end buyers.

You said that the AVR being used was an "Atmos consumer model AVR that will be available end of year..."

And, as far as I can see from your original post, this is all you said about prototypes: "I really wish i had been allowed to take some pictures and video, but the answer to that was a big, fat "NO". And also since all the equipment i saw, was still in it's prototype condition i am not able to answer any who, what, or were's i can tell you when, Sunday."

No mention of ultra-high-end.

And I was right, I just checked, you did say that anyone could get a similar experience at BB etc, which is most definitely not the place for ultra-high-end

"I was told top electronics stores were going to have a similar mock up, Best Buy, Fry's electronics, etc. So i guess you can hear the same demo at one of them near you, this year. "


I'm sure you can see why some of us are confused.

I'm not sure where all that stuff about distribution came from! I could care less about how movies get distributed
I see the problem now.

I, consider Ultra-High-End as consumer. Might be out of many's price range, but still consumer based, not commercial based.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2201 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Been following this thread for a while, pretty exhausting stuff.
I thought the whole point is that Atmos is backwards compatible, so if your 11.1 DSX/ PL11z heights and wide's are defunct then it obviously isn't.
How will I get Dolby Atmos movies?

We wanted to ensure that entertainment fans could get Dolby Atmos movies in the same ways they get movies now, on Blu-ray Disc™ or through streaming video services.

We invented new scalable algorithms and extensions to Dolby® TrueHD, our Blu-ray™ format, and Dolby Digital Plus™, which is used by leading streaming video providers. Both formats now support Dolby Atmos sound, meaning that you’ll be able to play Dolby Atmos movies from your Blu-ray player or through your favorite streaming service.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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Will Dolby Atmos enabled speakers work in my room?

Dolby Atmos enabled speakers can produce an incredibly accurate Dolby Atmos experience in many kinds of rooms. You’ll get the best sound if your ceiling is flat (not vaulted or angled) and made of an acoustically reflective material, such as standard drywall, plaster, concrete, or wood. While we designed the technology for rooms with ceiling heights of 8 to 9 feet (2.4 m to 2.7 m), our testing indicates that you can still hear incredible Dolby Atmos sound in rooms with ceilings as high as 14 feet (4.3 m), though the effect may become more diffuse in rooms with higher ceilings.

Recessed lighting fixtures, chandeliers, crown molding, and heating or air conditioning vents in your ceiling do not noticeably interfere with the Dolby Atmos experience.
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And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2203 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 04:58 AM
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If Dolby Atmos allows me to add more speakers, why do I see A/V receivers with just 11 channels?

Many hardware partners are building or planning to build Dolby Atmos enabled A/V receivers and speakers. Those partners decide what product configurations make the most sense for their customers. But the Dolby Atmos system itself is almost unlimited. If you have the space and budget, you can build a Dolby Atmos system with as many as 24 speakers on the floor and 10 overhead speakers. One of our hardware partners is planning to release an A/V receiver with 32 channels.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2205 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
PLIIz has been wrapped up into 'Dolby Surround' - the upmixing algorithm for Atmos units. You're not 'losing' it, you are replacing it with something (allegedly) better. I say 'allegedly' because I haven't yet heard the upmixer working.



They aren't. The heights can fulfil the Atmos function of 'Front heights' and the wides can still be used with Audyssey DSX, Neo:X etc if your unit has them, for legacy content for example.



As Sanjay has been explaining, they haven't added Wides. They have added some additional speakers to fill the gap between the 'edges' of the screen and the start of the surrounds, to create a seamless 'all around the room' effect. They are also not placed at anything like the positions of the 'wide' speakers you refer to in your home setup. And they fulfill a different function too: your current 'wides' are designed to create 'spaciousness', the speakers you are calling 'wides' for Atmos are designed to fill a gap so that 'round the room' effects are seamless.



Your front heights can be used with Atmos (assuming the angles work - see the diagram I just posted) for an Atmos setup which utilises Front Heights as below:

Front Height + Top Middle
Front Height + Top Rear
Front Height + Rear Height
Top Front + Top Rear (default)
Top Front + Rear Height
Top Middle + Rear Height
Thanks for your reply and insight Keith
I don't think I am that far off with my existing speaker layout.

I must say I enjoyed your Atmos demo review.
I do think we are on the brink of a new era in Home Cinema and looking forward to embracing it, probably in a second generation AVR or better still some form of stand alone processor which would enable existing AVR's to utilise Atmos.
Early days yet.
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post #2206 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Knowing Fox, the Apes master was probably collecting dust on the shelf since may of last year.
Well, not quite - my son & his partner worked on the "Apes" production in New Orleans at an old NASA facility and they were on site through November, and I'm sure there was a lot of post production work done after the main sets shut down. Still - as you mentioned - the digital process has certainly decreased the time it takes to move a theatrical release to home distribution.
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post #2207 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesmor View Post
Thanks for your reply and insight Keith
I don't think I am that far off with my existing speaker layout.

I must say I enjoyed your Atmos demo review.
I do think we are on the brink of a new era in Home Cinema and looking forward to embracing it, probably in a second generation AVR or better still some form of stand alone processor which would enable existing AVR's to utilise Atmos.
Early days yet.
You’re welcome! There seems to be a lot of flexibility wrt to speaker placement and the various options. Some of this information has only just come to light (thanks batpig!) wrt to the use of existing Height speaker setups for example. Chances are your existing Front Heights will be fine and will meet the specified angles. All you'd then need is an additional pair for Top Middle, Top Rear or Rear Height. This is based on current understanding of the Denon user manual and the config options below.

You could leave your Wides in place and bring them into use on legacy content, using DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX to drive them. After all, most of everyone's content for some time to come is likely to be legacy!


Front Height + Top Middle
Front Height + Top Rear
Front Height + Rear Height
Top Front + Top Rear (default)
Top Front + Rear Height
Top Middle + Rear Height


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post #2208 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post
Well, not quite - my son & his partner worked on the "Apes" production in New Orleans at an old NASA facility and they were on site through November, and I'm sure there was a lot of post production work done after the main sets shut down. Still - as you mentioned - the digital process has certainly decreased the time it takes to move a theatrical release to home distribution.
It's great to see a movie and to have some connection with the people who made it, even if it just via a 'third party' connection through AVS. I shall be popping my (commercial cinema) Atmos cherry tomorrow, watching Apes in the new, local Atmos theater. Great to know that your family members worked on it!


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post #2209 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by abrxx View Post
But surely Neo/Audessey Front Wide's are exactly the same?
Neo uses upmixing to extract a centre output from the front and side channels while Audyssey generates early reflections based on concert hall acoustics.

Neither one of those processes is used in commercial Atmos, nor are those fill-in speakers in a commercial cinema at the same locations that Neo and Audyssey have their wide speakers.

The consumer version of Atmos does render to wides, though for objects only, not channel beds. And Dolby's new upmixer apparently steers legacy content to all speakers except wides.

Sanjay
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post #2210 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Audyssey generates early reflections based on concert hall acoustics.
Does it? From reading http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/dsx I'd think it extracts information from the recording.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Neither one of those processes is used in commercial Atmos, nor are those fill-in speakers in a commercial cinema at the same locations that Neo and Audyssey have their wide speakers.
That's unfortunately true. Great benefits could have been had from making wides mandatory speaker locations.

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post #2211 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That's unfortunately true. Great benefits could have been had from making wides mandatory speaker locations.
Thus limiting the user base don't you think?

You said it recently... don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
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post #2212 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Does it?
From the Audyssey Blog:

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For years Audyssey has been talking about reducing the effect of unwanted sound reflections in the room with MultEQ. But with Audyssey DSX we are adding reflections? What’s all this about? The key word is “unwanted.” Sound reflections from certain directions are desirable because they improve our perception of the soundstage. But, in our home listening room, these reflections rarely come from the optimal directions. As a result they degrade the playback quality and that's why MultEQ tries to minimize their effect.

But, what if we could recreate the desirable reflections? Then, we can really feel more immersed in the scene. The most important direction for these reflections is from the sides and that’s what the Audyssey DSX Wide channels are designed to do. The algorithm looks at the content in real time and extracts from it the cues that we perceive from optimal side wall reflections. This information combines with the direct sound from the front and gives us an enhanced sense of soundstage width.
http://www.audyssey.com/blog/practic...e-audyssey-dsx
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From reading http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/dsx I'd think it extracts information from the recording.
So those side wall early reflections and proscenium early reflections are already in the recording itself?

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post #2213 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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^
They extracts spatial information from the recording and route it to new/other speaker locations but they don't generate them. Same applies to other up mixing processing.

Markus

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post #2214 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 08:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Thus limiting the user base don't you think?
More realistic sound reproduction would limit the user base? I don't agree.

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You said it recently... don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Not me, Sanjay likes to use that straw man. I'm more attracted by this phrase:

"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence." - Vince Lombardi

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post #2215 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
They extracts spatial information from the recording and route it to new/other speaker locations but they don't generate them. Same applies to other up mixing processing.
So you're claiming that when DSX is "adding reflections", they were in the recording to begin with? If I turn off DSX, those reflections will still be there, just coming from other speakers than the wides and heights? Even if I'm watching an outdoor scene from 'Lawrence of Arabia', those side wall and proscenium reflections were already in the recording?

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post #2216 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
So you're claiming that when DSX is "adding reflections", they were in the recording to begin with? If I turn off DSX, those reflections will still be there, just coming from other speakers than the wides and heights? Even if I'm watching an outdoor scene from 'Lawrence of Arabia', those side wall and proscenium reflections were already in the recording?
How much ouput do you get from DSX wides and heights when listening to a recording without reverberation, e.g. outdoor scene?

P.S. I didn't claim 'DSX is "adding reflections"' - you did.

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post #2217 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Does it? From reading http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/dsx I'd think it extracts information from the recording.



That's unfortunately true. Great benefits could have been had from making wides mandatory speaker locations.
No benefit to those, like me, who can't easily accommodate Wides. In fact, if they were mandatory I might not be able to even consider Atmos at all. Some 'benefit'! Markus, you often seem to conflate what you want personally with what everyone wants. Not so.
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post #2218 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
So you're claiming that when DSX is "adding reflections", they were in the recording to begin with? If I turn off DSX, those reflections will still be there, just coming from other speakers than the wides and heights? Even if I'm watching an outdoor scene from 'Lawrence of Arabia', those side wall and proscenium reflections were already in the recording?
"Adding reflections" (Audyssey's words) doesn’t seem to me to be remotely similar to "creating or generating" reflections. They would have said, surely, "extracting reflections" if they meant what Markus is saying they meant?


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post #2219 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 09:15 AM
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If, as per the post, BluRay is superior in all respects, then the poster must prefer all those BD's that have been remastered with all the nice low frequency content removed. Example given - Master&Commander. There's no LF-punch left in the cannon duels on the BD.

So, I gave it a bit of a twist.
Oh. Dang. I didn't know that and only buy bds myself since only watch them on 13' wide screen with Sony vw1100es. But would have atleast let a few different sources upscale the picture for a test since I think audio is just as important as the video.

I know off topic but what's the best way to upscale a DVD? Multiple stages normally? Like oppo bd player to xxxxp, then AVR to xxxxp, then Sony pj to 4k (last scale to 4k might not even be possible may only upscale from 1080p?) Or all in one step to that devices greatest scaling ability? I'll have to try it. I haven't watched a DVD on a pj in well over 5-6 years and haven't bought a DVD since bds were released.
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post #2220 of 8116 Old 07-27-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
How much ouput do you get from DSX wides and heights when listening to a recording without reverberation, e.g. outdoor scene?
With DSX, more than you'd think. Various people using DSX Wides have reported inappropriate reflections when watching movies.

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P.S. I didn't claim 'DSX is "adding reflections"' - you did.
Actually, Audyssey did.


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