The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 76 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2251 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Increasing spaciousness of what? Whether it Peter O'Toole in the middle of an open desert or Jürgen Prochnow inside a confined submarine, what spaciousness in those scenes do you want to increase that the mixer hasn't already put into the soundtrack?
Spaciousness depends on reverberation coming from SPECIFIC locations...

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #2252 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Spaciousness depends on reverberation coming from SPECIFIC locations...
Which needs to be present in, and created for, the content, not the playback system.
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post #2253 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I wasn't really speaking in turns of amplitude, if it's not loud enough we simply won't hear it, but more that we don't expect, or listen for, sounds from behind us as we are genetically programmed to focus our brain power toward what's in front of us being the predator species than we are.
So you aren't talking about sensitivity. Near as I can tell sounds have come from 360 degrees from the beginning of hearing. Either we are physically more sensitive to sounds from behind or not, but our emotional/physical/ fight or flight reaction to those sounds is simply something different than sensitivity to the sound.
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post #2254 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Which needs to be present in, and created for, the content, not the playback system.
They are not mutually exclusive, how could they?



http://seanolive.blogspot.ch/2009/10...confusion.html

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post #2255 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 12:45 PM
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Did I read that right? Nobody makes any money in those businesses and none of them are remotely connected
Markus...

No.. you didn't read that right, which seems to be an common problem for you.

You are getting more ridiculous with every post.

Where did I say that nobody makes money in these businesses..

You are the one who keeps tying it to a codec/platform..

You stated without any lack of clarity that:

"You don't see a connection between Dolby being successful with Atmos, studios making more money (or at least not less) because of it, those studios investing in new productions that are mixed in facilities that employ re-recording"

Yes.. I am saying that studios don't make any more money by mixing a film in Atmos... they spend more on the production side to do so, and we see a marginal increase in dubbing time... how did we all survive without it before it's introduction. If it was such a boon, they would be mixing everything in the format, and we'd have more than 2 stages up and running at this time..

What part of that don't you understand? I work for a successful company whose overall financial health is in no way tied to the success of Dolby and their products.

You insinuated that I had a vested interest in the success of Atmos... That I would substantially benefit both economically and personally.

Again, you ignored my question back to you to explain how I personally gain, and again how realistic sound reproduction would do the same for you..

If you don't know what a term means you should stop using it..

As with most conversation between you and I, I won't prolong the agony everyone else must suffer over your points you always insist your are right over..
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post #2256 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
So you aren't talking about sensitivity. Near as I can tell sounds have come from 360 degrees from the beginning of hearing. Either we are physically more sensitive to sounds from behind or not, but our emotional/physical/ fight or flight reaction to those sounds is simply something different than sensitivity to the sound.
Right, I wasn't talking about our physical ability to hear those sounds but how we react to them when we do hear them.
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post #2257 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
They are not mutually exclusive, how could they?



http://seanolive.blogspot.ch/2009/10...confusion.html
If it's not there in the original recording, no playback system will be able to create it.

I never stated they were mutually exclusive..

IMO, Toole's circle of confusion doesn't apply to the this discussion..

I know you'll say of course it does, so it's not really something I want to debate.
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post #2258 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I'd be curious if you any more sympathetic to his point of view after seeing 'Planet of the Apes' tomorrow. There are some distinct overhead effects, like a scene when some humans are hiding under a log and, during a close up shot of them, you can hear apes walking on the log above you. Don't know if you'll feel that sort of mixing decision distracts from the movie or reinforces the on-screen action. Or a little of both: 'I noticed it but I liked it'.
I'll look out for it - thanks. I suspect I will both notice it and like it. I don't personally find that off-screen sounds, properly done, with relevance to the story and the on-screen action, take me out of the movie at all. In fact, generally I find that they enhance the experience for me. And the extra immersion I have experienced so far with Atmos really blew me away.
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post #2259 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
If Dolby Atmos allows me to add more speakers, why do I see A/V receivers with just 11 channels?

Many hardware partners are building or planning to build Dolby Atmos enabled A/V receivers and speakers. Those partners decide what product configurations make the most sense for their customers. But the Dolby Atmos system itself is almost unlimited. If you have the space and budget, you can build a Dolby Atmos system with as many as 24 speakers on the floor and 10 overhead speakers.
One of our hardware partners is planning to release an A/V receiver with 32 channels.
That would be a premier in the world of AV receivers Andy.
Do you have more info in how them 32 channels would be distributed; like with a bunch of preouts?
...I'm trying to imagine and ... what are they; like 20 mains (floor and walls) and 8 overheard (top/ceiling) and 4 subwoofer channels (summed up for the .1 LFE)?
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post #2260 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Davefromuk View Post
Hi,

I've been following the thread with great interest having recently invested in a 11.1 setup but I'm not quite as confident as some around the scope of utilising front heights in conjunction with Atmos on the 5200w or indeed any other receiver.

Page 205 lists the Amp Assign settings with 11.1 and Dolby Atmos listed separately with references to pages 208 and 219 respectively. I think the fact that they are listed separately could be significant.

The page 208 11.1 configuration describes a front height and top middle combination sure, but the page 219 which is the Dolby Atmos page still only refers to combinations of top front and top rear or top middle.

I can't see anything which says front heights can be used with Atmos.

Am I just bring paranoid ?
I don't know. I am going by batpig's remarks. batpig is the acknowledged master of Denon-English translation and he seemed fairly sure that a combination of Front height and top middle/top rear was possible. I hope so as it is a configuration I may want to use myself. Best to double check with batpig - certainly don't take my word for it.
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post #2261 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
As with most conversation between you and I, I won't prolong the agony everyone else must suffer over your points you always insist your are right over..
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I know you'll say of course it does, so it's not really something I want to debate.
Nobody forces you to participate Can we get back to the actual topic?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #2262 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Davefromuk View Post
Hi,

I've been following the thread with great interest having recently invested in a 11.1 setup but I'm not quite as confident as some around the scope of utilising front heights in conjunction with Atmos on the 5200w or indeed any other receiver.

Page 205 lists the Amp Assign settings with 11.1 and Dolby Atmos listed separately with references to pages 208 and 219 respectively. I think the fact that they are listed separately could be significant.

The page 208 11.1 configuration describes a front height and top middle combination sure, but the page 219 which is the Dolby Atmos page still only refers to combinations of top front and top rear or top middle.

I can't see anything which says front heights can be used with Atmos.

Am I just bring paranoid ?
If you look on page 287 of the manual you'll see that front heights are active when Dolby Atmos is engaged.
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post #2263 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Incidentally, this talk about DSX (which isn’t really on topic for this thread) raises an interesting point which IS on topic (just).

Chris Kyriakakis has always said that sounds emanating from behind us are not as noticeable or perceptible as sounds emanating from in front of us - hence the DSX concentration on two additional sets of speakers, Heights and Wides, in front of us. Setting aside the strange logic of that - if it is true then one would have thought that Audyssey would have concentrated on beefing up the sounds behind the listener not swamping them totally with sounds from two additional sets of speakers at the front - it has also been called into question by many experienced listeners.

Interestingly, Wilfrid Van Baelen (inventor of Auro) is adamant in his recent interview with WSR's Gary Reber, that the exact opposite is the case, and that human beings are more sensitive, by about 2dB, to sounds coming from behind. He says that this has been reinforced by neural science experts, and the reason given for the phenomenon is that our survival in the past was dependent on us being acutely aware of sound from behind us, as we don't have eyes in the back of our head to warn us of approaching danger.

If this is so, and it seems more plausible, then maybe it makes sense that Dolby seem to be less keen on Wides and more keen on other sound source locations, including behind us, with Atmos?
That makes a lot of common sense. Good post Keith.
And don't complain to me because I quoted you entirely instead of giving you a chiclet gum (Like/click).
You have your way, I got mine. Besides it is not my usual custom. ...I do when I find a smart post that I consider a good read, not just for me, but for you too, and others. ...You're one of my favorite posters here @ AVS.
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post #2264 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Spaciousness depends on reverberation coming from SPECIFIC locations...
I'll ask again: you want to increase the spaciousness of what specifically? When playing back a soundtrack mixed in Atmos, do you want to create the impression of hearing it played back in a more spacious room? If not, then what do you want increase the spaciousness of?

Sanjay
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post #2265 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:36 PM
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Methinks that Marc (FilmMixer) and Markus should work together.
...In making/mixing great Dolby Atmos audio soundtracks for our Blu-ray movies @ home.
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post #2266 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but didn't FM have a successful career before Atmos was even thought of?
FM Stereo r.a.d.i.o.?
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post #2267 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Sure - I'm just the messenger though The interview, or half of it, is in the current issue of WSR and that was what Van Baelen claimed. Said he had researched it with all manner of 'men in white coats'. The concept is plausible - millennia ago it would have been important to know if stuff was creeping up behind you...
I really like Widescreen Review, and Gary Reber...with great articles and reviews and interviews easily accessible to the general public. ...Chapeau to him and his entire staff over all the years of its existence.
...Starting in the Laser Disc years to DVD and now Blu-ray.

Gary is always surrounded by some of the best writers and minds in the audio/video industry.
And all the great reviews and articles and interviews are made public so that we can all greatly benefit, like we do from Stereophile & HomeTheater Mag (Sound&Vision).
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post #2268 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
If you look on page 287 of the manual you'll see that front heights are active when Dolby Atmos is engaged.
You're right though now I'm more confused as that page lists every possible channel as being output in Atmos mode and also suggests wides can work with Atmos which hasn't been suggested anywhere so far as I know.

Just wondering why you have to select Atmos as the Amp Assign settings if it's so flexible.

I've had bad experiences with receivers not being as flexible as you'd expect/hope.
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post #2269 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Interestingly, Wilfrid Van Baelen (inventor of Auro) is adamant in his recent interview with WSR's Gary Reber, that the exact opposite is the case, and that human beings are more sensitive, by about 2dB, to sounds coming from behind. He says that this has been reinforced by neural science experts, and the reason given for the phenomenon is that our survival in the past was dependent on us being acutely aware of sound from behind us, as we don't have eyes in the back of our head to warn us of approaching danger.
Sensitivity is one thing, but I severely doubt it also applies to localization as we're missing the nose at the back of our heads to help by shadowing... The normal reaction to a sound behind us would be to turn around to look for it... Not remain with the back against it listening to where it is....

(Sorry if this has already been brought up in the posts I have yet not caught up with)

Edit: now that I have caught up it does seem that you the issue was addressed.

Under construction: the Larch theater

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post #2270 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:02 PM
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Nobody forces you to participate Can we get back to the actual topic?
Markus.. you insinuated that I gain both professionally and financially from Atmos.. that required a response.
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post #2271 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
Above/behind vs wider don't seem mutually exclusive so does that statement assume a fixed channel budget? i.e. given a limited channel count then you would prioritise rear/height over wide.
Yes. IF I've added the rears and all the heights I would want, then I would add wides. But if limited to 11 speakers, then no wides for me.

Sanjay
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post #2272 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Markus...

No.. you didn't read that right, which seems to be an common problem for you.

You are getting more ridiculous with every post.

Where did I say that nobody makes money in these businesses..

You are the one who keeps tying it to a codec/platform..

You stated without any lack of clarity that:

"You don't see a connection between Dolby being successful with Atmos, studios making more money (or at least not less) because of it, those studios investing in new productions that are mixed in facilities that employ re-recording"

Yes.. I am saying that studios don't make any more money by mixing a film in Atmos... they spend more on the production side to do so, and we see a marginal increase in dubbing time... how did we all survive without it before it's introduction. If it was such a boon, they would be mixing everything in the format, and we'd have more than 2 stages up and running at this time..

What part of that don't you understand? I work for a successful company whose overall financial health is in no way tied to the success of Dolby and their products.

You insinuated that I had a vested interest in the success of Atmos... That I would substantially benefit both economically and personally.

Again, you ignored my question back to you to explain how I personally gain, and again how realistic sound reproduction would do the same for you..

If you don't know what a term means you should stop using it..

As with most conversation between you and I, I won't prolong the agony everyone else must suffer over your points you always insist your are right over..
Unlike video 3D, there is no additional cost for Atmos. The sole cost of Atmos rests squarely on the shoulders of the theater owner. Unlike DCI, Atmos is not being forced down any owners throat, they upgrade, or they don't upgrade.

The average Atmos upgrade can start at $70,000 and go way up. The owner bears this cost. And for that cost he gets to hang a "spiffy sign" out front, and over the house door, that say" "Dolby Atmos Theater." So Atmos has been heard and discussed and like Dolby it's self, needs no introduction, as most are aware of what it is.

Atmos for the theater, was a way to get you to hit power on the remote and see the movie at the theater. The Studios and the theater owners liked that. Same as they like laser projection, as it increases the gap between Cinema and HT.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2273 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I'll ask again: you want to increase the spaciousness of what specifically? When playing back a soundtrack mixed in Atmos, do you want to create the impression of hearing it played back in a more spacious room? If not, then what do you want increase the spaciousness of?
I would like to have realistic sounding spaciousness. I find there's a great lack of it. And no, it's not because of my setup.

Markus

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post #2274 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
I wasn't really speaking in turns of amplitude, if it's not loud enough we simply won't hear it, but more that we don't expect, or listen for, sounds from behind us as we are genetically programmed to focus our brain power toward what's in front of us being the predator species than we are.
'Predator', with Arnold; perfect example of sounds emanating from behind and above and all around us.
And the DVD(s) is in plain compressed (highly Lossy) DD or dts 5.1 surround sound vanilla flavor (both versions are avail - got them both too).
While the Blu-rays (got them both too - 2D & 3D versions) with its High-Resolution Lossless DTS-HD MA multichannel 5.1 surround sound track is not that much better than the ones from their DVD counterparts (highly compressed multich audio tracks).

Now, Dolby Atmos for Arnold?
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post #2275 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Unlike video 3D, there is no additional cost for Atmos. The sole cost of Atmos rests squarely on the shoulders of the theater owner. Unlike DCI, Atmos is not being forced down any owners throat, they upgrade, or they don't upgrade.

The average Atmos upgrade can start at $70,000 and go way up. The owner bears this cost. And for that cost he gets to hang a "spiffy sign" out front, and over the house door, that say" "Dolby Atmos Theater." So Atmos has been heard and discussed and like Dolby it's self, needs no introduction, as most are aware of what it is.

Atmos for the theater, was a way to get you to hit power on the remote and see the movie at the theater. The Studios and the theater owners liked that. Same as they like laser projection, as it increases the gap between Cinema and HT.
All good points, but I think a couple of them are debatable.

I don't think there is any huge amount of consumer awareness about Atmos.

And I don't think there is any viable data to support the notion that it helps sell tickets in a meaningful way..

I only know of a few of us geeks that will go out of their way to hear it.

Luckily, it has been packaged with other upgrades, like reserved seating, large screen presentations, etc... I'm not sure if and of itself it would be a draw.. that is what I think keeps people coming.

Of course I'm a huge fan of it (and any other tools that give us more freedom in telling stories through sound...) But I understand the realistic nature of show "business."

I will say that it has been a great tool for exhibitors to help them create their own IMAX like experience (digital, not film, based IMAX...) Look at AMC's ETX and Prime as, well, prime examples of upgrades that justify the ticket price... and the exhibs don't have to pay a royalty to IMAX nor pay the additional concession "tax" IMAX gets...
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post #2276 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:22 PM
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you insinuated that I gain both professionally and financially from Atmos.. .
All the above rings true for me. No complaints from me.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2277 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:25 PM
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All the above rings true for me. No complaints from me.
Consider me confused...
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post #2278 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Spaciousness depends on reverberation coming from SPECIFIC locations...
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Which needs to be present in, and created for, the content, not the playback system.
...Or by the room itself. ...Like @ a concert hall.
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post #2279 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:37 PM
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'Predator', with Arnold; perfect example of sounds emanating from behind and above and all around us.
And the DVD(s) is in plain compressed (highly Lossy) DD or dts 5.1 surround sound vanilla flavor (both versions are avail - got them both too).
While the Blu-rays (got them both too - 2D & 3D versions) with its High-Resolution Lossless DTS-HD MA multichannel 5.1 surround sound track is not that much better than the ones from their DVD counterparts (highly compressed multich audio tracks).

Now, Dolby Atmos for Arnold?
Sure, I think that would be a very good soundtrack to have a Dolby Atmos treatment.
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post #2280 of 26984 Old 07-27-2014, 02:55 PM
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All good points, but I think a couple of them are debatable.

I don't think there is any huge amount of consumer awareness about Atmos.

And I don't think there is any viable data to support the notion that it helps sell tickets in a meaningful way..

I only know of a few of us geeks that will go out of their way to hear it.

Luckily, it has been packaged with other upgrades, like reserved seating, large screen presentations, etc... I'm not sure if and of itself it would be a draw.. that is what I think keeps people coming.

Of course I'm a huge fan of it (and any other tools that give us more freedom in telling stories through sound...) But I understand the realistic nature of show "business."

I will say that it has been a great tool for exhibitors to help them create their own IMAX like experience (digital, not film, based IMAX...) Look at AMC's ETX and Prime as, well, prime examples of upgrades that justify the ticket price... and the exhibs don't have to pay a royalty to IMAX nor pay the additional concession "tax" IMAX gets...
One of the things that i do, that really erases all the "bullsh&&" during the construction/redesign process, is to be at a theater(s) opening night. To be with the people and hear there comments. A Hollywood executive suggested this to me.

When you hear a bunch of excited 11 year old's at the box office window with there parents shouting "Get Atmos tickets, Get Atmos tickets!" That pretty much tells me, it's a home run for Dolby and all those involved in the process. And when you are in the house and the action is going on screen and you see people look up and comment's like "Oh my God! I thought the roof was falling down!" It makes you smile to be apart of that, even if it was not your ideal.

Atmos, Auro-3D, IMAX, and other IMAX encroaching large screen's. Is a way to sell thickets. It is what separates Commercial cinema from Home Theater.

IMAX, as it's own format, has always charged for it's use. The Hollywood studios approached IMAX, not the other way around. That gave, and still does give IMAX leverage in contracts.

For example, a theater without a large over head, there matinee price is $5.50. The theater keeps $0.50 of every ticket sold the first three weeks of the film and relies solely on concession sales. Week 4 see's the theater getting $1.50 per ticket. Week 5 $2.50 per ticket. Week 6 $3.50 per ticket. And before the film leaves the theater it is getting $5.00 from every ticket sale. By that time people are seeing other new releases, so that film is not drawing a huge profit to still being showed.

Now take a premium Atmos, large screen, 4K, Laser, whatever. There ticket price for the same movie at there matinee price is $12.50 per ticket. All the other mechanisms still apply, however this theater is getting $7.50 from every ticket sale. But, unlike the other theater, the premium theater offers more screens, mover food choices, lobby and auditorium ushers, projectionist on site, etc. But, still this extra money is going back into services offered, so in effect the premium theater is making no more than the cheaper theater on ticket sales. But, on the concession sales it is tripling the cheaper theater because it offers a fry grill or whatever.

Not advancing with the times has shut down plenty of cinemas in this country. There is plenty of pools and research to back that statement up. The head of the theater owners association made a statement awhile back, "If your not going Digital, your going out of business." I think this can be applied to all the new products coming out, including Atmos.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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