The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 80 - AVS Forum
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post #2371 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I mentioned a "sphere" as your future room few days ago, and Andy (CinemaAndy) said that it wasn't a bad idea as it is contemplated in some surround sound quarters. And I wouldn't be surprised that it actually exists, ...some Disney wonderland rides...
You'll have some monster bass trapping to do, though....

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post #2372 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I mentioned a "sphere" as your future room few days ago, and Andy (CinemaAndy) said that it wasn't a bad idea as it is contemplated in some surround sound quarters. And I wouldn't be surprised that it actually exists, ...some Disney wonderland rides...
A little bit off subject and to quote a saying, "Disney always seems to do, what they say can't be done."

The sphere concept is remarkable, in CAD, waiting for the full build.

Who knows, might be Dolby's next conception...

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2373 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 08:35 PM
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Perhaps less than you think; with openings to the outside of the sphere.
...Standing waves that can escape the space of the sphere?

* In reply to Nightlord, just above Andy. ...Outside of the sphere.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2374 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichLinton View Post
I've read every scrap of information I've been able to find on Atmos, and now "Home Atmos".

I'm of the opinion we're getting royally screwed, even more so than the failed THX experiment.

As an acoustical engineer, I can think of no science that would accommodate reproduction of the kind being done by movie theatre Atmos to be replicated by the speaker layouts I've seen promoted for Home Atmos. The theater installation of Atmos is barely at the beta stage, and there still is no evidence that the soundfield being created in each theater is anything like the soundfield in the dubbing room. Apparently Dolby's Emperor's New Clothes argument is enough for the studios, desperate to do anything gimmicky.

Pioneer, not a hotbed of acoustical or speaker excellence (no offense to their very qualified Andrew Jones), puts in a few ceiling-aimed drivers and expect rendering to take care of the rest? I think not. As someone remarked after one of the Atmos Home demos, "I guess Bose was right with all their reflected sound".

This premature launch by Dolby is clouding the work of the real professionals who are engaged in a home theatre solution using tools (DTS MDA, MPEG-H) that are being designed for fidelity and quality reproduction. Do I want to be stuck with 4K Blu-rays or UHDTV along will a lossy ******** audio stream as my only choice? And it's stunning that Hollywood would embrace this convoluted production stream that will be streamlined, in the fullness of time, by the real solutions that are still in the pipeline.

We've just come out of a long period of audio where portability became more important than fidelity. Fidelity is just reemerging as a desired feature in the production of music. Dolby is "first". Kudos. But it's crap. No rewards from me for crap. Let's move on. Nothing to see here.
Next time just say you support Sony and defunct SDDS and Sony's non stop tinkering with DTS to fit Sony's Lie-Ray ideology.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2375 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Nothing odd about sound from below if you're flying or in space... but what you're sitting on will be a bit in the way, so we need some AtmosFurniture that's sonically transparent too.
But space is a near vacuum. Nothing much to hear!
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post #2376 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 09:02 PM
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Some questions.

What should sound better, a 5.1.4 or a 7.1.2?

Can i run a 5.2.4?


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post #2377 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SMHarman View Post
But space is a near vacuum. Nothing much to hear!
Tell that to George Lucas.

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post #2378 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 10:43 PM
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Wow, gone a couple of days and hundreds of new posts.

Personally I find posts responding to many participants a bit tiresome, so I'll break it up into multiple posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
In my opinion the issue is two-fold: we want more spaciousness (i.e. realism) and we also want precise placement of sounds (although in the past mixers claimed that discrete off-screen sounds would be a distraction). Atmos certainly covers more area around the listener but spaciousness requires speakers at distinct locations that Atmos for the home does not cover.
Markus, on what basis do you equate spaciousness with realism?

What if the on-screen action occurs in an acoustically dead space?

I'm not as widely read in acoustics as I could be, but from what I've read, spaciousness is merely a subjective aspect preferred by a majority of tested listeners, particularly with regard to music; ergo processors' modes synthesizing the reflective characteristics of various music venues.

And why does there need to be physical speakers at the +/-60 deg positions? If there is supposed to be reverberant sound coming from those locations, why can't they be phantom imaged like other sounds?

Noah
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post #2379 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
As Sanjay has been explaining, they haven't added Wides. They have added some additional speakers to fill the gap between the 'edges' of the screen and the start of the surrounds
Aren't DTS Neo X wides at +/-60 deg, more or less half way between L/R and side surrounds?

So what's the difference?

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post #2380 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
I know about Atmos, but I must admit I don't care about Atmos at all relative to its availability in a theater. As far as home use is concerned, I will leave the Atmos implementation to the extreme fringe elements of the home theater crowd.
It doesn't seem like you left.
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post #2381 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
So, ironically, the use of additional speakers normally used to increase the usable listening area (sweet spot, if you like), is not so effective when the array speakers are individually driven. Perhaps CBT's are the salvation?
Not to continually harp on this, but can't CD horn speakers do a pretty good job of that?

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
One other interesting observation is that they showed several trailers and ads (yes we have to watch ads in the cinema in the UK), none of which were made in Atmos but all of the speakers seemed to be alive including the top ones. IDK if this was some form of upmixing or what but it was definitely there. It was very noticeable with the 5.1 trailers how differently the surrounds sounded, with sound just 'coming from the side' as opposed to the pinpoint precision during the Atmos movie.
Are you saying that you could tell the sound was coming from the speakers as opposed to creating an immersive soundfield with nonlocalizable speakers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
The post with the big letters does have a point you know!
Seemed like a bunch of ignorant and unsubstantiated carping to me.

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post #2382 of 8225 Old 07-28-2014, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
The model of revenue "sharing" is f'd up, especially with the advent of front loading.

As for my other point: you don't get movies with staying power like you did when home video was in its infancy due to the "sweep the money up quickly and get out" Hollywood mentality of film distribution. You kept the butts in the seats for months (if not about a year with some blockbusters) because you had a, usually, better quality product to sell.

Now it's all mass commodity driven. That is not good for quality storytelling whether it be books, films, or any other medium.
AMC typically doesn't change ticket prices in the first year after construction to "seed" behavior, said Mr. Lopez, but the admission fee goes up in subsequent years. Then, if a regular theater raises ticket prices 25 cents, tickets to a reseated auditorium might go up $1 or $1.25, he said.

Collecting those pricier tickets allows for some bargaining power with Hollywood studios. AMC can argue for better terms on how it splits ticket revenue with studios if it can show higher-priced sales are coming from its theaters. "We remind them of that all the time," said Mr. Lopez.

Costs quickly move beyond the auditorium, said Mr. Lopez, who realized at the chain's first reseated theater that customers in cushy seats wouldn't tolerate subpar bathrooms or lobbies. "If we're going to do this, we do the full monty," he said.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/now-a...ats-1404679140

And Atmos is a ticket sales draw, just like "premium seats or bathrooms."

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2383 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Markus, on what basis do you equate spaciousness with realism?
Anything that can be perceived in a real aural spaces is part of realism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
What if the on-screen action occurs in an acoustically dead space?
A mix does not need to use all the features possible at all times. For example, Atmos overheads won't play sound all the time just because they are there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I'm not as widely read in acoustics as I could be, but from what I've read, spaciousness is merely a subjective aspect preferred by a majority of tested listeners, particularly with regard to music; ergo processors' modes synthesizing the reflective characteristics of various music venues.
Happens in any space with any sound. Symphony halls are like effect processors for exaggerated spaciousness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
And why does there need to be physical speakers at the +/-60 deg positions?
Psychoacoustic studies have found those locations to be most effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
If there is supposed to be reverberant sound coming from those locations, why can't they be phantom imaged like other sounds?
Phantom imaging doesn't work well to the sides and it breaks down (sometimes completely) if you're not sitting in the sweet spot or turn your head.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #2384 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Brazilian View Post
Some questions.

What should sound better, a 5.1.4 or a 7.1.2?

Can i run a 5.2.4?


It depends of your room's dimensions and its overall arrangement (decor furniture ....)
...Of the numbers of listeners and their positions in the room; for full coverage.

Yes you can run 5.2.4 but the .2 is still only one LFE channel reproduced by two subwoofers, and whatever bass is redirected to them from the other five channels.

Some units permit stereo subwoofers, and some with even front and rear subwoofers, but they are more from the rarity type.

* A smaller room with not much space in the back, and mainly for one to three listeners on the main couch will benefit for a simple/efficient 5.2.2 configuration even. ...Or 5.1.2 because the middle number should technically remain @ .1 for that only one LFE channel, plus whatever bass coming from them other main channels (satellites).

And from 5.1.2 you can add two more on the floor/wall level to make it 7.1.2
...Or add two more on top instead to make it 5.1.4
...Depending of your room's overall size, the number of listener(s), and personal preference in sound dispersion/coverage and satisfaction. ...Ears tell best.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2385 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 01:01 AM
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- With space to spare in the rear: 7.1.2 setup.
- With restricted space in the rear: 5.1.2 (or 5.1.4 if you want to use all channels in a 9.1-channel receiver - sometimes wrongly called 9.2). ...Internal amplification included (9 channels), or if you want to add an additional stereo amp to a 7.1 channel receiver.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2386 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 02:00 AM
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Anyone think Denon will manage 13.2.6 (per pre-outs) by 2017?

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post #2387 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichLinton View Post
As an acoustical engineer, I can think of no science that would accommodate reproduction of the kind being done by movie theatre Atmos to be replicated by the speaker layouts I've seen promoted for Home Atmos.

Pioneer, not a hotbed of acoustical or speaker excellence (no offense to their very qualified Andrew Jones), puts in a few ceiling-aimed drivers and expect rendering to take care of the rest? I think not. As someone remarked after one of the Atmos Home demos, "I guess Bose was right with all their reflected sound".
Couple of questions: who says that Home Atmos is supposed to "replicate" commercial theater Atmos? What did you personally think after hearing Home Atmos? Not somebody who has heard Bose, you?


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post #2388 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post
This has got to be the best thread ever! The post with the big letters does have a point you know ! but I'm sure do to the super high expectations for Atmos, its to bad most post of its nature it will be over looked
It will more likely be overlooked because it contains so much misunderstanding and disinformation. Roger's response says everything that needed to be said I think and we can now follow MichLinton's own suggestion and "move on"


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post #2389 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 03:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Aren't DTS Neo X wides at +/-60 deg, more or less half way between L/R and side surrounds?

So what's the difference?
What’s the difference between the Atmos surround speakers in a commercial theater and the Wides in a HT? First, the Atmos speakers aren’t 'Wides' in any sense of the word used in a domestic context* - they are there simply to fill in a gap between the edge of the screen and the rest of the surrounds to enable seamless panning. And second, the angles stipulated for domestic Wides are nothing at all like the angles of those in-theater speakers.

As this was already explained, Noah, I have a feeling I have misunderstood your question.

*EG, Wides at home are for the extraction or creation or generation or derivation (pick your own noun) of reflections.


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post #2390 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Are you saying that you could tell the sound was coming from the speakers as opposed to creating an immersive soundfield with nonlocalizable speakers?
Not at all. With the Atmos content the sound was incredibly immersive but also rendered with pinpoint precision when required. That precision was to place a sound where it should be (based on the on-screen action) not where a speaker happened to be.

With the non-Atmos content, I was surprised that the top speakers seemed to be in use and wondered if some form of upmixing was being used. I don't think they do that in cinemas, do they? If not, then it was some sort of psychoacoustic effect. Please don't attach too much significance at this time to that bit of my report, as it is based on just one experience. I'd prefer to wait until I have seen a lot more non-Atmos content played in an Atmos theater before I come to any firm conclusion myself.
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post #2391 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 04:04 AM
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All the theoretical discussion is great...but I have a question on the practical side of actually implementing Atmos in the home

I'd like to know what some of you think about using mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets like omnimounts instead of actual in-ceiling speakers. Would be as effective? Would you point them straight down or slightly angled to the seating? Speakers like the NHT Superzero 2 or Martin Logan Motion 2/4's. Not as elegant as mounting in-ceiling, yes. But no worries about sound isolation, closed vs open back, and a lot more speaker for the money. Plus less installation cost.

As I'm discovering, good in-ceilings are not cheap, especially closed back ones. Comparison of typical mini-bookshelves vs typical in-ceiling:

4 M-L Motion 4's ~$1K. NHT SZ's would be $400!
Compare this to 4 good/excellent quality in-ceilings ranging from $1.5-6K! You can count on at least $300-500 ea for decent ones. And the price goes up from there.

Or is this a case of better to use Dolby enabled if you can't install true downfiring in-ceilings?

Thoughts?

Keith, I know you're considering some pro audio cinema style monitors mounted on a swivel bracket which aren't true in-ceiling mounted. not exactly the same but would you point them straight down or angled?

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 07-29-2014 at 04:13 AM.
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post #2392 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
All the theoretical discussion is great...but I have a question on the practical side of actually implementing Atmos in the home

I'd like to know what some of you think about using mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets like omnimounts instead of actual in-ceiling speakers. Would be as effective? Would you point them straight down or slightly angled to the seating? Speakers like the NHT Superzero 2 or Martin Logan Motion 2/4's. Not as elegant as mounting in-ceiling, yes. But no worries about sound isolation, closed vs open back, and a lot more speaker for the money. Plus less installation cost.

As I'm discovering, good in-ceilings are not cheap, especially closed back ones. Comparison of typical mini-bookshelves vs typical in-ceiling:

4 M-L Motion 4's ~$1K. NHT SZ's would be $400!
Compare this to 4 good/excellent quality in-ceilings ranging from $1.5-6K! You can count on at least $300-500 ea for decent ones. And the price goes up from there.

Or is this a case of better to use Dolby enabled if you can't install true downfiring in-ceilings?

Thoughts?

Keith, I know you're considering some pro audio cinema style monitors mounted on a swivel bracket which aren't true in-ceiling mounted. not exactly the same but would you point them straight down or angled?
I haven’t read anywhere that Atmos is biased more towards in-ceiling than on-ceiling speakers. I haven’t even considered in-ceiling designs - they are very expensive if they are to be any good, it seems, and I dislike the idea of them in principle, but this may be bias after hearing so many (a lot of my friends have them - WAF etc) and never yet having heard any that I would want to live with myself.

I also intend to angle my own on-ceiling speakers towards the MLP somewhat, although strictly speaking this may not be needed and remember that I am concerned mostly with one seat. In-ceiling designs do sometimes have a movable tweeter but, again, that idea does not appeal to me, although others may find that YMMV applies.

I have indeed pretty much decided to go with Tannoy Di5 DC speakers for my four top speakers. I like their size, for my room, and the fact that they use a dual concentric driver design, which I think will work well with Atmos and which I always enjoyed very much with Kef when I used their speakers (UniQ), and the Tannoys have a 90 degree cone of dispersion which I also think will work well. Also, they are the baby brothers to the Di6 DCs that Roger Dressler is using in his (larger) room and I admit to being influenced by Roger's thinking.

Because the Di5s are 'pro' designs, they don't have a finish that would win an Aesthetics award, but that doesn’t matter to me in a dedicated room that is lightproof and painted dark grey and black And perhaps because they are 'plain looking' shall we say, they are also remarkably good value for money. And they are very easy to mount as they come complete with a C-bracket designed for the purpose.


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post #2393 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
All in good humor Keith.
...Quoting long posts, and saying just few words. ...Ain't the end of the world yet. Almost, at most, atmos.
I wasn't so much commenting on your quoting a very long post, as such, as the adding of just 5 words to it, none of which contributed anything, other than to say you agreed with the post. This is of almost zero consequence to anything, so can we please move on from it?


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post #2394 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I have indeed pretty much decided to go with Tannoy Di5 DC speakers for my four top speakers.money...And they are very easy to mount as they come complete with a C-bracket designed for the purpose.
I do like the price very reasonable. the driver design and bracket are a plus.

the more I "research" mounted in-ceilings, the less enthusiastic I am about them. not saying I've decided one way or the other but as you say, there are disadvantages not including the cost.

Martin Logan has ones from ~300 to ~1200 each and none are closed back! good "audiophile" closed back ones from Totem are up to $1.5K each! no way I'm spending that kind of money for ceiling speakers to reproduce effects.

I'm also seriously considering using the top driver portion of Pioneer's Dolby speakers. I don't know if there's a hard wired crossover between their top and normal firing drivers or if the Dolby crossover is handled internally by the AVR. It makes sense that it's in the AVR otherwise, the top firing module idea wouldn't work, but a statement by AJ in his SW video clip was confusing on that point, at least to me

any more want to share opinions?

Steve
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post #2395 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I do like the price very reasonable. the driver design and bracket are a plus.

the more I "research" mounted in-ceilings, the less enthusiastic I am about them. not saying I've decided one way or the other but as you say, there are disadvantages not including the cost.

Martin Logan has ones from ~300 to ~1200 each and none are closed back! good "audiophile" closed back ones from Totem are up to $1.5K each! no way I'm spending that kind of money for ceiling speakers to reproduce effects.

I'm also seriously considering using the top driver portion of Pioneer's Dolby speakers. I don't know if there's a hard wired crossover between their top and normal firing drivers or if the Dolby crossover is handled internally by the AVR. It makes sense that it's in the AVR otherwise, the top firing module idea wouldn't work, but a statement by AJ in his SW video clip was confusing on that point, at least to me

any more want to share opinions?
I agree with you about in-ceiling designs. There just seem too many compromises involved to me. But they look better. If the installation was a living room, then I could perhaps live with them. But a better solution would be Atmos-enabled speakers IMO, having heard them now. Or add-on modules. In a dedicated room there is less need to compromise, so on-ceiling designs seem a better choice to me.

The Atmos module crosses over (to the main speaker) at about 180Hz. My understanding is that the crossover which enables this is in the speaker. Edit: On second thoughts, it can’t be in the speaker - otherwise the add-on modules wouldn't work, and it must be in the AVR. What is (Edit: also) in the AVR, AIUI, is some DSP which counteracts the possible directivity of some unwanted sound shooting forwards towards the listener, and AIUI, this was done based on research of the human pinna and psychoacoustics. I stress that this is my understanding.


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Last edited by kbarnes701; 07-29-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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post #2396 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 05:29 AM
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Mods are already getting annoyed by the numerous discussions about the upcoming Atmos feature in AVRs. So lets give this new format a home of its own in this thread.

I'll update this post with news as we go along.

First, here's some general information about Atmos so everybody is up to speed:
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...for-Cinema.pdf

Specifications for theaters:
http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...ifications.pdf

Dolby on Atmos for the home:
http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ing-room-near/
http://blog.dolby.com/2014/06/dolby-...ions-answered/

Information from Onkyo:
http://dolbyatmos.onkyousa.com

Dolby Patent Application:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/WO2014036085A1.html
With all the discussion on Dolby Atmos speaker placement, Atmos receivers, content coming what about Dolby Atmos supported headphones? I have Sony DP-RF6000 headphones that support DTS, Dolby Digital Prologic, Mpeg-2 aac. I really enjoy surround sound effect. Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers placement on headphones? Is that possible?
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post #2397 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 05:53 AM
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All the theoretical discussion is great...but I have a question on the practical side of actually implementing Atmos in the home

I'd like to know what some of you think about using mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets like omnimounts instead of actual in-ceiling speakers. Would be as effective? Would you point them straight down or slightly angled to the seating? Speakers like the NHT Superzero 2 or Martin Logan Motion 2/4's. Not as elegant as mounting in-ceiling, yes. But no worries about sound isolation, closed vs open back, and a lot more speaker for the money. Plus less installation cost.

As I'm discovering, good in-ceilings are not cheap, especially closed back ones. Comparison of typical mini-bookshelves vs typical in-ceiling:

4 M-L Motion 4's ~$1K. NHT SZ's would be $400!
Compare this to 4 good/excellent quality in-ceilings ranging from $1.5-6K! You can count on at least $300-500 ea for decent ones. And the price goes up from there.

Or is this a case of better to use Dolby enabled if you can't install true downfiring in-ceilings?

Thoughts?

Keith, I know you're considering some pro audio cinema style monitors mounted on a swivel bracket which aren't true in-ceiling mounted. not exactly the same but would you point them straight down or angled?

I think in ceiling would be better for many reasons. One is if you sit in a typical room with a 8' ceiling and you're ears are 4' off the ground, it doesn't give the ceiling speaker much room to disperse the sound. If the drivers are say 8" lower, that makes it even more difficult.


Another problem is with lighting. If you have in ceiling lighting, do you want speaker shadows? I guess it's not an issue if your room is a dedicated theater with the lights off, but if it's a family room, it may be an issue.


I have a cathedral ceiling so the whole speaker ceiling thing will require a lot of thought. I don't think Atmos is designed for cathedral or sloped ceilings.
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post #2398 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I do like the price very reasonable. the driver design and bracket are a plus.

the more I "research" mounted in-ceilings, the less enthusiastic I am about them. not saying I've decided one way or the other but as you say, there are disadvantages not including the cost.

Martin Logan has ones from ~300 to ~1200 each and none are closed back! good "audiophile" closed back ones from Totem are up to $1.5K each! no way I'm spending that kind of money for ceiling speakers to reproduce effects.

I'm also seriously considering using the top driver portion of Pioneer's Dolby speakers. I don't know if there's a hard wired crossover between their top and normal firing drivers or if the Dolby crossover is handled internally by the AVR. It makes sense that it's in the AVR otherwise, the top firing module idea wouldn't work, but a statement by AJ in his SW video clip was confusing on that point, at least to me

any more want to share opinions?
In-ceiling is preferable to on-ceiling because there will be no dip in the frequency response from the boundary behind the speaker (the ceiling in this case).

In- and on-ceiling is preferabe to ceiling-firing. Ceiling-firing speakers result a) in a high pass filtered direct sound from the location where they are placed (because of their directivity) and b) a delayed ceiling reflection. That ceiling reflection has to be louder than the direct sound otherwise it won't override the localization cue coming from the first arriving sound (precedence effect).
From what we know so far, Dolby applies HRTF-based processing to the signal to aid elevation perception. HRTFs tend to vary from person to person quite considerably though. We have yet to see how good the processing works for a larger group of people.
Ceiling-firing speakers have to be aimed correctly to produce repeatable results. I have measurements that show this. So speakers with adjustable ceiling-firing drivers are preferable.
In dedicated home theater rooms people might have absorption installed to eliminate the early ceiling bounce from the fronts. That absorption would have to go for ceiling-firing speakers to work.

Regarding the Pioneer speakers. The top unit is a separate speaker. There is no crossover between the front speaker and the ceiling-firing speaker other than what AVR bass management offers. Per Andrew Jones bass management has some Atmos specific behavior. Those ceiling-firing speakers will be set to small by default, i.e. they have a high pass applied at about 150-200Hz. The sound below that frequency isn't summed into the subwoofer channel but is redirected to the speaker it sits on top. For example, lower frequencies from ceiling-firing left top surround are redirected to left front main.
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post #2399 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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With all the discussion on Dolby Atmos speaker placement, Atmos receivers, content coming what about Dolby Atmos supported headphones? I have Sony DP-RF6000 headphones that support DTS, Dolby Digital Prologic, Mpeg-2 aac. I really enjoy surround sound effect. Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers placement on headphones? Is that possible?
We haven't heard anything about that yet. It's definitely possible and all the tools exist (personalized HRTFs, head tracking, etc.) to do spectacular rendering via headphones. I'm actually more interested in Atmos rendering over headphones than over speakers because speakers in rooms are generally a bad idea Way too many problems and tradeoffs that just don't exist with headphone playback.

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #2400 of 8225 Old 07-29-2014, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I'd like to know what some of you think about using mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets like omnimounts instead of actual in-ceiling speakers. Would be as effective? Would you point them straight down or slightly angled to the seating? Speakers like the NHT Superzero 2 or Martin Logan Motion 2/4's. Not as elegant as mounting in-ceiling, yes. But no worries about sound isolation, closed vs open back, and a lot more speaker for the money. Plus less installation cost.
IF sz2 has the same on-axis downwards tilt as the original one (which I used to have seven of myself), then highmounted on the walls would not need a very severe tilt, methinks.

I don't expect anything to compete with in-ceiling speakers of the same quality for this application until speaker manufacturers have had more time to try out atmos on their own sites and possibly found even better radiation patterns for more even effect over multiple seats.

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