The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 81 - AVS Forum
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post #2401 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
All the theoretical discussion is great...but I have a question on the practical side of actually implementing Atmos in the home

I'd like to know what some of you think about using mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets like omnimounts instead of actual in-ceiling speakers. Would be as effective? Would you point them straight down or slightly angled to the seating? Speakers like the NHT Superzero 2 or Martin Logan Motion 2/4's. Not as elegant as mounting in-ceiling, yes. But no worries about sound isolation, closed vs open back, and a lot more speaker for the money. Plus less installation cost.

As I'm discovering, good in-ceilings are not cheap, especially closed back ones. Comparison of typical mini-bookshelves vs typical in-ceiling:

4 M-L Motion 4's ~$1K. NHT SZ's would be $400!
Compare this to 4 good/excellent quality in-ceilings ranging from $1.5-6K! You can count on at least $300-500 ea for decent ones. And the price goes up from there.

Or is this a case of better to use Dolby enabled if you can't install true downfiring in-ceilings?

Thoughts?

Keith, I know you're considering some pro audio cinema style monitors mounted on a swivel bracket which aren't true in-ceiling mounted. not exactly the same but would you point them straight down or angled?

I think in ceiling would be better for many reasons. One is if you sit in a typical room with a 8' ceiling and you're ears are 4' off the ground, it doesn't give the ceiling speaker much room to disperse the sound. If the drivers are say 8" lower, that makes it even more difficult.


Another problem is with lighting. If you have in ceiling lighting, do you want speaker shadows? I guess it's not an issue if your room is a dedicated theater with the lights off, but if it's a family room, it may be an issue.


I have a cathedral ceiling so the whole speaker ceiling thing will require a lot of thought. I don't think Atmos is designed for cathedral or sloped ceilings.
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post #2402 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I do like the price very reasonable. the driver design and bracket are a plus.

the more I "research" mounted in-ceilings, the less enthusiastic I am about them. not saying I've decided one way or the other but as you say, there are disadvantages not including the cost.

Martin Logan has ones from ~300 to ~1200 each and none are closed back! good "audiophile" closed back ones from Totem are up to $1.5K each! no way I'm spending that kind of money for ceiling speakers to reproduce effects.

I'm also seriously considering using the top driver portion of Pioneer's Dolby speakers. I don't know if there's a hard wired crossover between their top and normal firing drivers or if the Dolby crossover is handled internally by the AVR. It makes sense that it's in the AVR otherwise, the top firing module idea wouldn't work, but a statement by AJ in his SW video clip was confusing on that point, at least to me

any more want to share opinions?
In-ceiling is preferable to on-ceiling because there will be no dip in the frequency response from the boundary behind the speaker (the ceiling in this case).

In- and on-ceiling is preferabe to ceiling-firing. Ceiling-firing speakers result a) in a high pass filtered direct sound from the location where they are placed (because of their directivity) and b) a delayed ceiling reflection. That ceiling reflection has to be louder than the direct sound otherwise it won't override the localization cue coming from the first arriving sound (precedence effect).
From what we know so far, Dolby applies HRTF-based processing to the signal to aid elevation perception. HRTFs tend to vary from person to person quite considerably though. We have yet to see how good the processing works for a larger group of people.
Ceiling-firing speakers have to be aimed correctly to produce repeatable results. I have measurements that show this. So speakers with adjustable ceiling-firing drivers are preferable.
In dedicated home theater rooms people might have absorption installed to eliminate the early ceiling bounce from the fronts. That absorption would have to go for ceiling-firing speakers to work.

Regarding the Pioneer speakers. The top unit is a separate speaker. There is no crossover between the front speaker and the ceiling-firing speaker other than what AVR bass management offers. Per Andrew Jones bass management has some Atmos specific behavior. Those ceiling-firing speakers will be set to small by default, i.e. they have a high pass applied at about 150-200Hz. The sound below that frequency isn't summed into the subwoofer channel but is redirected to the speaker it sits on top. For example, lower frequencies from ceiling-firing left top surround are redirected to left front main.
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post #2403 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BillFree View Post
With all the discussion on Dolby Atmos speaker placement, Atmos receivers, content coming what about Dolby Atmos supported headphones? I have Sony DP-RF6000 headphones that support DTS, Dolby Digital Prologic, Mpeg-2 aac. I really enjoy surround sound effect. Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers placement on headphones? Is that possible?
We haven't heard anything about that yet. It's definitely possible and all the tools exist (personalized HRTFs, head tracking, etc.) to do spectacular rendering via headphones. I'm actually more interested in Atmos rendering over headphones than over speakers because speakers in rooms are generally a bad idea Way too many problems and tradeoffs that just don't exist with headphone playback.

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post #2404 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I'd like to know what some of you think about using mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets like omnimounts instead of actual in-ceiling speakers. Would be as effective? Would you point them straight down or slightly angled to the seating? Speakers like the NHT Superzero 2 or Martin Logan Motion 2/4's. Not as elegant as mounting in-ceiling, yes. But no worries about sound isolation, closed vs open back, and a lot more speaker for the money. Plus less installation cost.
IF sz2 has the same on-axis downwards tilt as the original one (which I used to have seven of myself), then highmounted on the walls would not need a very severe tilt, methinks.

I don't expect anything to compete with in-ceiling speakers of the same quality for this application until speaker manufacturers have had more time to try out atmos on their own sites and possibly found even better radiation patterns for more even effect over multiple seats.

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post #2405 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 06:40 AM
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Regarding in-ceiling speakers:

the prices scared the crap out of me! My wife agreed to let me install 6 in our new house but the cost was commercially prohibitive so

I bought blank in wall brackets from parts express and raw drivers from madisound. The drivers match my L/C/R identically. Total cost per speaker and bracket ~$80 each.

I spent roughly 10 hours each on the install to allow me to modify the brackets. My front heights are at a 60 degree aiming at the main listening area. The sides and rears are at 45 degrees. The angles were executed behind the grill so the WAF is really good.

I'm fortunate that I do not have ceiling insulation and an air conditioned attic. I have the plans drawn up and the wood to "box in" all six drivers. This part of the plan might happen it might not. The thing is that these in ceiling speakers are not carrying that much of a musical or effects load at present. I think I set the low frequency cut off at 110 hz(?) so some of the benefits of a full in ceiling box are negated. I'm also a bit tired and not anxious to spend another 40 hours crawling around the attic.

The sound quality is really nice since all the drivers match. I followed the Dolby recommendations for placement as best as I could in hopes that my next processor will be able to fully utilize the speakers.

The point of this post is to illustrate that sweat equity is alive and well in this hobby and cash is not always the only way to go
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post #2406 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 07:06 AM
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Off topic, but Dan hit the nail on the head and what he lists are the exact reasons why I have not gone to a movie theater in 10 years plus. Just wait for things to be released on DVD, then HD-DVD and the winner of the battle Blu-ray. I think my home theater does a much better job then my local theaters ex Atmos and maybe 3D, the later I could care less about, glasses anyone?

Now that Atmos is coming to the home, I will finally get to hear what all the fuss is about, and continue to save money. I don't miss the person eating popcorn behind me at all or my shoes sticking to the floor when I move

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post #2407 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I'd like to know what some of you think about using mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets like omnimounts instead of actual in-ceiling speakers. Would be as effective?
More effective, since they can be aimed to better cover the listening area.

Sanjay
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post #2408 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
More effective, since they can be aimed to better cover the listening area.
In my opinion the lack of detrimental boundary effects outweighs this. There are also in-wall/ceiling designs that allow aiming:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/square-in-wall

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post #2409 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 08:51 AM
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....I've never really been happy with the sound my A/V receiver for music listening - I've always feared that these alignment system do more harm than good. Even in terms of phase alignment, who knows if these systems are doing a good job?
I use a Pioneer Elite receiver from their SC line for both stereo and HT duty. They have a Pure Direct mode that I use when listening to stereo. I turns off all processing and any equalization and gives it to you raw. I absolutely love this mode for music.

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post #2410 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
More effective, since they can be aimed to better cover the listening area.

Sanjay or anyone,


For the Atmos ceiling speakers, I would like to use small Two-Way Monopole bookshelf speakers that are comprised of (1) 4" woofer and (1) 1" soft dome tweeter that match my other speakers. Would this size and type speaker work OK as Atmos ceiling speakers?

I would like to mount to ceiling using Omni-mount type brackets so I can angle effectively and my question is about the speakers general orientation and it's effect on overall performance.

With regards to cone dispersion, combing, beaming, coverage etc., what are the possible ramifications of mounting the speakers in various positions. In other words, should I mount the speakers upright with the tweeter at the top? Can I mount the speakers horizontally with the tweeter to the left or right? Both tweeters to the outside, both to inside, both towards left or right?

Thanks!


...Glenn

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post #2411 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:12 AM
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In my opinion the lack of detrimental boundary effects outweighs this.
I'll take a notch in the 300-400 Hz range (which I can ameliorate with absorption) to the lack of toe-in flexibility of in-ceiling speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
There are also in-wall/ceiling designs that allow aiming:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/square-in-wall
Not even close to what I would want as far aiming the speaker goes.

Sanjay
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post #2412 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
In my opinion the lack of detrimental boundary effects outweighs this. There are also in-wall/ceiling designs that allow aiming:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/square-in-wall
Another fine reason to still have MultEQxt32 on hand. It handles boundary effects extremely well.


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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I'll take a notch in the 300-400 Hz range (which I can ameliorate with absorption) to the lack of toe-in flexibility of in-ceiling speakers. Not even close to what I would want as far aiming the speaker goes.
Now here's a terrific in-ceiling that aims. http://www.klipsch.com/kl-7502-thx-in-ceiling-speaker Unfortunately, it's a bit pricey and it's huge; tons of vertical clearance needed.

Designs with C-mounts or similar could be players.

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post #2413 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll take a notch in the 300-400 Hz range (which I can ameliorate with absorption) to the lack of toe-in flexibility of in-ceiling speakers.
You're downplaying the phenomenon. Flush mounted in-wall is superior.

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Not even close to what I would want as far aiming the speaker goes.
How much toe-in do you need?

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post #2414 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Another fine reason to still have MultEQxt32 on hand. It handles boundary effects extremely well.
No EQ can handle this well because the effect is non-minimum phase.

Markus

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post #2415 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:35 AM
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Anyone think Denon will manage 13.2.6 (per pre-outs) by 2017?
Only if Denon start selling re-badged Datasat or Trinnov products under license . . . and even then likely only at the same MSRP as the original vendor model...!?
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post #2416 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:37 AM
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I think in ceiling would be better for many reasons. One is if you sit in a typical room with a 8' ceiling and you're ears are 4' off the ground, it doesn't give the ceiling speaker much room to disperse the sound. If the drivers are say 8" lower, that makes it even more difficult.
You'd think so, but at the Atmos demo at Dolby in London, the on-ceiling speakers in the small HT room were about 4 - 4.5 feet above head height and worked just fine. In my HT, my ears are 3ft from the floor and the ceiling is 8ft, so I have 5ft of 'headroom'.


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post #2417 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:39 AM
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You're downplaying the phenomenon.
A 300-400 Hz notch doesn't require very thick absorption.
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Flush mounted in-wall is superior.
Not for what I want.
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How much toe-in do you need?
Enough to point to the person furthest from the speaker.

Sanjay
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post #2418 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:42 AM
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Sanjay or anyone,


For the Atmos ceiling speakers, I would like to use small Two-Way Monopole bookshelf speakers that are comprised of (1) 4" woofer and (1) 1" soft dome tweeter that match my other speakers. Would this size and type speaker work OK as Atmos ceiling speakers?

I would like to mount to ceiling using Omni-mount type brackets so I can angle effectively and my question is about the speakers general orientation and it's effect on overall performance.

With regards to cone dispersion, combing, beaming, coverage etc., what are the possible ramifications of mounting the speakers in various positions. In other words, should I mount the speakers upright with the tweeter at the top? Can I mount the speakers horizontally with the tweeter to the left or right? Both tweeters to the outside, both to inside, both towards left or right?

Thanks!


...Glenn
Glenn, I wondered about all the same things, and the decision to go with the Tannoy Di5 DC speakers seems to address them all (for me). They have a 4.5 inch woofer with concentric 1 inch titanium dome tweeter, they have 90 degree all round dispersion, so that solves the question of mounting them upright or sideways - it makes no difference; because the tweeter is concentrically mounted, there is no 'left or right' orientation of it, and as they come with purpose-designed mounting brackets, it is easy to angle them slightly towards the MLP if you want to (but probably not necessary with this design). Certainly made my life easier. I will rely on EQ to timbre match them to my mains.


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post #2419 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
A 300-400 Hz notch doesn't require very thick absorption.
No? Ever measured the effect and how much absorption is required?

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Not for what I want.
What do you want? Care to elaborate?

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Enough to point to the person furthest from the speaker.
And that is in degrees?

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post #2420 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:47 AM
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Would this size and type speaker work OK as Atmos ceiling speakers?
Sure, as long as you understand the compromises. They're not going to go low, so you might have to cross them over above 100Hz. If they don't sound like your other speakers, you'll have use an EQ to get them to sound more similar.
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Can I mount the speakers horizontally with the tweeter to the left or right?
I wouldn't, for the same reason I wouldn't use a horizontal centre speaker (lobing).

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post #2421 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:50 AM
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No EQ can handle this well because the effect is non-minimum phase.
I admire your dedication and knowledge, but ... EQ is used throughout the pro cinema and HT industry for that purpose to pretty good effect. Maybe it enables other benefits that outweigh/overshadow others ... enough to be a reasonable utility to consider. Are you concerned about the full spectrum? With regards to >1KHz, I agree with you.

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post #2422 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:52 AM
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Ever measured the effect and how much absorption is required?
Sure, 4 inches of OC703 took care of it.
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What do you want? Care to elaborate?
Already did in the post you just replied to.
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And that is in degrees?
Is what in degrees? If I point a speaker at a listener, did I use "degrees" to accomplish that?

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post #2423 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:57 AM
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You'd think so, but at the Atmos demo at Dolby in London, the on-ceiling speakers in the small HT room
I didn't realize your demo was with on ceiling as opposed to in ceiling.

If it's good enough for Dolby, that says a lot. Maybe I need to reread your review

Do you know which brand they used?

Regardless of whether they're in Pioneer's speakers or mounted on the ceiling, concentric drivers in this application seem to make lots of sense.

Steve

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post #2424 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Sure, 4 inches of OC703 took care of it.
Care to share those measurements?

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Already did in the post you just replied to. Is what in degrees? If I point a speaker at a listener, did I use "degrees" to accomplish that?
So you want to point the top surrounds to the listener farthest away from the speaker, right? Why? How many speakers at what locations and what amount of toe-in does this require for each speaker in your specific case? "Degree" is a pretty good measure to describe the amount of toe-in relative to a point of reference, no?

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post #2425 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 10:06 AM
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I'll take a notch in the 300-400 Hz range (which I can ameliorate with absorption) to the lack of toe-in flexibility of in-ceiling speakers. Not even close to what I would want as far aiming the speaker goes.
Not to mention the significant extra cost of comparable quality in-ceiling designs (compared to on-ceiling) plus the possible greater difficulty of fitting them.


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post #2426 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
Now here's a terrific in-ceiling that aims. http://www.klipsch.com/kl-7502-thx-in-ceiling-speaker Unfortunately, it's a bit pricey and it's huge; tons of vertical clearance needed.
I'd say your right on both counts - $1000 ea and 9.5" clearance? Plus taking up nearly the whole 16' OC width.

I wonder what idiot came up with this depth dimension

With typical ceiling joists between 2X6 and 2X10's that disqualifies a whole lot of applications & potential sales. They must think everyone is going to have an attic above the ceiling

They should have kept the money they spent on THX cert and hired an engineer with a practical sense of home construction instead

Even if I was a Klipsch fan (which I'm not), I'd pass on this.

May be a great sounding speaker but not a lot of thought put into practicality for typical homes, especially retrofit.

But hey, it's a good candidate for dumb design of the week

Here's several hi-end and hi-priced ones that make more sense for large square designs:

http://totemacoustic.com/en/hi-fi/in...ceiling-series

14" square but only 4.72" deep

or

http://totemacoustic.com/en/hi-fi/in...ceiling-series

similar to the Klipsch at 15.7" square but still only 4.72" deep

or this

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/uiw-rcs-ii

14 3/8" square and 5 7/8" deep

or the Vanquish from Martin Logan at 6.3" deep & 14.4" diam
http://www.martinlogan.com/architect...alth/specs.php

Any one of these is in the same price range but more practical than the Klipsch's 9.5" depth!

Next...

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 07-29-2014 at 10:45 AM.
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post #2427 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 10:08 AM
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A 300-400 Hz notch doesn't require very thick absorption. Not for what I want. Enough to point to the person furthest from the speaker.
Markus never seems to quite grasp that what he wants is not what everyone wants.


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post #2428 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 10:10 AM
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Care to share those measurements?
Don't have them (was years ago).
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
So you want to point the top surrounds to the listener farthest away from the speaker, right?
Didn't I just say that a couple posts back?
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Why?
Energy trading, so the nearby speaker doesn't overwhelm the closest listener. I do that with my fronts, sides and rears.
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
How many speakers at what locations and what amount of toe-in does this require for each speaker in your specific case?
Haven't worked out specifics, but I'll say 4 speakers for now. Won't know specific locations until I try them, just as I did with fronts, sides and rears. However, from past experience that I do know that I would not give up that level of toe-in flexibility.
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"Degree" is a pretty good measure to describe the amount of toe-in relative to a point of reference, no?
I don't calculate toe-in, I point and listen for what I want.

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post #2429 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 10:12 AM
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Sure, as long as you understand the compromises. They're not going to go low, so you might have to cross them over above 100Hz. If they don't sound like your other speakers, you'll have use an EQ to get them to sound more similar. I wouldn't, for the same reason I wouldn't use a horizontal centre speaker (lobing).
That latter was one of my primary reasons for choosing then Tannoys. I was going to go with MK Sound M7s which complement my MK S150s at the front, and which also serve as surrounds now. But they would really need to be positioned vertically, as they have been designed to be used, and given that they are about 14 inches tall, they would just poke too far down into the room. Using them horizontally was an option, but one I declined for the reasons you mention. The dual concentrics seemed to fill the bill nicely.

I am happy to cross them over to the dual Submersives at 100Hz or even 120Hz, so that isn't an issue.


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post #2430 of 9720 Old 07-29-2014, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Markus never seems to quite grasp that what he wants is not what everyone wants.
I know, it never ends. It's like he cannot believe other people have different priorities than he has.
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