The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 81 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2401 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 07:40 AM
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Regarding in-ceiling speakers:

the prices scared the crap out of me! My wife agreed to let me install 6 in our new house but the cost was commercially prohibitive so

I bought blank in wall brackets from parts express and raw drivers from madisound. The drivers match my L/C/R identically. Total cost per speaker and bracket ~$80 each.

I spent roughly 10 hours each on the install to allow me to modify the brackets. My front heights are at a 60 degree aiming at the main listening area. The sides and rears are at 45 degrees. The angles were executed behind the grill so the WAF is really good.

I'm fortunate that I do not have ceiling insulation and an air conditioned attic. I have the plans drawn up and the wood to "box in" all six drivers. This part of the plan might happen it might not. The thing is that these in ceiling speakers are not carrying that much of a musical or effects load at present. I think I set the low frequency cut off at 110 hz(?) so some of the benefits of a full in ceiling box are negated. I'm also a bit tired and not anxious to spend another 40 hours crawling around the attic.

The sound quality is really nice since all the drivers match. I followed the Dolby recommendations for placement as best as I could in hopes that my next processor will be able to fully utilize the speakers.

The point of this post is to illustrate that sweat equity is alive and well in this hobby and cash is not always the only way to go
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post #2402 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 08:06 AM
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Off topic, but Dan hit the nail on the head and what he lists are the exact reasons why I have not gone to a movie theater in 10 years plus. Just wait for things to be released on DVD, then HD-DVD and the winner of the battle Blu-ray. I think my home theater does a much better job then my local theaters ex Atmos and maybe 3D, the later I could care less about, glasses anyone?

Now that Atmos is coming to the home, I will finally get to hear what all the fuss is about, and continue to save money. I don't miss the person eating popcorn behind me at all or my shoes sticking to the floor when I move

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post #2403 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I'd like to know what some of you think about using mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets like omnimounts instead of actual in-ceiling speakers. Would be as effective?
More effective, since they can be aimed to better cover the listening area.

Sanjay
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post #2404 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
More effective, since they can be aimed to better cover the listening area.
In my opinion the lack of detrimental boundary effects outweighs this. There are also in-wall/ceiling designs that allow aiming:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/square-in-wall

Markus

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post #2405 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post
....I've never really been happy with the sound my A/V receiver for music listening - I've always feared that these alignment system do more harm than good. Even in terms of phase alignment, who knows if these systems are doing a good job?
I use a Pioneer Elite receiver from their SC line for both stereo and HT duty. They have a Pure Direct mode that I use when listening to stereo. I turns off all processing and any equalization and gives it to you raw. I absolutely love this mode for music.

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Pioneer Elite - A-20, DV-79AVi, BDP-HD1, SC-05

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post #2406 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
More effective, since they can be aimed to better cover the listening area.

Sanjay or anyone,


For the Atmos ceiling speakers, I would like to use small Two-Way Monopole bookshelf speakers that are comprised of (1) 4" woofer and (1) 1" soft dome tweeter that match my other speakers. Would this size and type speaker work OK as Atmos ceiling speakers?

I would like to mount to ceiling using Omni-mount type brackets so I can angle effectively and my question is about the speakers general orientation and it's effect on overall performance.

With regards to cone dispersion, combing, beaming, coverage etc., what are the possible ramifications of mounting the speakers in various positions. In other words, should I mount the speakers upright with the tweeter at the top? Can I mount the speakers horizontally with the tweeter to the left or right? Both tweeters to the outside, both to inside, both towards left or right?

Thanks!


...Glenn

Last edited by Glenn Baumann; 07-29-2014 at 10:06 AM.
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post #2407 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:12 AM
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In my opinion the lack of detrimental boundary effects outweighs this.
I'll take a notch in the 300-400 Hz range (which I can ameliorate with absorption) to the lack of toe-in flexibility of in-ceiling speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
There are also in-wall/ceiling designs that allow aiming:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/square-in-wall
Not even close to what I would want as far aiming the speaker goes.

Sanjay
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post #2408 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
In my opinion the lack of detrimental boundary effects outweighs this. There are also in-wall/ceiling designs that allow aiming:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/square-in-wall
Another fine reason to still have MultEQxt32 on hand. It handles boundary effects extremely well.


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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I'll take a notch in the 300-400 Hz range (which I can ameliorate with absorption) to the lack of toe-in flexibility of in-ceiling speakers. Not even close to what I would want as far aiming the speaker goes.
Now here's a terrific in-ceiling that aims. http://www.klipsch.com/kl-7502-thx-in-ceiling-speaker Unfortunately, it's a bit pricey and it's huge; tons of vertical clearance needed.

Designs with C-mounts or similar could be players.

Last edited by Cam Man; 07-29-2014 at 10:19 AM.
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post #2409 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I'll take a notch in the 300-400 Hz range (which I can ameliorate with absorption) to the lack of toe-in flexibility of in-ceiling speakers.
You're downplaying the phenomenon. Flush mounted in-wall is superior.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not even close to what I would want as far aiming the speaker goes.
How much toe-in do you need?

Markus

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post #2410 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
Another fine reason to still have MultEQxt32 on hand. It handles boundary effects extremely well.
No EQ can handle this well because the effect is non-minimum phase.

Markus

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post #2411 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:35 AM
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Anyone think Denon will manage 13.2.6 (per pre-outs) by 2017?
Only if Denon start selling re-badged Datasat or Trinnov products under license . . . and even then likely only at the same MSRP as the original vendor model...!?
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post #2412 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:37 AM
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I think in ceiling would be better for many reasons. One is if you sit in a typical room with a 8' ceiling and you're ears are 4' off the ground, it doesn't give the ceiling speaker much room to disperse the sound. If the drivers are say 8" lower, that makes it even more difficult.
You'd think so, but at the Atmos demo at Dolby in London, the on-ceiling speakers in the small HT room were about 4 - 4.5 feet above head height and worked just fine. In my HT, my ears are 3ft from the floor and the ceiling is 8ft, so I have 5ft of 'headroom'.
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post #2413 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
You're downplaying the phenomenon.
A 300-400 Hz notch doesn't require very thick absorption.
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Flush mounted in-wall is superior.
Not for what I want.
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How much toe-in do you need?
Enough to point to the person furthest from the speaker.

Sanjay
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post #2414 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baumann View Post
Sanjay or anyone,


For the Atmos ceiling speakers, I would like to use small Two-Way Monopole bookshelf speakers that are comprised of (1) 4" woofer and (1) 1" soft dome tweeter that match my other speakers. Would this size and type speaker work OK as Atmos ceiling speakers?

I would like to mount to ceiling using Omni-mount type brackets so I can angle effectively and my question is about the speakers general orientation and it's effect on overall performance.

With regards to cone dispersion, combing, beaming, coverage etc., what are the possible ramifications of mounting the speakers in various positions. In other words, should I mount the speakers upright with the tweeter at the top? Can I mount the speakers horizontally with the tweeter to the left or right? Both tweeters to the outside, both to inside, both towards left or right?

Thanks!


...Glenn
Glenn, I wondered about all the same things, and the decision to go with the Tannoy Di5 DC speakers seems to address them all (for me). They have a 4.5 inch woofer with concentric 1 inch titanium dome tweeter, they have 90 degree all round dispersion, so that solves the question of mounting them upright or sideways - it makes no difference; because the tweeter is concentrically mounted, there is no 'left or right' orientation of it, and as they come with purpose-designed mounting brackets, it is easy to angle them slightly towards the MLP if you want to (but probably not necessary with this design). Certainly made my life easier. I will rely on EQ to timbre match them to my mains.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 07-29-2014 at 11:09 AM.
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post #2415 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
A 300-400 Hz notch doesn't require very thick absorption.
No? Ever measured the effect and how much absorption is required?

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Not for what I want.
What do you want? Care to elaborate?

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Enough to point to the person furthest from the speaker.
And that is in degrees?

Markus

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post #2416 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Baumann View Post
Would this size and type speaker work OK as Atmos ceiling speakers?
Sure, as long as you understand the compromises. They're not going to go low, so you might have to cross them over above 100Hz. If they don't sound like your other speakers, you'll have use an EQ to get them to sound more similar.
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Can I mount the speakers horizontally with the tweeter to the left or right?
I wouldn't, for the same reason I wouldn't use a horizontal centre speaker (lobing).

Sanjay
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post #2417 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:50 AM
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No EQ can handle this well because the effect is non-minimum phase.
I admire your dedication and knowledge, but ... EQ is used throughout the pro cinema and HT industry for that purpose to pretty good effect. Maybe it enables other benefits that outweigh/overshadow others ... enough to be a reasonable utility to consider. Are you concerned about the full spectrum? With regards to >1KHz, I agree with you.

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post #2418 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Ever measured the effect and how much absorption is required?
Sure, 4 inches of OC703 took care of it.
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What do you want? Care to elaborate?
Already did in the post you just replied to.
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And that is in degrees?
Is what in degrees? If I point a speaker at a listener, did I use "degrees" to accomplish that?

Sanjay
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post #2419 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
You'd think so, but at the Atmos demo at Dolby in London, the on-ceiling speakers in the small HT room
I didn't realize your demo was with on ceiling as opposed to in ceiling.

If it's good enough for Dolby, that says a lot. Maybe I need to reread your review

Do you know which brand they used?

Regardless of whether they're in Pioneer's speakers or mounted on the ceiling, concentric drivers in this application seem to make lots of sense.

Steve

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post #2420 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Sure, 4 inches of OC703 took care of it.
Care to share those measurements?

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Already did in the post you just replied to. Is what in degrees? If I point a speaker at a listener, did I use "degrees" to accomplish that?
So you want to point the top surrounds to the listener farthest away from the speaker, right? Why? How many speakers at what locations and what amount of toe-in does this require for each speaker in your specific case? "Degree" is a pretty good measure to describe the amount of toe-in relative to a point of reference, no?

Markus

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post #2421 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:06 AM
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I'll take a notch in the 300-400 Hz range (which I can ameliorate with absorption) to the lack of toe-in flexibility of in-ceiling speakers. Not even close to what I would want as far aiming the speaker goes.
Not to mention the significant extra cost of comparable quality in-ceiling designs (compared to on-ceiling) plus the possible greater difficulty of fitting them.
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post #2422 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:08 AM
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Now here's a terrific in-ceiling that aims. http://www.klipsch.com/kl-7502-thx-in-ceiling-speaker Unfortunately, it's a bit pricey and it's huge; tons of vertical clearance needed.
I'd say your right on both counts - $1000 ea and 9.5" clearance? Plus taking up nearly the whole 16' OC width.

I wonder what idiot came up with this depth dimension

With typical ceiling joists between 2X6 and 2X10's that disqualifies a whole lot of applications & potential sales. They must think everyone is going to have an attic above the ceiling

They should have kept the money they spent on THX cert and hired an engineer with a practical sense of home construction instead

Even if I was a Klipsch fan (which I'm not), I'd pass on this.

May be a great sounding speaker but not a lot of thought put into practicality for typical homes, especially retrofit.

But hey, it's a good candidate for dumb design of the week

Here's several hi-end and hi-priced ones that make more sense for large square designs:

http://totemacoustic.com/en/hi-fi/in...ceiling-series

14" square but only 4.72" deep

or

http://totemacoustic.com/en/hi-fi/in...ceiling-series

similar to the Klipsch at 15.7" square but still only 4.72" deep

or this

http://www.definitivetech.com/products/uiw-rcs-ii

14 3/8" square and 5 7/8" deep

or the Vanquish from Martin Logan at 6.3" deep & 14.4" diam
http://www.martinlogan.com/architect...alth/specs.php

Any one of these is in the same price range but more practical than the Klipsch's 9.5" depth!

Next...

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 07-29-2014 at 11:45 AM.
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post #2423 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:08 AM
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A 300-400 Hz notch doesn't require very thick absorption. Not for what I want. Enough to point to the person furthest from the speaker.
Markus never seems to quite grasp that what he wants is not what everyone wants.
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post #2424 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:10 AM
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Care to share those measurements?
Don't have them (was years ago).
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So you want to point the top surrounds to the listener farthest away from the speaker, right?
Didn't I just say that a couple posts back?
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Why?
Energy trading, so the nearby speaker doesn't overwhelm the closest listener. I do that with my fronts, sides and rears.
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How many speakers at what locations and what amount of toe-in does this require for each speaker in your specific case?
Haven't worked out specifics, but I'll say 4 speakers for now. Won't know specific locations until I try them, just as I did with fronts, sides and rears. However, from past experience that I do know that I would not give up that level of toe-in flexibility.
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"Degree" is a pretty good measure to describe the amount of toe-in relative to a point of reference, no?
I don't calculate toe-in, I point and listen for what I want.

Sanjay
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post #2425 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:12 AM
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Sure, as long as you understand the compromises. They're not going to go low, so you might have to cross them over above 100Hz. If they don't sound like your other speakers, you'll have use an EQ to get them to sound more similar. I wouldn't, for the same reason I wouldn't use a horizontal centre speaker (lobing).
That latter was one of my primary reasons for choosing then Tannoys. I was going to go with MK Sound M7s which complement my MK S150s at the front, and which also serve as surrounds now. But they would really need to be positioned vertically, as they have been designed to be used, and given that they are about 14 inches tall, they would just poke too far down into the room. Using them horizontally was an option, but one I declined for the reasons you mention. The dual concentrics seemed to fill the bill nicely.

I am happy to cross them over to the dual Submersives at 100Hz or even 120Hz, so that isn't an issue.
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post #2426 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:13 AM
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Markus never seems to quite grasp that what he wants is not what everyone wants.
I know, it never ends. It's like he cannot believe other people have different priorities than he has.
tjenkins95 and kbarnes701 like this.

Sanjay
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post #2427 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:16 AM
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I didn't realize your demo was with on ceiling as opposed to in ceiling.

If it's good enough for Dolby, that says a lot. Maybe I need to reread your review

Do you know which brand they used?

Regardless of whether they're in Pioneer's speakers or mounted on the ceiling, concentric drivers in this application seem to make lots of sense.
Most of the demo in the HT room was with Atmos speakers but they did also demo on-ceiling speakers (top front/top rear) as well.

They wouldn't comment on the brand of the speakers - they were what they called "prototypes". They were quite small though - maybe 10 inches x 5 inches by 6 inches (HWD) going purely from memory.

I do like the idea of concentrics for the top speakers. They have a lot of benefits per se, and in this application, as you say, maybe even more.

But AFAIK there is (at this time) no specification or even guidelines for domestic top speakers. Maybe this will emerge soon...?
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post #2428 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:20 AM
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I'd say your right on both counts - $1000 ea and 9.5" clearance? Not including needing near the whole 16' width to install. I wonder what idiot came up with these dimensions.

With typical ceiling joists between 2X6 and 2X10's that disqualifies a whole lot of applications & potential sales. They must think everyone is going to have an attic above the ceiling

Looks to me like a Stupid Design decision! They should have kept the money they spent on THX cert and hired an engineer with a practical sense of home construction instead

Even if I was a Klipsch fan (which I'm not), I'd pass on this.

May be a great sounding speaker but not a lot of thought put into practicality for installing in a typical house.

Next...
In my evaluation process for the top speakers here, I did look at in-ceiling designs just to be thorough, and other than the huge cost for reasonably specced units, I don't think I could accommodate a single design (that I would actually want) in my ceiling, which only has about 5 inches of clearance max above the plaster. I had pretty much decided anyway that I disliked the idea, but that latter was the clincher. As you say, next...
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post #2429 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Don't have them (was years ago). Didn't I just say that a couple posts back? Energy trading, so the nearby speaker doesn't overwhelm the closest listener. I do that with my fronts, sides and rears. Haven't worked out specifics, but I'll say 4 speakers for now. Won't know specific locations until I try them, just as I did with fronts, sides and rears. However, from past experience that I do know that I would not give up that level of toe-in flexibility. I don't calculate toe-in, I point and listen for what I want.
How many seats in each row and how many rows? How large is your room?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #2430 of 19919 Old 07-29-2014, 11:33 AM
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Hercules 3D is playing in dolby atmos they want $15.50 for an adult and $13.00 for Senior and $12.50 for child at our local Regal theatre might have to check it out

My main setup Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle/ Samsung PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Bic Acoustech speakers,MICCA M-8S FH/TM on wall / in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs
10' X 15' DEN Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos / Acoustic Audio 151B Indoor/Outdoor Speakers top middle on Ceiling Speakers/ Samsung PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray /
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