The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 82 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I didn't realize your demo was with on ceiling as opposed to in ceiling.

If it's good enough for Dolby, that says a lot. Maybe I need to reread your review

Do you know which brand they used?

Regardless of whether they're in Pioneer's speakers or mounted on the ceiling, concentric drivers in this application seem to make lots of sense.
Most of the demo in the HT room was with Atmos speakers but they did also demo on-ceiling speakers (top front/top rear) as well.

They wouldn't comment on the brand of the speakers - they were what they called "prototypes". They were quite small though - maybe 10 inches x 5 inches by 6 inches (HWD) going purely from memory.

I do like the idea of concentrics for the top speakers. They have a lot of benefits per se, and in this application, as you say, maybe even more.

But AFAIK there is (at this time) no specification or even guidelines for domestic top speakers. Maybe this will emerge soon...?
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I'd say your right on both counts - $1000 ea and 9.5" clearance? Not including needing near the whole 16' width to install. I wonder what idiot came up with these dimensions.

With typical ceiling joists between 2X6 and 2X10's that disqualifies a whole lot of applications & potential sales. They must think everyone is going to have an attic above the ceiling

Looks to me like a Stupid Design decision! They should have kept the money they spent on THX cert and hired an engineer with a practical sense of home construction instead

Even if I was a Klipsch fan (which I'm not), I'd pass on this.

May be a great sounding speaker but not a lot of thought put into practicality for installing in a typical house.

Next...
In my evaluation process for the top speakers here, I did look at in-ceiling designs just to be thorough, and other than the huge cost for reasonably specced units, I don't think I could accommodate a single design (that I would actually want) in my ceiling, which only has about 5 inches of clearance max above the plaster. I had pretty much decided anyway that I disliked the idea, but that latter was the clincher. As you say, next...
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Don't have them (was years ago). Didn't I just say that a couple posts back? Energy trading, so the nearby speaker doesn't overwhelm the closest listener. I do that with my fronts, sides and rears. Haven't worked out specifics, but I'll say 4 speakers for now. Won't know specific locations until I try them, just as I did with fronts, sides and rears. However, from past experience that I do know that I would not give up that level of toe-in flexibility. I don't calculate toe-in, I point and listen for what I want.
How many seats in each row and how many rows? How large is your room?

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:33 AM
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Hercules 3D is playing in dolby atmos they want $15.50 for an adult and $13.00 for Senior and $12.50 for child at our local Regal theatre might have to check it out

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I'd say your right on both counts - $1000 ea and 9.5" clearance? Not including needing near the whole 16' width to install. I wonder what idiot came up with these dimensions.

With typical ceiling joists between 2X6 and 2X10's that disqualifies a whole lot of applications & potential sales. They must think everyone is going to have an attic above the ceiling

Looks to me like a Stupid Design decision! They should have kept the money they spent on THX cert and hired an engineer with a practical sense of home construction instead

Even if I was a Klipsch fan (which I'm not), I'd pass on this.

May be a great sounding speaker but not a lot of thought put into practicality for installing in a typical house.

Next...
Room volume and listening distance drive speaker decisions for me. The Klipsch THX U2 line is a good one for that, and very flexible. You are so right on the installation trouble for the in-ceiling. I'm doing an upgrade for a big living room remodel where I used LCRs from the line a while back, but had to wait for the remodel to do surrounds. Despite the ceiling being 14', there is only 8" or so of ceiling clearance due to various framing. No go. Would have been nice in that room.


I have used them, though, a number of times, and they do very well. There's just not a lot of in-ceiling speakers that are good for big rooms with significant distance/throws. Keith's suggestion with the Tannoys could be a good one, though.
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by BillFree View Post
With all the discussion on Dolby Atmos speaker placement, Atmos receivers, content coming what about Dolby Atmos supported headphones? I have Sony DP-RF6000 headphones that support DTS, Dolby Digital Prologic, Mpeg-2 aac. I really enjoy surround sound effect. Dolby Atmos ceiling speakers placement on headphones? Is that possible?
http://www.cnet.com/news/dolby-to-put-atmos-surround-sound-on-tablets-smartphones/
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Not to mention the significant extra cost of comparable quality in-ceiling designs (compared to on-ceiling) plus the possible greater difficulty of fitting them.
that's what I mean.

just one look at Can Man's Klipsch example and several other examples I just mentioned show that installation considerations of depth, location right between studs, cut-out sizes & needed mounting hardware add up to potential difficulties while finding a single stud to screw in an omnimount style or C bracket is a whole lot easier. plus, depending on which direction the studs go, more flexibility in placement one dimension or the other.

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
I know, it never ends. It's like he cannot believe other people have different priorities than he has.
I'm just trying to understand what considerations make you dismiss a superior solution. Has nothing to do with me not being able to accept that other priorities exist. I'm just trying to understand what those priorities are.

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
In my opinion the lack of detrimental boundary effects outweighs this. There are also in-wall/ceiling designs that allow aiming:
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/square-in-wall
You're assuming that boundary effects disappear when the speaker is flush-mounted . . .

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:51 AM
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How many seats in each row and how many rows? How large is your room?
It's a wide couch that can seat 3-4 in a living room that is about 14 feet wide in the front half (right side wall disappears half way back, opening up to the dining area). Back wall is about 17 feet from the front wall, but there are archways (not doors) on the back wall and left wall. Seating is 3/5ths of room length back. If you want, I can whip up a quick diagram.

Because of the irregular space, all my speaker placement has been a result of trial and error. Hence why I said that I wouldn't know where my heights would go until I try them. Which is why I prioritize toe-in flexibility higher than you might.

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
that's what I mean.

just one look at Can Man's Klipsch example and several other examples I just mentioned show that installation considerations of depth, location right between studs, cut-out sizes & needed mounting hardware add up to potential difficulties while finding a single stud to screw in an omnimount style or C bracket is a whole lot easier. plus, depending on which direction the studs go, more flexibility in placement one dimension or the other.
Couldn’t agree more. I spent some time figuring this out and came to the conclusion that there was just NFW I was going to use in-ceiling designs. Others may have YMMV of course, which is fine. But it ain't for me and I am happy with the likely choice of the Tannoys. If I had a bigger room I’d go with the Di6 DCs and if I had a huge room, maybe the Di8s! Oh yes!
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Old 07-29-2014, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bkeeler10 View Post
You're assuming that boundary effects disappear when the speaker is flush-mounted . . .
The worst detrimental boundary effect does indeed disappear, namely the back wall bounce.
http://www.genelec.com/tech-tips/tec...llation-tip-1/

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:55 AM
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Hercules 3D is playing in dolby atmos they want $15.50 for an adult and $13.00 for Senior and $12.50 for child at our local Regal theatre might have to check it out
That is $2 less than the Regal Atmos theater in my area. Those prices seem to be inline with the AMC Atmos theater in my area. I have no idea why the Regal in my area is $2 more. I'm hoping to check out the movie Lucy tonight or tomorrow night there. Since I saw it this past weekend at an AMC theater it is still fresh in my mind.

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Old 07-29-2014, 10:59 AM
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I'm just trying to understand what considerations make you dismiss a superior solution.
I'm trying to understand why you believe that solutions to your priorities are "superior" for everyone else. Also, I didn't dismiss the problem (said I would address it with absorption).
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
The worst detrimental boundary effect does indeed disappear, namely the back wall bounce.
http://www.genelec.com/tech-tips/tec...llation-tip-1/
Yes, that boundary effect disappears. I realized after reading further which one you were referring to. Although there are other effects caused by boundaries, which flush-mounting does not remove (and in fact it may reinforce some of them).

Anyway, sorry to jump on it out of context.

Edit: Keeping up with this thread is nearly a full-time job

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Old 07-29-2014, 11:26 AM
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I'm trying to understand why you believe that solutions to your priorities are "superior" for everyone else. Also, I didn't dismiss the problem (said I would address it with absorption).
Markus seems to miss the point that while in-ceiling speakers may offer some potential superiority in one area, that they may also offer other parameters which are decidedly not superior in other areas. A very obvious example is fitting the in-ceiling speakers into the ceiling. If they won't fit into the available space, then it matters not one jot how 'superior' they are wrt to the one specific parameter he has repeatedly mentioned. And, equally, if you value the ability to toe the speakers in, and they do not offer that ability to your satisfaction and requirements, again, the benefit Markus sees becomes moot. Why this is so hard to grasp that it needs a whole page of posts to communicate is difficult for me to understand.
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Old 07-29-2014, 11:49 AM
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^^
you hit it square on the button.

one can argue boundary effects all day long but in the real world, for how many potential owners, even enthusiasts, is this going to be the #1 consideration?

for the vast majority, any potential theoretical advantage of the one are going to be far outweighed by practical issues of cost, installation problems/concerns & room layout/decor as well as sound quality.

besides, while the cancellation effect of near boundaries effects all frequencies, its greatest impact on room modes is bass. and unless one is willing to spend the money for a closed back design plus stuff a whole lot of insulation in the space or build a containment box (if that's even possible), there will be resonances & sound transference issues with in-ceiling speakers. advantage offset by disadvantage.

And, as he himself pointed out, the internal Dolby crossover for the overheads is about 180 Hz, so I'm not sure how relevant the issue even is. probably not much.

his ongoing speaker debates are very similar to the one he raged over home Atmos to begin with. I'm also at a loss to understand it...in every Atmos thread it's the same poster with the same outcome.

Steve

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Old 07-29-2014, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
What’s the difference between the Atmos surround speakers in a commercial theater and the Wides in a HT? First, the Atmos speakers aren’t 'Wides' in any sense of the word used in a domestic context* - they are there simply to fill in a gap between the edge of the screen and the rest of the surrounds to enable seamless panning. And second, the angles stipulated for domestic Wides are nothing at all like the angles of those in-theater speakers.

As this was already explained, Noah, I have a feeling I have misunderstood your question.

*EG, Wides at home are for the extraction or creation or generation or derivation (pick your own noun) of reflections.
I guess I missed where the angular positions of cinema wides was specified.

And you can't have known this, but in my thinking domestic wides as implemented by DTS Neo X, and when Atmos allows the user to specify speaker locations, has the same purpose.


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I know, it never ends. It's like he cannot believe other people have different priorities than he has.
Seems like Markus just cannot stand to concede on any point.

Apropos, just heard this recently:

"Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig; after a couple of hours you realize he likes it."

There were some good retorts too; "I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right."


Noah

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Old 07-29-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
With typical ceiling joists between 2X6 and 2X10's that disqualifies a whole lot of applications & potential sales. They must think everyone is going to have an attic above the ceiling

I've never heard of 2x6 floor joists. I've only seen 2x10 or 2x12. Maybe really short spans have those. If I had 2x6 floor joists, I would be scared to drill wire holes through them. Even so, a 9.5" tall speaker along a 2x10 is cutting it really close.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:19 PM
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a comment wrt to the "nearness" of surface mounted Tops and the feeling that 8 ft ceilings would be constrictive wrt to allowing a speaker friendly D for dispersion etc,
got me to thinking
brief geometry lesson
from Sanjays visit last month wrt to my ceiling trestle system, we initially concluded that
on the 8 ft ceiling the vertical D to ears was 50" (depending on couch slouch)
We projected a FT's D of 42" directly ahead of MLP. same for RT's AND
a 42" spread to left and right, essentially a 7 foot square to be cross fired at the MLP bubble
50 x50 +42 x42 yadda yadda yadda. D to speaker face is 65+ inches, speakers angled down from plane of ceiling at 40 degrees. directly in front of MLP, with in parameter range
now move that speaker face42" to the side
42 x 42 + 42 x 42 , square root yields about 59.4", the distance from a spot directly overhead the mlp to that spot ahead and to the left (or right)
so the triangle for the D to the speaker face at the corner of the 7 ft square is 59,4 x 59.4 + 50 x 50 etc. =about 77" to the spot on the ceiling, so if the speaker hangs down about 4-6 inches, it's still about 6 feet away.
same for the RT's.
since my Surrounds are only about 8 feet from me, this "feels like" maybe the right EQ and ATMOS can marry it all into a well unified sound field.
and my ugly wart design got an upgrade last night
a work in progress
that Marantz 8802 sounds like the real deal
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I've never heard of 2x6 floor joists. I've only seen 2x10 or 2x12. Maybe really short spans have those. If I had 2x6 floor joists, I would be scared to drill wire holes through them. Even so, a 9.5" tall speaker along a 2x10 is cutting it really close.
you're right. my own house is 2X10 between the floors but I did find a reference to 2X6. I just searched on "typical ceiling joist dimensions" and couple sites included 2X6.

I also find that pretty skimpy & not realistic for most normal size rooms but even so, like you said, a 9.5" deep speaker is not going to fit even a 2X10 (9-1/4").

bottom line - it's not a practical in-ceiling speaker.

Steve

Last edited by ss9001; 07-29-2014 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
I'm just trying to understand what considerations make you dismiss a superior solution. Has nothing to do with me not being able to accept that other priorities exist. I'm just trying to understand what those priorities are.
Drop it already. Sheesh.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm trying to understand why you believe that solutions to your priorities are "superior" for everyone else. Also, I didn't dismiss the problem (said I would address it with absorption).
Well, my priorities are pretty simple: describe what is the best solution in terms of high quality sound reproduction. And flush mounting is objectively the best solution. See Toole, see the Genelec page I've liked, see any text about studio acoustics. This has nothing to do with my personal priorities and tradeoffs required in my specific room or any other room.

It is not me being unable to see that there are tradeoffs and differing priorities, it's others imposing their personal requirements or priorities onto the discussion. Just like you did when saying "mini-bookshelves mounted to the ceiling with brackets" would be "More effective" than "actual in-ceiling speakers". Maybe in your specific room but generally it's not true.

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Old 07-29-2014, 12:32 PM
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^^
you hit it square on the button.

one can argue boundary effects all day long but in the real world, for how many potential owners, even enthusiasts, is this going to be the #1 consideration?

for the vast majority, any potential theoretical advantage of the one are going to be far outweighed by practical issues of cost, installation problems/concerns & room layout/decor as well as sound quality.

besides, while the cancellation effect of near boundaries effects all frequencies, its greatest impact on room modes is bass. and unless one is willing to spend the money for a closed back design plus stuff a whole lot of insulation in the space or build a containment box (if that's even possible), there will be resonances & sound transference issues with in-ceiling speakers. advantage offset by disadvantage.
Yep. It all seems pretty clear to me. A benefit is only a benefit if you can realise it. I can't physically accommodate any in-ceiling speaker I’d want to use; Sanjay wants to toe-in the ceiling speaker more than in-ceiling designs allow. That's pretty much the end of in-ceiling designs as a potential choice. Constantly banging on about the benefits wrt to boundary effects doesn’t somehow suddenly make in-ceiling designs fit into my ceiling nor make then toe-in enough for Sanjay. Tell me I would benefit more if I had a 130 inch screen.... sure... I know I would. Now let me tell you I can't physically fit one into my HT. Isn't that the end of it? No need to tell me another 15 times why a 130 inch screen is better. Where's the roll-eyes thing... ah, here it is...
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:35 PM
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Apropos, just heard this recently:

"Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig; after a couple of hours you realize he likes it."
LOL. Wonderful!

An optimist says his glass is half full. A pessimist says his glass is half empty. An engineer says you have the wrong size glass.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:40 PM
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I've never heard of 2x6 floor joists. I've only seen 2x10 or 2x12. Maybe really short spans have those. If I had 2x6 floor joists, I would be scared to drill wire holes through them. Even so, a 9.5" tall speaker along a 2x10 is cutting it really close.
They're all 2x6 in the UK, for modern(ish) houses AFAIK. But our spans are generally shorter than for US homes, as the rooms are smaller. It can restrict the choice of in-ceiling designs quite a lot, and can rule out those which require some sort of back box altogether. I'm sure they have their benefits and their role, but they are clearly not for everyone. And they always seem to cost an arm and a leg for any that are likely to sound good.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 07-29-2014 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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When you're all done with personal derogative comments and backslapping, could we please get back on topic? There's a difference between attacking a post and attacking a poster. Some of you crossed the line.

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Old 07-29-2014, 12:41 PM
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from Sanjays visit last month wrt to my ceiling trestle system, we initially concluded that on the 8 ft ceiling the vertical D to ears was 50" (depending on couch slouch)
60" from ears to ceiling when slouching. Mounting the top speakers 42" forward & rearward of the main listening position was based on using the angles (35° forward & rearward of the MLP) in the Denon diagram. The 84" spread came from wanting the top speakers behind the listener at least 60° apart to avoid reversals. For consistency, same spread for the tops in front of the listener. Thus the 7'x7' square.

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Old 07-29-2014, 12:46 PM
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Let me ask the question this way (since I'm currently using in-ceiling speakers in a 7.1 setup), if I have enough toe-in adjustment for the extremes of my setup, is there any reason I would replace my in-ceiling speakers with add-on speakers? In this case, do we all agree that a "quality" in-ceiling speaker would be preferable to an add-on speaker for the reasons already mentioned? I'm not trying to prolong this painful discussion but until I read this, I was relieved that I might get some benefit from my in-ceiling speakers (inherited during the purchase of my house) but now I'm wondering if I need to consider replacing them?
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Old 07-29-2014, 12:55 PM
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And flush mounting is objectively the best solution.
Just as vanilla is objectively the best tasting ice cream.
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This has nothing to do with my personal priorities and tradeoffs required in my specific room or any other room.
Sure it does. You're willing to give up the toe-in flexibility I want in order to not have a SBIR notch. I'm willing to accept a SBIR notch (and address it with absorption) in order to have toe-in flexibility that in-ceiling speakers do not have.

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