The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 83 - AVS Forum
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post #2461 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
Let me ask the question this way (since I'm currently using in-ceiling speakers in a 7.1 setup), if I have enough toe-in adjustment for the extremes of my setup, is there any reason I would replace my in-ceiling speakers with add-on speakers? In this case, do we all agree that a "quality" in-ceiling speaker would be preferable to an add-on speaker for the reasons already mentioned? I'm not trying to prolong this painful discussion but until I read this, I was relieved that I might get some benefit from my in-ceiling speakers (inherited during the purchase of my house) but now I'm wondering if I need to consider replacing them?
Are they in the right position for Atmos is the first question that springs to mind? IOW, do they meet the angle requirements in the oft-posted diagram? If so, then I see no reason why they wouldn't work well for Atmos if they currently work well for 7.1.

Mu understanding of it is that either in-ceiling or on-ceiling designs will work well for Atmos, so it becomes a matter of individual choice. In-ceilings may have some inherent benefits, but they also have some inherent drawbacks. Same for on-ceilings. Only an individual can balance these.

I've already decided I can't accommodate any in-ceiling designs that I would want. And/or they would be too difficult to work with from a practical POV.

One other benefit of my decision to go with on-ceiling designs is that I can fairly easily move them about and experiment with different positions, whereas this will be impossible with in-ceiling designs. Once the hole is cut, it is cut. I intend to experiment because of the Atmos overlap of possible angles. For example, I can specify a Front Height + Top Middle scenario, and with only a smallish move of the Top Middles I can make them Top Rears and this will then allow me a Top Front and Top Rear scenario. I can then compare FH+TM with TF+TR and see which is better, if any. And all I have to do is make sure I have enough speaker wire to allow me to move the speakers. Once I have experimented, I just have some very small holes to repair, where the speakers were fixed to the ceiling. Nice and easy, nice and flexible and it allows me to listen before I commit. In-ceiling designs are a once-and-for-all thing because moving them and filling the holes might not be very easy at all. Especially if the joists go the 'wrong' way, which IME is always.
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post #2462 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post
Let me ask the question this way (since I'm currently using in-ceiling speakers in a 7.1 setup), if I have enough toe-in adjustment for the extremes of my setup, is there any reason I would replace my in-ceiling speakers with add-on speakers? now I'm wondering if I need to consider replacing them?
I agree with Keith. If they are in the right locations, I'd use them and not look back. You're fortunate you have good ones already installed unlike those of us who are having to decide which is the best way to go based on all these issues.

Now, if you wanted to upgrade the speakers themselves that's obviously different but I'd personally not replace them with add-on Dolby speakers as long as they are in the proper placement for the configuration you are thinking of (Top, Middle or Rear). If they aren't in good Atmos spots, then you could weigh the feasibility of moving them vs add-ons.

I'd at least try what you have first before doing anything differently
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post #2463 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:10 PM
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Thinking of going 5.1.4 but I my ceiling is only 7'2' and I see that the recommended height for the atmos add-on speakers is 8 feet. If I go with in ceiling speakers would just over 7 feet be ok or just a waste of time? I would sit about 9 feet from the screen and have the first pair of atmos speakers a few feet in front of the screen and the second pair a couple of feet behind me. Thanks for any advice!

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post #2464 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
That is $2 less than the Regal Atmos theater in my area.
The two Atmos theatres closest to me are both Krikorian and both showing 'Lucy' in Atmos (probably a less bombastic soundtrack than 'Hercules'). Thankfully, ticket prices for the first show of the day are $7.75 and $10 (one of the two theatres has a premium auditorium, with better seats and a bigger screen, hence the higher price). Still, can't beat that for hearing a movie in Atmos.

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post #2465 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Just as vanilla is objectively the best tasting ice cream.
That's nonsense. Flush mounting does NOT cause a destructive interference from the back wall. Mounting a speaker in front of it does. This is not a matter of preference but physics.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Sure it does. You're willing to give up the toe-in flexibility I want in order to not have a SBIR notch. I'm willing to accept a SBIR notch (and address it with absorption) in order to have toe-in flexibility that in-ceiling speakers do not have.
I've shown an in-wall speaker that can be toed-in ±30° while still preventing destructive interference. So why would I go for an inferior mounting method if I don't need a larger toe-in? If the amount of toe-in isn't enough in your or anyone's individual case then you have to bite the bullet and go for on-wall with absorption. Nevertheless the objectively better solution would be flush-mounted in-wall, it's just not possible in your case.

By the way, just to show how deep the notch can be:



http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post4006542

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post #2466 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by hogues View Post
Thinking of going 5.1.4 but I my ceiling is only 7'2' and I see that the recommended height for the atmos add-on speakers is 8 feet. If I go with in ceiling speakers would just over 7 feet be ok or just a waste of time? I would sit about 9 feet from the screen and have the first pair of atmos speakers a few feet in front of the screen and the second pair a couple of feet behind me. Thanks for any advice!
Andrew Jones addressed this specifically in one of the HTG podcasts IIRC. He said that it wouldn't matter all that much if the Atmos speakers didn't see a clear 8 feet. So I wouldn’t worry personally if you want to use Atmos speakers. He also said that many people prefer the Atmos speakers to ceiling speakers (in or on) because the reflected nature of the sound can give an apparent increase in ceiling height over fixed speakers.

I would concentrate more on the published angles than on the distances - the distances (delays) will be taken care of to a large extent by your room EQ.
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post #2467 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The two Atmos theatres closest to me are both Krikorian and both showing 'Lucy' in Atmos (probably a less bombastic soundtrack than 'Hercules'). Thankfully, ticket prices for the first show of the day are $7.75 and $10 (one of the two theatres has a premium auditorium, with better seats and a bigger screen, hence the higher price). Still, can't beat that for hearing a movie in Atmos.
Way cheaper than the $18 I had to pay on Monday. Oddly, even though the 11am Monday showing is almost always played to about half a dozen people (which is why it is my favorite time to go), they haven't cottoned on to the idea of charging much less for that showing in order to try to fill more seats. Long may that be the case IMO!


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post #2468 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Are they in the right position for Atmos is the first question that springs to mind? IOW, do they meet the angle requirements in the oft-posted diagram? If so, then I see no reason why they wouldn't work well for Atmos if they currently work well for 7.1.

Mu understanding of it is that either in-ceiling or on-ceiling designs will work well for Atmos, so it becomes a matter of individual choice. In-ceilings may have some inherent benefits, but they also have some inherent drawbacks. Same for on-ceilings. Only an individual can balance these.

I've already decided I can't accommodate any in-ceiling designs that I would want. And/or they would be too difficult to work with from a practical POV.

One other benefit of my decision to go with on-ceiling designs is that I can fairly easily move them about and experiment with different positions, whereas this will be impossible with in-ceiling designs. Once the hole is cut, it is cut. I intend to experiment because of the Atmos overlap of possible angles. For example, I can specify a Front Height + Top Middle scenario, and with only a smallish move of the Top Middles I can make them Top Rears and this will then allow me a Top Front and Top Rear scenario. I can then compare FH+TM with TF+TR and see which is better, if any. And all I have to do is make sure I have enough speaker wire to allow me to move the speakers. Once I have experimented, I just have some very small holes to repair, where the speakers were fixed to the ceiling. Nice and easy, nice and flexible and it allows me to listen before I commit. In-ceiling designs are a once-and-for-all thing because moving them and filling the holes might not be very easy at all. Especially if the joists go the 'wrong' way, which IME is always.
Well, using the image oft-cited for "ideal" speaker placement, I would opt for the top front and top rear setup in either a 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 depending on what I decide to do about in-room surrounds. This means the top front pair (with an ideal range of 30-55 degrees) fall at approx. 43 degrees while the top rear pair (with an ideal range of 125-150 degrees) fall at approx. 110 degrees. So it seems with my current MLP that one set fits within the range and the other not. Having said that, relocating the MLP approx. 12" forward would put both sets in range and probably not impact my viewing experience.

I do agree that add-ons give one more flexibility (especially for those with measuring equipment) but if we're to take the diagram published at face value then one presumes the average of each range is the optimal, correct? I guess it's still too early to know for sure but I was curious about the pros/cons of add-ons vs. in-ceiling for the height speakers. I think everyone makes valid points for their particular setups so I was just wondering if either worked, which would be preferred?
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post #2469 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by hogues View Post
Thinking of going 5.1.4 but I my ceiling is only 7'2' and I see that the recommended height for the atmos add-on speakers is 8 feet. If I go with in ceiling speakers would just over 7 feet be ok or just a waste of time? I would sit about 9 feet from the screen and have the first pair of atmos speakers a few feet in front of the screen and the second pair a couple of feet behind me. Thanks for any advice!
Home theater is all about compromise, few peeople can have "perfection" in their setups. Considering the speakers won't be directly over your head I think you will be fine. It would probably be more of an issue with a x.x.2 setup with Top Middle speakers directly overhead.
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post #2470 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
An optimist says his glass is half full. A pessimist says his glass is half empty. An engineer says you have the wrong size glass.
Yeah, that's another good one; the version I heard is "the engineer sees a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be."
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post #2471 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 01:57 PM
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Flush mounting does NOT cause a destructive interference from the back wall. Mounting a speaker in front of it does.
Flush mounting does NOT allow me the toe-in flexibility I want. Mounting the speaker below the ceiling does.
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
So why would I go for an inferior mounting method if I don't need a larger toe-in?
So why would you project your needs onto everyone else?

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post #2472 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Flush mounting does NOT allow me the toe-in flexibility I want. Mounting the speaker below the ceiling does.
Yes, after describing your specific situation this is a compromise you have to make.

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
So why would you project your needs onto everyone else?
I don't. I just describe what would be objectively the best solution (in terms of sound quality).
I can't possibly make general statements about what would be best in ANY room like you did. What I can describe though is what would be the best mounting method, the second best, etc. pp. That is not the same as projecting my needs onto everyone else.

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post #2473 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 02:09 PM
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Yes, after describing your specific situation this is a compromise you have to make.
Less of a compromise than your alternative, where there is no boundary notch but also no chance of having the toe-in flexibility I want. At least with my approach, I get the flexibility I want and have the chance to address the boundary notch (unless you're now going to claim that flush mounting is the only way to deal with it).
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post #2474 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Less of a compromise than your alternative, where there is no boundary notch but also no chance of having the toe-in flexibility I want. At least with my approach, I get the flexibility I want and can address the boundary notch (unless you're now going to claim that flush mounting is the only way to deal with it).
Good luck dealing with it

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post #2475 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
Hercules 3D is playing in dolby atmos they want $15.50 for an adult and $13.00 for Senior and $12.50 for child at our local Regal theatre might have to check it out
$17.50 + tax (12%) here for IMAX 3D (without Dolby Atmos)!
...And no Dolby Atmos theaters @ all on my Island.

I want it, real bad, @ home!

* Just think about it for a sec: You go to the IMAX theater with your wife and five kids.
...Then everyone with popcorn and soda pops and licorice and toffee caramel and M&M mini-chocolates.
How much do you think a roughly two-hour flick will cost all together after gas going there and back?
{You live 70 miles from that Theater and you drive a Cadillac Deluxe Edition 2014 model, and with the price of gas here in Canada on Vancouver Island.}

Or, the kids want to go to the nearest Dolby Atmos theater, which is on the main land, and three hours drive from the Ferry terminal!
- Don't even bother to think about it; I'll tell you how much, about thousand bucks!

So, four small coaxial overhead speakers and a new receiver (or SSP) is a great alternative. ...Would you say, after watching ten or so movies recorded on Blu-ray and encoded with Dolby Atmos audio surround sound?
The future looks better/brighter @ home in the countryside than in the big city. ...To me it sure does.

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post #2476 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
$17.50 + tax (12%) here for IMAX 3D (without Dolby Atmos)!
...And no Dolby Atmos theaters @ all on my Island.

I want it, real bad, @ home!

* Just think about it for a sec: You go to the IMAX theater with your wife and five kids.
...Then everyone with popcorn and soda pops and licorice and toffee caramel and M&M mini-chocolates.
How much do you think a roughly two-hour flick will cost all together after gas going there and back?
{You live 70 miles from that Theater and you drive a Cadillac Deluxe Edition 2014 model, and with the price of gas here in Canada on Vancouver Island.}

Or, the kids want to go to the nearest Dolby Atmos theater, which is on the main land, and three hours drive from the Ferry terminal!
- Don't even bother to think about it; I'll tell you how much, about thousand bucks!

So, four small coaxial overhead speakers and a new receiver (or SSP) is a great alternative. ...Would you say, after watching ten or so movies recorded on Blu-ray and encoded with Dolby Atmos audio surround sound?
The future looks better/brighter @ home in the countryside than in the big city. ...To me it sure does.
At home is always more beneficial the money you invest in your own system instead of eating out going to a theater eek is right on. But it's always nice to go out as well.

My main setup
PN60E8000 Plus evolution 2013Kit + Directv genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 818 9.2 Bic F12 subs Onkyo M-5010 2-Channel Amplifier for wides.
MY 10' X 15' DEN
PN51F5500 + Directv Genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2
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post #2477 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 02:52 PM
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When I get my new avr I'm looking at maybe the TX-NR 1030 then I'll experiment with speaker placement. I already have high fronts and in ceiling backs I'll hook it up as is and see what happens I'll move them if need be later.

My main setup
PN60E8000 Plus evolution 2013Kit + Directv genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 818 9.2 Bic F12 subs Onkyo M-5010 2-Channel Amplifier for wides.
MY 10' X 15' DEN
PN51F5500 + Directv Genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2

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post #2478 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 02:54 PM
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... that Marantz 8802 sounds like the real deal
Can you do 9.1.4 and 11.1.2 with that baby? ...No 11.1.4 though right? ...11.1.6 feasible?
* It's a great looking unit, with lots of copper and gold, and a very cute ass.

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post #2479 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 02:59 PM
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Good luck dealing with it
Already did with my L/C/R speakers (wasn't going to baffle mount them nor move them 4 feet into the room to drive SBIR below the crossover point, so went with absorption). Considering Roger and Keith are both mounting speakers below the ceiling, we might soon find out just how much of a problem it really is.

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post #2480 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 03:16 PM
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Thanks Keith and batpig for the responses. I am finishing my basement right now, so I am running the wires and have a couple of weeks before drywall goes up so I have to make a decision soon. Frankly I'm torn.

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post #2481 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
He also said that many people prefer the Atmos speakers to ceiling speakers (in or on) because the reflected nature of the sound can give an apparent increase in ceiling height over fixed speakers.
If the Atmos speakers are 4 feet below a 7 foot ceiling, then the reflections of those speakers are 4 feet on the other side of the ceiling. Situations like this could explain why Jones ended up preferring virtual heights to real heights at the CEDIA demo he attended.

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post #2482 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
When I get my new avr I'm looking at maybe the TX-NR 1030 then I'll experiment with speaker placement. I already have high fronts and in ceiling backs I'll hook it up as is and see what happens I'll move them if need be later.
The Onkyo TX-NR1030, with Dolby Atmos, THX Select2 Plus, AccuEQ, ...how many DSP chips inside that machine, two? ...Yes, two powerful/fast 32-Bit DSP chips. ...With BB DACs.
And, AccuEQ it don't EQ the two front main speakers? ...Does it EQ the subwoofer .1 LFE channel? ...One sub or two?

Is it true that AccuEQ requires less DSP power than Audyssey MultEQ in combination with Dolby Atmos?
Is it true that some newer Denon/Marantz units will use four DSP chips for the required computational crunching numbers for XT32 with Dolby Atmos (THX-less)?

Is it true that Onkyo/Integra is saving money with AccuEQ, Dolby Atmos, THX Ultra2 Plus equipped receivers and SSPs because it doesn't need four DSP chips, but three (and two on lower models)?

Is it true that Onkyo makes it more affordable to include Dolby Atmos in their lower receiver lineup?

Is it true that Denon/Marantz is now the one with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 in more receivers and SSPs than everyone else?

2007 was a great beginning year for Onkyo/Integra, and seven years later (2014) it seems to me that Denon/Marantz is finally back to where they once used to be.

But Denon/Marantz still don't have manual Parametric Equalization (Graphic only). ...True, neither Onkyo/Integra, for that we'll cross the bridge over to Pioneer and Yamaha.

Dolby Atmos is a totally new game in town, and it changes the course of the manufacturer's philosophy on their financial perspective.
Dolby Atmos speakers also need to be EQ, but differently. ...Still it requires more processing power, DSP.

Ultra high-end SSPs can use up to eight DSP chips (high/fast processing silicon chips), and those cost money; them SSPs retail for $5,000 up to $30,000 USD.

Some multichannel pre/pros used only two DSP chips, but two very fast and capable chips, of high storage capability.

Chips, good ones, Cirrus Logic, Shark, Texas Instruments, AKM, ...they cost few bucks. ...And the more of them the more it cost, and the better their implementation the more efficient and performing they are.
At the end of the funnel it's the sound in our rooms, sound well balanced all over, acoustically integrated by the speakers sound dispersion in direct relation to that particular room's acoustics, that counts to our ears in a well surrounding envelopment.

And, the most important part; the software, the music and movie audio soundtrack recordings.

I hope all goes well for everyone, poor and rich. ...It will.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #2483 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 03:46 PM
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I have indeed pretty much decided to go with Tannoy Di5 DC speakers for my four top speakers. I like their size, for my room, and the fact that they use a dual concentric driver design, which I think will work well with Atmos and which I always enjoyed very much with Kef when I used their speakers (UniQ), and the Tannoys have a 90 degree cone of dispersion which I also think will work well. Also, they are the baby brothers to the Di6 DCs that Roger Dressler is using in his (larger) room and I admit to being influenced by Roger's thinking.
IMO the the downside of the 5" model is that 80Hz is -10 dB, hence you need to cross at something like 100 Hz. The 6" model would be more acceptable (-10 dB is 55 Hz)...

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post #2484 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 04:22 PM
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The reason I'm leaning to the TX-NR 1030 Balanced front XLR and 11.4-multichannel pre-outs and 135 Watts per channel effortlessly handle the most dynamic of audio tracks. 8-in/3-out 4K/60 Hz HDMI® 2.0 terminals support HDCP 2.2-copy-protected 4K internet video and provide the ultimate connectivity for your future- ready home theater.
first it's the cost It will not break the bank and a first generation atmos. if this was 7 to 10 years into receivers that have had a great history with atmos then I would go with a higher end model..... so for me baby steps. I'll start with a less expensive one..... I've learned my lesson especially when they say it's future proof....

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PN60E8000 Plus evolution 2013Kit + Directv genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 818 9.2 Bic F12 subs Onkyo M-5010 2-Channel Amplifier for wides.
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PN51F5500 + Directv Genie + Panasonic 3D blu-ray player + Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2

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post #2485 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 04:24 PM
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Already did with my L/C/R speakers (wasn't going to baffle mount them nor move them 4 feet into the room to drive SBIR below the crossover point, so went with absorption). Considering Roger and Keith are both mounting speakers below the ceiling, we might soon find out just how much of a problem it really is.
Dolby's London demo suite ("the best Atmos experience in Europe") had speakers mounted below the ceiling. So did the Atmos cinema I went to on Monday. Am I missing something?

I have no choice but to mount mine that way - but you can be sure I will report back on how they work.


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post #2486 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 04:25 PM
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...Yes, two powerful/fast 32-Bit DSP chips. ...
Ultra high-end SSPs can use up to eight DSP chips (high/fast processing silicon chips), and those cost money; them SSPs retail for $5,000 up to $30,000 USD.
Chips, good ones, Cirrus Logic, Shark, Texas Instruments, AKM, ...they cost few bucks. ...And the more of them the more it cost, and the better their implementation the more efficient and performing they are.
(a bit of selective quoting there...) in the grand scheme of things, those chips are neither powerful nor fast. On the other hand, they are low power, require little (no?) cooling and seem to be cheap as chips.

It's a mystery to me as to why we don't see greater processing power in a prepro & it would be interesting to hear from someone on the manufacturing/design side to explain this. Processing power is *everywhere* these days and it is overwhelmingly processing power that is passively cooled & sips electricity. The current prepro approach seems stuck in 2005 as far as I can see.
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post #2487 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 04:25 PM
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I'm not sure I can post this here but Axiom just announced a new concentric in ceiling based off their M3 driver dimensions.

http://axiomaudio.com/m3-in-ceiling-...n=July2014#t-0

I think I can, I think I can
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post #2488 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 04:27 PM
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If the Atmos speakers are 4 feet below a 7 foot ceiling, then the reflections of those speakers are 4 feet on the other side of the ceiling. Situations like this could explain why Jones ended up preferring virtual heights to real heights at the CEDIA demo he attended.
Yep. Unfortunately, at my demo I didn't get long enough to compare physical and Atmos speakers from that perspective. I did report how incredibly spacious and 'huge sounding' the cave scene was though and that was played via Atmos speakers. If you get the chance to do a more thorough comparison when you attend your HT demo, I am sure everyone would love to hear your findings.


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post #2489 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 04:29 PM
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IMO the the downside of the 5" model is that 80Hz is -10 dB, hence you need to cross at something like 100 Hz. The 6" model would be more acceptable (-10 dB is 55 Hz)...
True but I can't accommodate the 6 inch version. I don't see crossing to my Submersives at 100Hz as a downside though, and in fact cross all my speakers at 100Hz anyway already. I'm comfortable with crossing the Tannoys at 120Hz if my measurements and listening tests show it to be advantageous.


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post #2490 of 8432 Old 07-29-2014, 04:50 PM
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When you're all done with personal derogative comments and backslapping, could we please get back on topic? There's a difference between attacking a post and attacking a poster. Some of you crossed the line.
If you're upset that I called you an engineer, I apologize.

Unless you are one.

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