The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 84 - AVS Forum
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post #2491 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post
I think in ceiling would be better for many reasons. One is if you sit in a typical room with a 8' ceiling and you're ears are 4' off the ground, it doesn't give the ceiling speaker much room to disperse the sound. If the drivers are say 8" lower, that makes it even more difficult.


Another problem is with lighting. If you have in ceiling lighting, do you want speaker shadows? I guess it's not an issue if your room is a dedicated theater with the lights off, but if it's a family room, it may be an issue.


I have a cathedral ceiling so the whole speaker ceiling thing will require a lot of thought. I don't think Atmos is designed for cathedral or sloped ceilings.
I have always maintained the ideology that in ceiling speakers should remain in hospitals, supermarkets and office complex's.

I have seen very name brand speakers ceiling installed in so called million dollar HT's. Every time the sound switched to them, it sounded identical to "Clean up on isle 7, clean up on isle 7."

Speakers "mounted to the ceiling" offer a much more controlled sound, as they were built for this.

I always get asked were i get my objective views from. They are not objective, they are fact.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2492 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 06:30 PM
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Last month, a number of hardware manufacturers officially lifted the lid off of the AV industry's worst-kept secret: Dolby Atmos was finally coming home........

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2493 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That seems like a very nice option -- and they specifically mention Atmos in the description (coincidence?!?!). Axiom makes very neutral speakers so they should be easy to calibrate and "match" the rest of the setup without being obstrusive. $350/pair pre-order price is pretty nice too, especially for an in-ceiling speaker with an integrated enclosure.
Very timely.
I went out of my way to remove the can lights now I want to cut holes.
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post #2494 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
For the last 20+ years my height("presence") speakers have been mounted high on the front and rear walls of rooms used for my home theater systems . . . close to where the "intelligent designers" at Yamaha had suggested I install them. If any of those speakers wish to relocate to the ceiling, they will need to evolve an independent means of locomotion and reattachment sufficient to do so under their own power (and remember to reattach their earthquake tethers after the move!)

Notwithstanding the 'persuasive eloquence' of this forum somewhat to the contrary, I suspect that the vast majority of AVR owners with existing DPLIIz, DSX, Neo:X, or CinemaDSP height speakers already in place, will chose to leave them exactly where they are already installed until the 'unfitness' of any such existing location for Dolby Atmos playback is clearly demonstrated in their own home!
_
I can't really see how these will work in any way that would produce an acceptable result.

When you pan a sound overhead it's going to to jump forwards or backwards if using height.speakers above you mains in the same plane.

It's just not going to work IMO.
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post #2495 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 06:50 PM
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"Dolby Director of Sound Research Brett Crockett also clarified that, since Atmos at home is being delivered as an extension of Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital Plus, you won't need a new Blu-ray player or media streamer (or new HDMI cables) to deliver the format to compatible receivers and pre/pros. You'll merely need to ensure that your player's output is set to bitstream instead of PCM. It stands to reason that Dolby will release a white paper at some point before September giving more details about optimal speaker placement, but until then I wouldn't go cutting extra holes in your ceilings just yet."

I, for one, am so glad i haven't pulled the hole saw out yet.

And the payoff is never certain: Some observers contend that a generation has already been trained to be content with the small screen.
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post #2496 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
Notwithstanding the 'persuasive eloquence' of this forum somewhat to the contrary, I suspect that the vast majority of AVR owners with existing DPLIIz, DSX, Neo:X, or CinemaDSP height speakers already in place, will chose to leave them exactly where they are already installed until the 'unfitness' of any such existing location for Dolby Atmos playback is clearly demonstrated in their own home!

All of which means that I look forward with some interest to finding out just what DTS is "promising" with the stated DTS-UHD "benefit", viz: "Customized rendering designed for arbitrary speaker layouts enables consumers to adapt their AV system to their own home environment rather than pre-determined speaker layouts"...?!
_
My sentiments--to a "T". I'm one of the presumptive "majority of AVR owners" (i.e., I don't have a dedicated HT nor the acumen or exacting audiophile expectations of some of the advanced contributors here) who, while excited and enticed by the promise of Atmos, will be following precisely the game plan put forth by SoundChex above. If the result is unsatisfactory, only then will I consider a "forced relocation" of speaker assets. But by then maybe DTS-UHD will have rendered the issue OBE.
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post #2497 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
And as PLIIz has gone with the advent of Atmos (which was the only 'height mode' I used) there is no downside for me.
I just want to point out, for those who might have missed it, that Dolby PLIIz is being replaced by Dolby Surround, which I assume will offer similar matrixing for "traditional" height speakers.
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post #2498 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 07:37 PM
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I have a 11.2 setup with wides and heights as well as the usual 7 channels.

My heights are close to, but not in the ceiling. I wonder if I can just use these as front ceiling?

Saves me a fair bit of wiring and carpentry...

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post #2499 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
IMO the the downside of the 5" model is that 80Hz is -10 dB, hence you need to cross at something like 100 Hz. The 6" model would be more acceptable (-10 dB is 55 Hz)...
Very good point Erwin. ...And that is my intention, to use that driver's size.

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post #2500 of 9840 Old 07-29-2014, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
The reason I'm leaning to the TX-NR 1030 Balanced front XLR and 11.4-multichannel pre-outs and 135 Watts per channel effortlessly handle the most dynamic of audio tracks. 8-in/3-out 4K/60 Hz HDMI® 2.0 terminals support HDCP 2.2-copy-protected 4K internet video and provide the ultimate connectivity for your future- ready home theater.
first it's the cost It will not break the bank and a first generation atmos. if this was 7 to 10 years into receivers that have had a great history with atmos then I would go with a higher end model..... so for me baby steps. I'll start with a less expensive one..... I've learned my lesson especially when they say it's future proof....
Excellent line of thinking, and furthermore, because you now own the Onkyo TX-NR818 receiver it will be very interesting for you to compare the two; one with Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (Atmos-less but with Audyssey DSX and DTS Neo:X), and the other with AccuEQ plus Dolby Atmos.

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Last edited by NorthSky; 07-30-2014 at 12:21 AM. Reason: + (plus)
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post #2501 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 02:17 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
True but I can't accommodate the 6 inch version. I don't see crossing to my Submersives at 100Hz as a downside though, and in fact cross all my speakers at 100Hz anyway already. I'm comfortable with crossing the Tannoys at 120Hz if my measurements and listening tests show it to be advantageous.
Keith,

Understand you're interested in getting the Tannoy DSi5 for the ceiling speakers due to their coaxial/concentric design.

Not sure about the cost for the Tannoy DSi5, but have you also looked at the KEF E301? The KEF have a similar concentric design and the price seems reasonable for a pair: http://www.kefstore.co.uk/e301-satellites-655-p.asp

The KEF E301 comes with a base foot. The foot is designed to be wall mounted, so assume that it can also be ceiling mounted. There's also ball joint that makes it possible to toe-in the unit, though the angles are not that great, estimate is about +/-15 deg.

Checking out the specs between the Tannoy and KEF:
KEF
  • Sensitivity: 86db/W/m
  • Nominal impedance: 8 ohms
  • lower -3dB: 90Hz
  • upper -3dB: 33kHz
  • weight: 5.3lbs
  • Dimensions (HxWxD): 10.2'x5.4'x6.3'
  • Nominal power: 100W
  • Maximum output: 109dB

Tannoy
  • Sensitivity: 88db/W/m
  • Nominal impedance: 6 ohms
  • lower -3dB: 90Hz
  • upper -3dB: 25kHz
  • weight: 5.94lbs
  • Dimensions (HxWxD): 9.47'x6.1'x6.38'
  • Nominal power: 100W
  • Maximum output: 111dB

What I'm not sure of is the directivity of the KEF vs. the Tannoy. The specs for both the KEF and Tannoy are similar. The best part of the KEF E301 is that it comes in two decor friendly colors, which means matching with a white ceiling is possible. I also think the KEF looks a bit nicer.

Unit the specs for the top ceiling mounted speakers are available from Dolby, not sure if mixing different brand of speakers will be a problem. I'm hoping that the often mentioned 180Hz crossover for the top ceiling speakers is correct as opens up a number of possibilities.

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post #2502 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I can't really see how these will work in any way that would produce an acceptable result.

When you pan a sound overhead it's going to to jump forwards or backwards if using height.speakers above you mains in the same plane.

It's just not going to work IMO.

Are you saying that the combination of Front Height and, say, Top Rear would not work? Denon are offering that combination as one of their Atmos modes, and according to their oft-posted diagram (I apologise for posting it yet again but from the context this time think it would be useful) Front Heights as described by SoundChex would be acceptable.

Here is the diagram:



And here are Denon's suggested speaker combinations which will work with Atmos:

Front Height + Top Middle
Front Height + Top Rear
Front Height + Rear Height
Top Front + Top Rear (default)
Top Front + Rear Height
Top Middle + Rear Height


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post #2503 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Keith,

Understand you're interested in getting the Tannoy DSi5 for the ceiling speakers due to their coaxial/concentric design.
I am a big fan of Kef and have used the smaller version of those 'eggs' before for my PLIIz Height speakers, ages ago. The specs for the ones you mention are remarkably similar to the Tannoys aren't they! I would think they (Kefs) ought to work just fine.

I think I personally will stay with the Tannoys - they are a better 'shape' for my room and using the C mount bracket they will be very easy for me to mount. I agree that the Kefs look better but that isn't a consideration for me as the HT is a dedicated room and is painted black and gray, so the speakers will be invisible once the movie is underway. Also, I am very keen on the 90 degree dispersion of the Tannoys for this application (although the Kefs may be the same or similar - an email to Kef will provide that info if it isn't in their spec sheet - Kef are very responsive IME).

WRT to using speakers from different manufacturers in the same setup, I have always strived to use 'matching' speakers where possible. However in my current situation, MK Sound don't make a suitable speaker for my purpose (they do an in-wall speaker but I have already discounted them for reasons already explained). I am heartened by Roger Dressler's remarks that using speakers from the same manufacturer was highly recommended in the days before electronic EQ, but now that we have EQ we can timbre match speakers by that method to our satisfaction. I am sure he is right.


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Last edited by kbarnes701; 07-30-2014 at 02:42 AM.
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post #2504 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by action_jackson View Post
This fall there will be new blu rays released that have Atmos content for you to purchase at retail.

If you happen to buy one of these "NEW" Atmos mastered BDs and it happens to be the same movie that Keith was watching in the demo, you will be listening to the exact same Atmos content that he previewed.
When the "content" with Dolby Atmos retail hits the shelfs, how will it be labeled? When DTS came out we knew. when D-Box came out it was immediately on BD label. It would be nice to know what to expect. When Sony came out with their 10-15 "4K" bluray's they sold out before anyone had 4k tv's. I expect Dolby Atmos demo disks will start to pop out like 3d demo disks before we had 3d content. It is the same pattern. But you know what, I like the next tech thing as my system just gets better and my wallet gets lighter. I used to pass my older equipment on to my kids, but now they seem to have better than what i have!
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post #2505 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BillFree View Post
When the "content" with Dolby Atmos retail hits the shelfs, how will it be labeled? When DTS came out we knew. when D-Box came out it was immediately on BD label. It would be nice to know what to expect. When Sony came out with their 10-15 "4K" bluray's they sold out before anyone had 4k tv's. I expect Dolby Atmos demo disks will start to pop out like 3d demo disks before we had 3d content. It is the same pattern. But you know what, I like the next tech thing as my system just gets better and my wallet gets lighter. I used to pass my older equipment on to my kids, but now they seem to have better than what i have!
I'm sure the native content will get enough media coverage and if one is still in doubt, you need only look for the audio codec info that's printed at the back of the bluray box.

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post #2506 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Are you saying that the combination of Front Height and, say, Top Rear would not work? Denon are offering that combination as one of their Atmos modes, and according to their oft-posted diagram (I apologise for posting it yet again but from the context this time think it would be useful) Front Heights as described by SoundChex would be acceptable.

Here is the diagram:



And here are Denon's suggested speaker combinations which will work with Atmos:

Front Height + Top Middle
Front Height + Top Rear
Front Height + Rear Height
Top Front + Top Rear (default)
Top Front + Rear Height
Top Middle + Rear Height



What do you do if you want to use a "speaker from Hell" to reproduce sounds from down below?
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post #2507 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
What do you do if you want to use a "speaker from Hell" to reproduce sounds from down below?
Take a look at:

parts-express.com/cat/tactile-transducers-exciters-bass-shakers/18
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Last edited by Chucka; 07-30-2014 at 07:57 AM.
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post #2508 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by BillFree View Post
When the "content" with Dolby Atmos retail hits the shelfs, how will it be labeled?
since Atmos BD's haven't even been announced by ANY studio, it's kind of hard to answer

you'll find out the same time as the rest of us.

Steve
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post #2509 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 08:37 AM
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since Atmos BD's haven't even been announced by ANY studio, it's kind of hard to answer

you'll find out the same time as the rest of us.
If the studios consider this a "Premium" sonic experience, then I would suspect Dolby Atmos might be emblazoned on the front cover. I don't know if the industry wants to downplay Atmos with a tiny logo on the back with all the other fine-print clutter like they do with regular DTS and Dolby tracks.

This is supposed to be the "next big thing" like 3D. Hopefully, without 3D's lackadaisical adoption.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #2510 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by BillFree View Post
When the "content" with Dolby Atmos retail hits the shelfs, how will it be labeled?
"Blu-ray disc packaging will carry such designations as 5.1.4 or 7.1.4 to indicate the number of speakers that the soundtrack is optimized for."

http://www.twice.com/blog/reporters-...60fa3-87254233

I'm hoping that the author of the above article misinterpreted the info about labeling. Indicating "the number of speakers" is a bad idea for labeling soundtracks, even more so when it is object based.
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post #2511 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex View Post
For the last 20+ years my height("presence") speakers have been mounted high on the front and rear walls of rooms used for my home theater systems . . . close to where the "intelligent designers" at Yamaha had suggested I install them. If any of those speakers wish to relocate to the ceiling, they will need to evolve an independent means of locomotion and reattachment sufficient to do so under their own power (and remember to reattach their earthquake tethers after the move!)

Notwithstanding the 'persuasive eloquence' of this forum somewhat to the contrary, I suspect that the vast majority of AVR owners with existing DPLIIz, DSX, Neo:X, or CinemaDSP height speakers already in place, will chose to leave them exactly where they are already installed until the 'unfitness' of any such existing location for Dolby Atmos playback is clearly demonstrated in their own home!

All of which means that I look forward with some interest to finding out just what DTS is "promising" with the stated DTS-UHD "benefit", viz: "Customized rendering designed for arbitrary speaker layouts enables consumers to adapt their AV system to their own home environment rather than pre-determined speaker layouts"...?!
_
Good one.


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post #2512 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
If the studios consider this a "Premium" sonic experience, then I would suspect Dolby Atmos might be emblazoned on the front cover. I don't know if the industry wants to downplay Atmos with a tiny logo on the back with all the other fine-print clutter like they do with regular DTS and Dolby tracks.

This is supposed to be the "next big thing" like 3D. Hopefully, without 3D's lackadaisical adoption.
Yeah, I wonder if there'll be a nice, new, bigger and bolder price tag too?

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post #2513 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
If the studios consider this a "Premium" sonic experience, then I would suspect Dolby Atmos might be emblazoned on the front cover.
I would hope they'd do that. We'll find out

On labeling the "optimum" speaker arrangement - if the engine is supposed to use accommodate all supported speaker configurations adding an optimum setup is actually not only irrelevant but should be technically incorrect for the objects. All that labeling would do is reinforce the idea of channels vs objects & defeat Dolby's whole concept of what Atmos is about.

If the studios do that, it would be a bad idea for the technology, the marketing of it, and cause customer confusion & concern if they didn't have the same speaker setup as what's on the box.
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post #2514 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by redjr View Post
Yeah, I wonder if there'll be a nice, new, bigger and bolder price tag too?
no doubt. it will be a premium priced double dip

what would really suck is if studios started bundling the Atmos BD with their super combos (Blu-3D Blu-DVD-Digital) and the only way to get the Atmos version is buy the whole dam combo. I wouldn't be surprised if they did this. Really hoping they don't since that would really be anti-consumer and a blatant money grab for double dip titles.

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post #2515 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 10:06 AM
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I seriously doubt a price increase with Atmos-enabled titles.


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post #2516 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
I would hope they'd do that. We'll find out

On labeling the "optimum" speaker arrangement - if the engine is supposed to use accommodate all supported speaker configurations adding an optimum setup is actually not only irrelevant but should be technically incorrect for the objects. All that labeling would do is reinforce the idea of channels vs objects & defeat Dolby's whole concept of what Atmos is about.

If the studios do that, it would be a bad idea for the technology, the marketing of it, and cause customer confusion & concern if they didn't have the same speaker setup as what's on the box.
It might lead to confusion, no doubt. However, to us it might mean that the track had a 5.1 channel bed with objects (where the back surround speakers are only used for object placements) or a 7.1 channel bed with objects (closer to the cinema version where the stereo back surrounds are part of the channel bed and can contain music and ambiance as well, not just objects). I would rather hope for the latter and not the former, but who knows?

Either way, Dolby has stated these tracks can still render out to 32 (plus subs) separate outputs.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #2517 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 10:28 AM
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Either way, Dolby has stated these tracks can still render out to 32 (plus subs) separate outputs.
Dolby has never stated that, instead saying on its blog "as many as 24 speakers on the floor and 10 overhead speakers", for a total of 34 (not 32) speakers. Subwoofers are a result of bass management, not Atmos.

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post #2518 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 10:36 AM
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I seriously doubt a price increase with Atmos-enabled titles.
Don't throw cold water on the outrage machine. Posters are wanting to get upset over the premium prices that they fabricated in their imagination and here you are talking sense.
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post #2519 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 10:40 AM
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^^
and here I was trying to feed the angry beast

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post #2520 of 9840 Old 07-30-2014, 10:45 AM
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Dolby has never stated that, instead saying on its blog "as many as 24 speakers on the floor and 10 overhead speakers", for a total of 34 (not 32) speakers. Subwoofers are a result of bass management, not Atmos.
Two of the "channels" are for sub outputs just like with commercial Atmos, which isn't 64 outputs but 62 plus subs (62.2). I would imagine they meant something like 32.2.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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