The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 87 - AVS Forum
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post #2581 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Keith, mon vieux, est-que c'est possible que tu aies oublié la contribution d'Hugo? Quel honte!

Hugo S provided a link to his review (in French) of a demo he attended on July 18 in Paris given by Onkyo. I found his experience particularly interesting since it was presented in an untreated, plain-vanilla living room in a 5.1.2 format (using up-firing Atmos add-on speaker modules)--so nothing at all fancy. And yet he was impressed with the 3D audio immersion.

If you don't read French, you can try using an on-line translator. Or, if Hugo is not lurking, I would be happy to answer any questions in his stead.
Comment aurais-je oublié mon ami Hugo! Je m'excuse sincèrement pour lui. Aux petits oignons!!

Yes, Hugo's report was terrific!
Hugo S likes this.
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post #2582 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 06:38 AM
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Is the content the same with what ever content is sent to the ceiling speakers if your using just two speakers or four speakers what I'm asking by using four speakers does that just expand it to fill the room or does different content go to the rear ceiling speakers....

My main setup PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle Bic Acoustech speakers,MICCA M-8S FH/TM on wall / in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs
MY 10' X 15' DEN PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray / Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos / Bose 161 top front on Ceiling Speakers
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post #2583 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by bargervais View Post
Is the content the same with what ever content is sent to the ceiling speakers if your using just two speakers or four speakers what I'm asking by using four speakers does that just expand it to fill the room or does different content go to the rear ceiling speakers....
I assume the effect will vary if you select 5.1.2 or 5.1.4. For example, on a front-to-back pan, one would assume that the sound will pan more realistically if there are two sets of top speakers for it to use. The sound would start in Top Front and pan to Top Back. If you only have 5.1.2 with just Top Middle speakers, that can't happen. By telling the AVR which configuration you are using, it will know what to do with the panned sound. The content may be the same in all cases, but how it is handled is going to be different. These are assumptions on my part and I readily defer to anyone who knows more (eg FilmMixer).

My feeling is that 5.1.2 will be better than what we have now, but not as good as 5.1.4.
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post #2584 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Comment aurais-je oublié mon ami Hugo! Je m'excuse sincèrement pour lui. Aux petits oignons!!

Yes, Hugo's report was terrific!
Maybe you were just trying to adhere to the old prescript: "Occupe-toi de tes oignons!"

Last edited by chi_guy50; 07-31-2014 at 07:36 AM.
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post #2585 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 07:33 AM
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Maybe you were just trying to adhere to the old prescript" "Occupe-toi de tes oignons!"
Toujours!!
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post #2586 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Maybe you were just trying to adhere to the old prescript: "Occupe-toi de tes oignons!"
Make yourself busy with the onions?

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post #2587 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 08:09 AM
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Make yourself busy with the onions?
Oh no, let me guess: Google Translator?

It's a French colloquialism for "Mind your own bee's wax!"

(I was making a play on words based on Keith's attachment to the expression "aux petits oignons" which means "first rate.")
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post #2588 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 08:17 AM
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My Home Theater Room uses these 2' x 2' black ceiling tiles from ISC Supply:


http://www.iscsupply.com/index.php?l...ct_detail&p=33


ISC Black Cinetile Matte ceiling tiles are made from different thickness of lightweight, semi-rigid 2-3 lb density fiberglass with a non-woven Matte laminated to the face. The Matte facing is dyed black so there is no paint to chip over time and it is completely smooth with no sheen so you get a black ceiling panel that will blend in and look great.
In addition to looking great, the facing breathes so that with a 5/8" Thick fiberglass you still achieve an NRC value of .75. For extreme situations, we can use 1" fiberglass and achieve an NRC of .95.


So I guess using Pioneer's new Atmos-enabled speakers wouldn't work for that room unless I swapped out some of those panels with a more reflective tile?

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post #2589 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
My Home Theater Room uses these 2' x 2' black ceiling tiles from ISC Supply:


http://www.iscsupply.com/index.php?l...ct_detail&p=33


ISC Black Cinetile Matte ceiling tiles are made from different thickness of lightweight, semi-rigid 2-3 lb density fiberglass with a non-woven Matte laminated to the face. The Matte facing is dyed black so there is no paint to chip over time and it is completely smooth with no sheen so you get a black ceiling panel that will blend in and look great.
In addition to looking great, the facing breathes so that with a 5/8" Thick fiberglass you still achieve an NRC value of .75. For extreme situations, we can use 1" fiberglass and achieve an NRC of .95.


So I guess using Pioneer's new Atmos-enabled speakers wouldn't work for that room unless I swapped out some of those panels with a more reflective tile?
That's right. Dolby specifies that the ceiling must be made of normally reflective materials - eg plasterboard, wood etc. Only the areas where the Atmos speakers 'beam' to would need to be 'untreated' though.
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post #2590 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 08:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tjenkins95 View Post
So I guess using Pioneer's new Atmos-enabled speakers wouldn't work for that room unless I swapped out some of those panels with a more reflective tile?
No, it wouldn't work especially when you consider that the absorptive tiles are optimally placed at exactly the same locations where the ceiling-firing speaker will point to.

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post #2591 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
That's right. Dolby specifies that the ceiling must be made of normally reflective materials - eg plasterboard, wood etc. Only the areas where the Atmos speakers 'beam' to would need to be 'untreated' though.

Thanks for the reply. I could easily swap out and replace a couple of the panels with reflective ones. I have future plans to move my HT to a larger room which does have a plastered ceiling but I am not planning to do that until next year. Thanks!

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post #2592 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I assume the effect will vary if you select 5.1.2 or 5.1.4. For example, on a front-to-back pan, one would assume that the sound will pan more realistically if there are two sets of top speakers for it to use. The sound would start in Top Front and pan to Top Back. If you only have 5.1.2 with just Top Middle speakers, that can't happen. By telling the AVR which configuration you are using, it will know what to do with the panned sound. The content may be the same in all cases, but how it is handled is going to be different. These are assumptions on my part and I readily defer to anyone who knows more (eg FilmMixer).

My feeling is that 5.1.2 will be better than what we have now, but not as good as 5.1.4.
Thanks for the reply that was my thinking as well as most people will come from a 5.1 set up adding two speakers i think that will be very common as most BD's are 5.1 now so going to 5.1.2 will be a nice upgrade. for me i'm hoping to go to 7.2.4 and with the hopes of using wides as well if the AV will alow it in atmos listening mode my wish is 9.2.4....

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MY 10' X 15' DEN PN51F5500 / Directv Genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray / Onkyo TX-NR 737 5.2.2 Atmos / Bose 161 top front on Ceiling Speakers

Last edited by bargervais; 07-31-2014 at 09:01 AM.
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post #2593 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 09:32 AM
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8 foot ceiling height is suggested, does this mean Atmos can be set up in a room with a 7 foot ceiling but just not as immersive?

Or, not enought distance and soundwaves/reflections are bouncing into each other?
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post #2594 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
8 foot ceiling height is suggested, does this mean Atmos can be set up in a room with a 7 foot ceiling but just not as immersive?

Or, not enough distance and soundwaves/reflections are bouncing into each other?
Andrew Jones (designer of Pioneer speakers) says a 7', 6" high ceiling would probably not be much different. 7 foot is cutting things awful close. It has something to do with sound wave reflection angles.

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post #2595 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 09:37 AM
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I was thinking, maybe set the bookshelves a foot lower.
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post #2596 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 09:44 AM
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If the definition of work is to have the listener perceive the sound for above, how can a prediction be made without considering the ceiling type and listening position?

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post #2597 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:14 AM
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I've read every scrap of information I've been able to find on Atmos, and now "Home Atmos".

I'm of the opinion we're getting royally screwed, even more so than the failed THX experiment.

As an acoustical engineer, I can think of no science that would accommodate reproduction of the kind being done by movie theatre Atmos to be replicated by the speaker layouts I've seen promoted for Home Atmos. The theater installation of Atmos is barely at the beta stage, and there still is no evidence that the soundfield being created in each theater is anything like the soundfield in the dubbing room. Apparently Dolby's Emperor's New Clothes argument is enough for the studios, desperate to do anything gimmicky.

Pioneer, not a hotbed of acoustical or speaker excellence (no offense to their very qualified Andrew Jones), puts in a few ceiling-aimed drivers and expect rendering to take care of the rest? I think not. As someone remarked after one of the Atmos Home demos, "I guess Bose was right with all their reflected sound".

This premature launch by Dolby is clouding the work of the real professionals who are engaged in a home theatre solution using tools (DTS MDA, MPEG-H) that are being designed for fidelity and quality reproduction. Do I want to be stuck with 4K Blu-rays or UHDTV along will a lossy ******** audio stream as my only choice? And it's stunning that Hollywood would embrace this convoluted production stream that will be streamlined, in the fullness of time, by the real solutions that are still in the pipeline.

We've just come out of a long period of audio where portability became more important than fidelity. Fidelity is just reemerging as a desired feature in the production of music. Dolby is "first". Kudos. But it's crap. No rewards from me for crap. Let's move on. Nothing to see here.
You are not by chance member "dragonfyr" http://www.avsforum.com/forum/member...dragonfyr.html , who was very knowledgable on acoustics but got over the top at times , http://www.avsforum.com/forum/search...archid=4676474
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post #2598 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Oh no, let me guess: Google Translator?

It's a French colloquialism for "Mind your own bee's wax!"

(I was making a play on words based on Keith's attachment to the expression "aux petits oignons" which means "first rate.")
No, just my own guess. google translate probably makes a much better job. Hope you at least chuckled.

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post #2599 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:19 AM
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A possible solution for reflecting height speakers for people with vaulted/angled/too high ceilings is to hang a clear acrylic disc to reflect the sound.

Add some convex curvature to improve the dispersion.

Noah
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post #2600 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:26 AM
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A possible solution for reflecting height speakers for people with vaulted/angled/too high ceilings is to hang a clear acrylic disc to reflect the sound.

Add some convex curvature to improve the dispersion.
I have a 5.2 system and cathedral ceiling (over a 3 car garage): this is beginning to sound like a big project, with some risk, to upgrade to Dolby Atmos

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post #2601 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:31 AM
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If the definition of work is to have the listener perceive the sound for above, how can a prediction be made without considering the ceiling type and listening position?

- Rich
good point what if you add these SKH-410 speaker modulesEasy Add-On for Multi-Dimensional Surround-Sound

This pair of speakers is a convenient and affordable way to unlock the full Dolby Atmos sound experience in your home theater. You get to keep your existing speaker setup exactly as you like it, with no need to install in-ceiling speakers. The Onkyo SKH-410 speaker modules connect to your Dolby Atmos-compatible A/V receiver's height channels and are designed to sit on top of your floorstanding front speakers or on an entertainment unit.
These Black modules contain a Dolby Atmos-certified special network that allows the angled full-range driver to beam sound "objects" -such as birdcalls or an aircraft- off your ceiling and into your ears. The result is a multi-dimensional sound, with precisely localized effects moving over and all around you, an intensely realistic sonic experience that truly puts you in the middle of the scene.

what happens if your tower speakers are 40 inchs tall and you place these on top of them..... how would that effect the 8 foot ceiling height......

My main setup PN60E8000 / Directv genie / Panasonic 3D blu-ray Onkyo TX-NR 1030 7.2.4 /Onkyo M-5010 Amplifier for top middle Bic Acoustech speakers,MICCA M-8S FH/TM on wall / in ceiling speakers / 2 Bic F12 subs
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post #2602 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:45 AM
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By the way, could you prepare Atmos test files for us? I haven't put too much thought into how those test files should look like yet nor do we know how they could be played back.
No. I don't have that capability.
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post #2603 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:51 AM
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I have a 5.2 system and cathedral ceiling (over a 3 car garage): this is beginning to sound like a big project, with some risk, to upgrade to Dolby Atmos
With a cathedral ceiling I don't think Atmos speakers are going to figure in your future. So the next question is, how difficult would it be to install four physical speakers? They'd probably have to be fitted to some sort of poles to enable you to get them all to the same height. I suggested recently to a friend here in the UK (where we don't have cathedral ceilings very much) but whose ceiling is very high, that he might consider using projector ceiling mounts, which usually have provision for adding long poles (using a standard thread, so cheap enough to buy almost anywhere). At the base of the pole would be a modified PJ mounting plate, modded to hold the speaker using the speaker fixing hole(s). Note that this assumes speakers which have some sort of Omnimount fixing or something like the Tannoy Di5/6 that I am using which come with an integrated C Mount. Paint the mount and poles to match your décor prior to installation and Robert is your father's brother.

But yeah, not an easy project for someone in your situation, I agree. There may also be some sort of Pro solution for high ceilings. I wouldn't automatically assume, Mark, that the remarkable benefits of home Atmos will be denied to you.
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post #2604 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:52 AM
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..... although I do believe I could hear a difference on the demo I attended, between physical ceiling speakers and Atmos speakers, it was very subtle. That is not to say that with different ceiling speakers, of course, that the difference wouldn’t have been more pronounced. FM says the difference is very noticeable (but not in a bad way) and I respect that view, but his demo may have been with a more sophisticated ceiling speaker setup than the one I attended, where the physical speakers were very small.
Keith.. I'm curious of how they played the different speaker setups for you....

Did they play the same clip twice in a row? Did they switch in the middle?

I was able to hear AB switching in the middle of the same material as it looped.... it wasn't drastic, just different and not in an unpleasant way.
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post #2605 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 10:57 AM
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A single "full range" driver is all I could find in the ONKYO specs. Not much to go on.

IMO a fixed speaker angle designed to bounce off a ceiling would require some tuning and simply putting on top of an existing speaker only guarantees sound and not sound that appears to emanate from the proper position. In-ceiling or wall angle adjustable speakers may be a better option.

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post #2606 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 11:02 AM
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Keith.. I'm curious of how they played the different speaker setups for you....

Did they play the same clip twice in a row? Did they switch in the middle?

I was able to hear AB switching in the middle of the same material as it looped.... it wasn't drastic, just different and not in an unpleasant way.
I have to imagine that the difference between the two would be that the reflected one would provide a more fuzzy and diffuse soundfield (not necessarily a bad thing) and that the version using actual speakers on the ceiling would be more pinpoint, more anchored, directional, what have you.

In any case if I couldn't do actual speakers, I'd definitely give the reflected version a try. I certainly have the ceiling for that!

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post #2607 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 11:04 AM
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Keith.. I'm curious of how they played the different speaker setups for you....

Did they play the same clip twice in a row? Did they switch in the middle?

I was able to hear AB switching in the middle of the same material as it looped.... it wasn't drastic, just different and not in an unpleasant way.

They played the same clip twice in a row, once using the Atmos speakers and once using the ceiling speakers. No switching in the middle unfortunately. I believe I could detect a difference between the two configs in that the physical speakers seemed to me to have slightly more 'precision' in where the sounds were placed. But this was a brief demo and I would need to hear more, with preferably a blind comparison, before I could swear that I heard a difference at all. It wasn't that one was better than the other - just different. In fact, the Atmos speakers may have had a greater sense of spaciousness too, in the cave scene I am not permitted to mention by name.

The demo I attended was a joint presentation by Dolby and Onkyo and Onkyo were keen to showcase their new Atmos speakers, so there was no benefit to them to switch constantly between their speakers and the ceiling speakers.

However, on 13th August I have been invited to another Atmos demo at Dolby in London and, this time, I believe it is Dolby only, so I may get more opportunity to probe deeper. I will post my report here a day or so after the 13th.

From what I heard already, I would have no hesitation in using Atmos speakers or modules. I am only using physical speakers because, for me, in my room, that is the easier option.
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post #2608 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
A single "full range" driver is all I could find in the ONKYO specs. Not much to go on.

IMO a fixed speaker angle designed to bounce off a ceiling would require some tuning and simply putting on top of an existing speaker only guarantees sound and not sound that appears to emanate from the proper position. In-ceiling or wall angle adjustable speakers may be a better option.

- Rich
The Pioneer Atmos thread has some detailed posts from Andrew Jones which explain how the Atmos speakers actually work and how their design parameters have been established with a view to minimizing 'leakage' to the front of the soundstage. There is also DSP in the AVR which reinforces this. A useful read. It is far from 'simply putting... on top of an existing speaker'.
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post #2609 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 11:14 AM
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I have to imagine that the difference between the two would be that the reflected one would provide a more fuzzy and diffuse soundfield (not necessarily a bad thing) and that the version using actual speakers on the ceiling would be more pinpoint, more anchored, directional, what have you.
It was something like that, Scott, but it was a subtle difference on the demo I heard, not a drastic difference. Andrew Jones said that he preferred the Atmos speakers to physical speakers and I can understand that after having heard them. I will try to get deeper into it on 13th August, but I don't know how much time has been allotted for questions and alternative demos etc. Certainly at the first demo they had a lot of people to push through the six-seater HT room so getting them to deviate from their predetermined path was (understandably) not easy.
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post #2610 of 16338 Old 07-31-2014, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The Pioneer Atmos thread has some detailed posts from Andrew Jones which explain how the Atmos speakers actually work and how their design parameters have been established with a view to minimizing 'leakage' to the front of the soundstage. There is also DSP in the AVR which reinforces this. A useful read. It is far from 'simply putting... on top of an existing speaker'.
I'll read that but I was referring to the. ONKYO SKH-410 which sits atop an existing speaker with a 3.5 inch *cough* full range driver.

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