The official Dolby Atmos thread (home theater version) - Page 931 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #27901 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
I am currently running a Denon X4000 and was impressed with XT32 when I upgraded. For current ATMOS I can get the Denon X5200 or the Onkyo 3030 for about $20 difference. I know the Onkyo lacks the XT32, but has HDMI2.0 and HDCP2.2. I don't think either model is getting DTS:X. I know new models will be coming out soon, nothing major announced on Blu Ray titles that I know of for either, but I hear everybody likes DSU.
Personally, I would wait for a newer model. You have an excellent receiver right now so you aren't in a massive rush to upgrade. Hang tight, the new models with the whole shebang are only a few months away!

Also be aware that although the Onkyo does sport HDCP2.2 they have the lesser version of HDMI2.0 that has reduced bandwidth, so it likely won't support HDR or wider color gamuts with future 4K content. ALL of last year's models are at least partially crippled in some way with respect to being fully "future proof" for 4K/UHD content. Waiting gets you the full implementation of HDMI2.0a/HDCP2.2 and DTS:X support to boot.

For the time being, you can run a 9ch setup with Front Height speakers on the X4000, and then when you upgrade you just add Top Middle speakers and you are fully immersified.

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post #27902 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 03:19 PM
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Just add Dirac Live with the latest Yammy pre/pro (or AV receiver)...voila...perfect Atmos/DTS:X setup.
Well... that's one description.

It might have very well been a perfect Atmos/DTS:X setup before. Now it's just a perfect Atmos/DTS:X system with DIRAC.
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post #27903 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 03:24 PM
 
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Well... that's one description.

It might have very well been a perfect Atmos/DTS:X setup before. Now it's just a perfect Atmos/DTS:X system with DIRAC.
It all depends...YPAO.
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post #27904 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 03:24 PM
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YPAO used to be Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimizer, but as more and more models changed (and/or mixed) with graphic EQ, now YPAO stands for Yamaha Professional Acoustic Optimizer.

Furthermore, the amount of EQ tweaks that needed to be done after YPAO (especially last year's 3040) is mind boggling. If I don't tweak it to the ngh degree, my clients all claim that the Uto EQ makes the sound tin y.

I truly have to thank Yamaha as I get lots of calibration jobs due to their not-so-good YPAO system
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post #27905 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 03:29 PM
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It all depends...YPAO.
Nobody is forced to use these REQ systems yet it's so hard for people not to.

How on Earth was sound good before Audyssey or DIRAC came around to save the day?

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YPAO used to be Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimizer, but as more and more models changed (and/or mixed) with graphic EQ, now YPAO stands for Yamaha Professional Acoustic Optimizer.

Furthermore, the amount of EQ tweaks that needed to be done after YPAO (especially last year's 3040) is mind boggling. If I don't tweak it to the ngh degree, my clients all claim that the Uto EQ makes the sound tin y.

I truly have to thank Yamaha as I get lots of calibration jobs due to their not-so-good YPAO system
Hmm. Interesting. I'll see how it turns out if/when I try YPAO for the first time in my room.

But hey, if it's giving you good business, David, all good right?
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post #27906 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 03:34 PM
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So even in off-axis seats you don't get any "hot spotting" with the surrounds? Your room is pretty narrow right? I'm curious how that works, I can't seem to avoid some measure of hot spotting with aggressive/powerful surround effects.
I spent enough time sitting off-axis in Scott's room (mostly because the cup holder was on the side of the couch) to confirm that there was no hot spotting.

Part of the reason was because his side surround speakers were elevated and forward of the listeners. So if you're sitting at either end of the couch, there isn't a speaker at ear level a couple feet away firing right into your ear canal. Plus, the angled baffle had the drivers pointing towards the listener at the other end of the couch. All these things together conspired to mitigate hot spotting.

As Scott mentioned, when sitting off-axis, the imaging shifted slightly but there still continued to be lots of imaging between all the speakers. With the lights out, I could easily point to the locations of various sounds in the room. Rarely did those locations coincide with where the speakers were.
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post #27907 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Hmm. Interesting. I'll see how it turns out if/when I try YPAO for the first time in my room.
Thought you were getting a Trinnov? How else you going to incorporate all 108 of your speakers?

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post #27908 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:24 PM
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Naww. I still live on planet Earth. No Trinnov for meez.


Will have to suffice with just 98 speakers for the time being.
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post #27909 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:46 PM
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The DIRAC on an external DSP, that will probably not support the Dolby Enabled speakers, right? So that is just an option for ceiling speaker setups.
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post #27910 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
I am currently running a Denon X4000 and was impressed with XT32 when I upgraded. For current ATMOS I can get the Denon X5200 or the Onkyo 3030 for about $20 difference. I know the Onkyo lacks the XT32, but has HDMI2.0 and HDCP2.2. I don't think either model is getting DTS:X. I know new models will be coming out soon, nothing major announced on Blu Ray titles that I know of for either, but I hear everybody likes DSU.
Just hold off a little while longer and get one with DTS:X. The smarter move IMHO.

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post #27911 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
The DIRAC on an external DSP, that will probably not support the Dolby Enabled speakers, right?
Right, the equalization will try to undo the Dolby Elevation (HRTF) curve built into the upfiring speakers.

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post #27912 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:54 PM
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I need to find a 7.1 youtube video to fully test my setup
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post #27913 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:59 PM
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Can Youtube even do multichannel audio?

There are a bunch of actual test discs out there that would be better than Youtube!

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post #27914 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:59 PM
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Just hold off a little while longer and get one with DTS:X. The smarter move IMHO.
Agreed. All that gear is out now or just barely coming out.

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Right, the equalization will try to undo the Dolby Elevation (HRTF) curve built into the upfiring speakers.
I guess you'd have to "build in" that Elevation notch into the DIRAC target curve to make sure it doesn't get undone.
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post #27915 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 04:59 PM
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What's the story on Vudu? I know the Dolby demos are supposed to be streaming in Atmos. Is anything else? The post the other day about Mad Max indicated Vudu wasn't streaming it in Atmos.
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post #27916 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 05:24 PM
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Vudu is streaming Mad Max in DD+ 5.1

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post #27917 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Personally, I would wait for a newer model. You have an excellent receiver right now so you aren't in a massive rush to upgrade. Hang tight, the new models with the whole shebang are only a few months away!

Also be aware that although the Onkyo does sport HDCP2.2 they have the lesser version of HDMI2.0 that has reduced bandwidth, so it likely won't support HDR or wider color gamuts with future 4K content. ALL of last year's models are at least partially crippled in some way with respect to being fully "future proof" for 4K/UHD content. Waiting gets you the full implementation of HDMI2.0a/HDCP2.2 and DTS:X support to boot.

For the time being, you can run a 9ch setup with Front Height speakers on the X4000, and then when you upgrade you just add Top Middle speakers and you are fully immersified.
Wow, I wasn't even thinking about my X4000 supporting 9 channels. What if i just went ahead and installed the 4 ATMOS, could I just run the front ATMOS speakers. How much would that mess with the sound.

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post #27918 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 05:29 PM
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I don't think you are going to find consensus. And a lot depends on the dispersion characteristics of the speaker.

Dolby white paper on Atmos states that very wide dispersion speakers should be aimed down, whereas narrower dispersion speakers should be angled towards you. THX found in their testing that in ceiling speakers pointed straight down work best in the sense of making it sound like stuff "above you". But THX has an explicit goal of trying to recreate the cinema experience at home (ie more diffuse surround arrays) and some would prefer the increased precision of speakers aimed at you at the expense of the diffuse feeling of "stuff up there".
I think this is why one of the first demo's I heard a my local high end store was using Mythos Gem XLs. They gave a wide dispersion and sounded great.

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post #27919 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LowellG View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Personally, I would wait for a newer model. You have an excellent receiver right now so you aren't in a massive rush to upgrade. Hang tight, the new models with the whole shebang are only a few months away!

Also be aware that although the Onkyo does sport HDCP2.2 they have the lesser version of HDMI2.0 that has reduced bandwidth, so it likely won't support HDR or wider color gamuts with future 4K content. ALL of last year's models are at least partially crippled in some way with respect to being fully "future proof" for 4K/UHD content. Waiting gets you the full implementation of HDMI2.0a/HDCP2.2 and DTS:X support to boot.

For the time being, you can run a 9ch setup with Front Height speakers on the X4000, and then when you upgrade you just add Top Middle speakers and you are fully immersified.
Wow, I wasn't even thinking about my X4000 supporting 9 channels. What if i just went ahead and installed the 4 ATMOS, could I just run the front ATMOS speakers. How much would that mess with the sound.
That's what I'm suggesting. The forward pair can be designated Front Height on the X4000 and then you can use your choice of Neo:X, DSX or PLIIz.
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post #27920 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 05:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post
The DIRAC on an external DSP, that will probably not support the Dolby Enabled speakers, right? So that is just an option for ceiling speaker setups.
Dirac will EQ only eight channels anyway...the four overhead Atmos ones you can use the receiver's or pre/pro's own EQ for that (YPAO or others).
...And manually, parametric EQ, which is better than Auto Audyssey. And only a manual EQ would do for the four overhead Atmos speakers.

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-13-2015 at 08:02 PM. Reason: typo
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post #27921 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 06:04 PM
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I thought that was the case in my Hobbit room too - but I located three cinema seats which were much less wide than my original pair, enabling me to accommodate 3 seats in not much more space then the other two had occupied. The 3 new seats cost me $3,000 so it wasn't a decision made lightly, but it was well worth it IMO. Just something to consider.

I used to do that too. It works. But it is just not the same as sitting dead center and having total symmetry. For years I argued against it and said that the calibration took care of it all but I was wrong and when I finally succumbed, I realised it within 2 minutes of listening.
While I'm sure that what you say is true, it's just not practical in my room, nor within my budget.

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post #27922 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 07:05 PM
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Good. Had you not set all to large you'd have a cascading bass rolloff effect and that would not be good.
Well, I should clarify one thing. I discovered that this receiver actually doesn't allow the ability to set the Surround channels (so my Top Rears) to Large. The only available options there are Small or None. I guess back in 2003 it was inconceivable that anyone would use full-range speakers in the surrounds.

As for cascading bass rolloff, is that really an issue? My Denon receiver has already set a 100Hz crossover on all the height channels, so nothing lower than that is getting to the Marantz anyway. It's only receiving frequencies over 100Hz, and shouldn't have any need to apply a rolloff.

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On the flipside, if you wanted a dedicated bass system for only your middle and rear heights, you could.
I actually do have an unused subwoofer and had thought about it, but then I'd have to worry about finding the right spot for it and standing waves and room modes and all that crap. I just went through a big problem with bass cancellation when I upgraded my front mains to towers and don't look forward to dealing with that sort of thing again. How much bass is really sent to the height channels anyway?

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Sweet! Glad to hear that you are getting some sweet panning effects. Now.. I don't mean to diminish what you're doing but you are getting that pretty much by pure luck. These panning effects while pleasant may not be repeatable with other features that have content that is meant to be in the rear height plane. Just sayin'. With the Atmos-EX method I will do it will keep effects locking to where they are supposed to be. Now I can choose whether or not to use full center extraction to keep things from "collapsing" into the middle pair but that is what Music mode and Stereo bypass are good for. I doubt it will be a huge problem but we will see.
On the point about "locking effects where they are supposed to be," keep in mind that a few of us (myself included) did testing to try to determine what the Atmos receiver does differently if you use Top Rear as opposed to Top Middle, and found that there isn't any effective audible difference. There's a ton of overlap in the ranges between these positions, so the receiver seems to send the same sound cues regardless of which setting you choose. Same with Front Height vs. Top Front.

I don't think that choosing Top Rear as your decoding position is necessarily more accurate than choosing Top Middle. And, as I said, human perception of sound directionality behind us is very poor. In my opinion, I prefer to prioritize Top Middle for the discrete decoding anchor position, and then let some ambience or the occasional directional effect bleed out to the Top Rears to fill out the soundstage. As opposed to anchoring the Top Rears and matrixing a Top Middle, which runs the possible risks of: 1) having little to no common audio that will sum between those speakers, or 2) having too much audio collapse to the middle.

If any of my channels are going to decode wrong, I'd rather it be the ones way behind me where I can't really tell anyway, than the speakers closest to my ears. You are fully entitled to feel differently, of course.

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Yes, you're correct. I use one PL2 receiver per side. One does the front and rear and makes a new center. One receiver per left and right. So two are required to do this. The point of my method was to retain the original soundfield while netting a nearly true center pair which is what I really wanted. Front to back pans will absolutely be robust using this method, no doubt.
Different ways to achieve similar goals. I look forward to hearing about your results.

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post #27923 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 07:24 PM
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That's what I'm suggesting. The forward pair can be designated Front Height on the X4000 and then you can use your choice of Neo:X, DSX or PLIIz.
Great, I have a new upgrade to pursue for my wife to roll her eyes at.

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post #27924 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 07:30 PM
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YPAO used to be Yamaha Parametric Acoustic Optimizer, but as more and more models changed (and/or mixed) with graphic EQ, now YPAO stands for Yamaha Professional Acoustic Optimizer.

Furthermore, the amount of EQ tweaks that needed to be done after YPAO (especially last year's 3040) is mind boggling. If I don't tweak it to the ngh degree, my clients all claim that the Uto EQ makes the sound tin y.

I truly have to thank Yamaha as I get lots of calibration jobs due to their not-so-good YPAO system
Yes that why I returned the 3040 and bought the Marants SR-7009 with XT32
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post #27925 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 07:34 PM
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Just hold off a little while longer and get one with DTS:X. The smarter move IMHO.
That's what I am doing I need an other AVR to replace my now defunct INTEGRA RDC-7 .

I am hoping CEDIA will have a few cool toys
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post #27926 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 07:40 PM
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Don't remember who it was but someone posted recently about wanting Def Tech overheads to match their 7.1 base setup. I just noticed that there is a pair of AW6500 for a nice price in the AVS classifieds which would be a great fit. C mount bracket like the Tannoys so easy to mount and aim any which way.
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post #27927 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 09:15 PM
 
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That's what I am doing I need an other AVR to replace my now defunct INTEGRA RDC-7 .

I am hoping CEDIA will have a few cool toys
Marantz AV7703?
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post #27928 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Dirac will EQ only eight channels anyway...the four overhead Atmos ones you can use the receiver's or pre/pro's own EQ for that (YPAO or others).
...And manually, parametric EQ, which is better than Auto Audyssey. And only a manual EQ would do for the four overhead Atmos speakers.
In theory that sounds like quite a good idea. Unfortunately, the main system doesn't allow you to have just the heights have Room EQ while the rest are run native (which in turn you'd use the 8ch MiniDSP for). It's all or nothing.

But if things worked like this, that would be a good idea.

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Well, I should clarify one thing. I discovered that this receiver actually doesn't allow the ability to set the Surround channels (so my Top Rears) to Large. The only available options there are Small or None. I guess back in 2003 it was inconceivable that anyone would use full-range speakers in the surrounds.

As for cascading bass rolloff, is that really an issue? My Denon receiver has already set a 100Hz crossover on all the height channels, so nothing lower than that is getting to the Marantz anyway. It's only receiving frequencies over 100Hz, and shouldn't have any need to apply a rolloff.



I actually do have an unused subwoofer and had thought about it, but then I'd have to worry about finding the right spot for it and standing waves and nodes and all that crap. I just went through a big problem with bass cancellation when I upgraded my front mains to towers and don't look forward to dealing with that sort of thing again. How much bass is really sent to the height channels anyway?



On the point about "locking effects where they are supposed to be," keep in mind that a few of us (myself included) did testing to try to determine what the Atmos receiver does differently if you use Top Rear as opposed to Top Middle, and found that there isn't any effective audible difference. There's a ton of overlap in the ranges between these positions, so the receiver seems to send the same sound cues regardless of which setting you choose. Same with Front Height vs. Top Front.

I don't think that choosing Top Rear as your decoding position is necessarily more accurate than choosing Top Middle. And, as I said, human perception of sound directionality behind us is very poor. In my opinion, I prefer to prioritize Top Middle for the discrete decoding anchor position, and then let some ambience or the occasional directional effect bleed out to the Top Rears to fill out the soundstage. As opposed to anchoring the Top Rears and matrixing a Top Middle, which runs the possible risks of: 1) having little to no common audio that will sum between those speakers, or 2) having too much audio collapse to the middle.

If any of my channels are going to decode wrong, I'd rather it be the ones way behind me where I can't really tell anyway, than the speakers closest to my ears. You are fully entitled to feel differently, of course.



Different ways to achieve similar goals. I look forward to hearing about your results.
Different ways, for sure. It's only with us experimenting with these methods that we find if they work or not or have any appreciable benefit. It's often mentioned "there is no pressure for these >7.1.4 products". Let's show them that there is. Definitely keep posting about your room and re-watch many movies and music and let us know how you like it.
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post #27929 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 09:36 PM
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Vudu is streaming Mad Max in DD+ 5.1
Interesting. I wonder if once it has come out to home video if the Vudu stream will be upgraded to 7.1 DD+ sound.
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post #27930 of 46749 Old 08-13-2015, 10:11 PM
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That's what I am doing I need an other AVR to replace my now defunct INTEGRA RDC-7 .

I am hoping CEDIA will have a few cool toys
Anthem MRX 1120. For the love of all things holy I hope this is out by Christmas. I just can't take it anymore!
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