AccuEQ Vs Audyssey - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
To all involved... actually there is a difference between decoding HDMA/TrueHD content on the player and on the receiver. The difference is metadata. The metadata, such as DialogNorm (and some other) is not passed with PCM stream. Unfortunately. The lack of metatada means the lack of necessary processing. And this makes an audible difference (just the DialogNorm makes most of the movie records quieter by 4dB, also changes the way how DynamicEQ/Volume works).
Thank you for your cooperation, Igor. ...That is very good to know.
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post #332 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 07:15 PM
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Onkyo has been going downhill
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post #333 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 07:23 PM
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Onkyo has been going downhill
they do need to clean up the reliability.......its really put a black eye on their products



Warren

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post #334 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 08:08 PM
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Audyssey vs ARC?
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post #335 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 08:13 PM
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What would be more fair is Audyssey MultEQ Pro vs ARC v.2

Because ARC provides manual adjustments, not Audyssey. ...With Audyssey we are slaves. ...ARC allows freedom.
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post #336 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I wonder...if the 818 is upgradeable to get Dolby Atmos...

NO
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post #337 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
To all involved... actually there is a difference between decoding HDMA/TrueHD content on the player and on the receiver. The difference is metadata. The metadata, such as DialogNorm (and some other) is not passed with PCM stream. Unfortunately. The lack of metatada means the lack of necessary processing. And this makes an audible difference (just the DialogNorm makes most of the movie records quieter by 4dB, also changes the way how DynamicEQ/Volume works).

Very good info. Thank you.
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post #338 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
NO
TY
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post #339 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
I realized you weren't the OP of this thread and was referring to what you acknowledged above and sharing what some could consider an embarrassing anecdote on what I believe. Seriously, enjoy your system and I agree with the poster who suggested following some of Sanjay's posts because he REALLY is knowledgeable on these matters for those that wish to learn about the subject....

Insofar as Keith is concerned--If you go to the Audssey Owners Thread you will see that he REALLY is an expert on this subject. Fwiw, my point in rejoining this thread was because I thought some folks were mistaking what you believe verses what they have been contributing scientifically to this discussion. GOOD LUCK and I am out.

What???

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post #340 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Yes, and their latest Advanced one from their Elite Series is their best yet.

* MCACC by the way.

Right...MCACC is what I was thinking of...

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post #341 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
My post did address your question..
Your test setup conditions are incomplete...
I can't give a yes or no, until U confirm what DSP surround mode the AVR is set to.
Without a selected surround mode the bass manager is OFF.
Why don't U try it both ways and post back the results..


Just my $0.03...
Why are my test conditions incomplete? In any AVR/pre pro I know bass managment is never off unless the user switches it off (all speakers set to large). Doesn't matter if the input signal is (multichannel) PCM or an AC-3 bitstream, etc.

I've sent an AC-3 encoded bistream carrying pink noise in the left and right channel into my UMC-200 and measured the subwoofer output with a) surrounds set to small and b) surrounds set to off. Output level was exactly the same in both cases. As per your post it should be different, no?

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; 08-08-2014 at 01:42 AM.
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post #342 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The sound is identical no matter where it is decoded. It is always PCM that gets sent from your AVR - the only issue is where it is decoded. If you send a bitstream from your BD player to the AVR then the AVR decodes into PCM. If you decode in the BD player and send PCM to the AVR then the AVR just passes the PCM. Either way, the PCM is the PCM.

So, given that the result is identical, why would you "prefer" one over the other? To prefer something over another thing requires that they are different to each other. If they are identical, a preference for one over the other makes no sense.
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I absolutely understand what you are saying. But what is your preference based on? Why do you prefer one over the other? Given that they are identical, and you seem to accept that, how can you have a preference for one over the other?

Let's use a different example. Suppose I have a long Word document that has been compressed with ZIP. If I want to send it to you I can uncompress it here and send you the 'raw' Word document, or I can send the Zip file to you and you can uncompress it at your end. In either case the document is identical. So how can you "prefer" one over the other? It makes absolutely no difference where it is uncompressed.

It's the same with PCM.
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
To all involved... actually there is a difference between decoding HDMA/TrueHD content on the player and on the receiver. The difference is metadata. The metadata, such as DialogNorm (and some other) is not passed with PCM stream. Unfortunately. The lack of metatada means the lack of necessary processing. And this makes an audible difference (just the DialogNorm makes most of the movie records quieter by 4dB, also changes the way how DynamicEQ/Volume works).
Igor has brought up a good point here Keith, and I just wanted some iteration, physical evidence, factoids, data, to support the proper emphasis to it. ...Nothing more nothing less.

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-09-2014 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Up
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post #343 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Right...MCACC is what I was thinking of...
With Phase Control and Advanced Sound Retriever (ASR) ...for 2ch.
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post #344 of 1007 Old 08-07-2014, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I am the original poster of this thread but I've had little input as it did get side tracked!
It was an interesting subject, but one can find very little on the subject in this thread.
It would be nice if some could stay on track so those that do want to learn, can.


Keith and Sanjay are experts in the field of audio.
I for one respect them 100% for their years of support and contribution to helping hundreds on this forum.
Its a real shame that some just don't want to learn from those that really know their stuff.


When we work together in harmony in places like this its a real pleasure.
We don't have to agree with everyone, but respect for those that do know their stuff goes a long way....
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post #345 of 1007 Old 08-08-2014, 12:31 AM
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post #346 of 1007 Old 08-08-2014, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
I am the original poster of this thread but I've had little input as it did get side tracked!
It was an interesting subject, but one can find very little on the subject in this thread.
It would be nice if some could stay on track so those that do want to learn, can.


Keith and Sanjay are experts in the field of audio.
I for one respect them 100% for their years of support and contribution to helping hundreds on this forum.
Its a real shame that some just don't want to learn from those that really know their stuff.


When we work together in harmony in places like this its a real pleasure.
We don't have to agree with everyone, but respect for those that do know their stuff goes a long way....
+1

could we all move on please
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post #347 of 1007 Old 08-08-2014, 03:31 AM
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My theater chairs are leather and I do not have a mic stand - but I persevered! I have a snare drum stand...I put the mic on the center of the stand and ensured the arms were retracted and pulled away from it. Best I could do, but far, FAR, superior to simply not calibrating via XT32!
Yes, that is the point I was unable to get across. It may not be ideal but it is still, better than not doing it at all, so long as some simple precautions are taken and some understanding of what one is doing, and why, is applied. Simply following, blindly and slavishly, a mantra that dictates "if you cannot do it the ideal way, then don't do it at all" is counterproductive to achieving good results.

Last edited by kbarnes701; 08-08-2014 at 03:52 AM.
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post #348 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Wow wee..
This thread is taking all types of twist & turns..
My turn to add some more twists.

Quote:
But whenever possible I would recommend to the listener to audition an home theater system that uses full-range loudspeakers rather than the widely used subwoofer/satellite system. The sonic gains achieved bypassing the DSP's bass manager are very audible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Another major advantage for bypassing the bass manager is the the DSP processor now has more available headroom, by not having to do the various X-overs for frequencies /slopes plus the bass redirection/mixing. Note that having the subwoofers only handling the LFE track, the entire frequency spectrum delivered by the complete HT system is fuller and crisper with tite bass.
I am not doubting you hear a difference, but how can you be certain these sonic differences are due to the DSP? A high-pass filter requires no more headroom than a wideband signal.

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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
The energy from the LFE track is much deeper in frequency than the bass frequencies from the other, normal channels. The pertinent point missed by many users is that frequency spectrum starts with the LFE, steps to the bass frequencies and then upward. If the LFE levels are mismatched the entire HT system will never deliver sonically up to its performance potential.
The actual bass range in the main channels vs the LFE may vary significantly across soundtracks. There is no structural reason that the main channels cannot carry bass just as deep, or deeper, than the LFE channel. I suspect they are quite similar in many movies. But no matter. For purposes of surround system design, we have to assume all channels extend to 20 Hz, assuming we want to hear everything in the entire soundtrack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Following this logic the more satellites we cross-over to the subwoofer(s) the higher the electrical sum will be and at one point (say in a 11.x system) the sub(s) will inevitably start to clip. Is my understanding correct or I'm at a loss here?
Whether a sub will clip is a separate matter, but the total bass levels could indeed increase if all 11 channels are packed with bass. There are ways to avoid unwanted bass buildup with some special bass management techniques, but I have not seen that in processors yet.


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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
That why I posted previously the feature that certain higher end AVRs and processors have is the LFE trim control. How the bass manager functions is often misunderstood, but since we work directly with Dolby & DTS as a support link with the DSP suppliers we have some experience here..
The reason for LFE trim has nothing to do with redirected bass, but because in the early days of 5.1 music, there were different level calibrations used for the LFE channel. Between DVD-A, DTS-CD, and SACD, there were 3 different calibrations used, and inconsistently to boot! The bass in the main channels was consistent (as consistent as the CD mix FWIW), so the solution was to let users trim the LFE to "correct" it as much as one could guesstimate.

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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Dolby has provided the bass management standards for the last 15 years, and DTS just adopts them.
Actually, I wrote that manual 20 years ago, but who’s counting?

Quote:
There are (3) basic loudspeaker configurations that are tested, these are:
1. Configuration #1
All speakers are Small.
Regarding bass attenuation as I mentioned previously the amount of bass attenuation for the redirected low frequencies (not LFE) varies depending upon the # of speakers set to Small. 1 speaker has 0dB attenuation, 2 speakers has 4.5dB attenuation, 3 speakers has 7.2 dB attenuation, 4 speakers has 9.0 dB attenuation, and 5 speakers has 10,5 dB attenuation. Subwoofer required.
Those attenuations have nothing to do with how many speakers are set to small. Only with how many bass reproducers are sharing the same bass signal -- redirected or LFE. Can be multiple subs, or can be full range speakers.

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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
So if I would send a signal to L with the fronts set to small and switch surrounds on/off then I should see differing levels at the subwoofer output?
Noop. Nada.
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Last edited by Roger Dressler; 08-09-2014 at 01:47 AM.
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post #349 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 01:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Noop. Nada.
That's what I've thought hence my question where in the signal flow he is measuring. Where did he get his numbers from?

Markus

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post #350 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
That's what I've thought hence my question where in the signal flow he is measuring. Where did he get his numbers from?
The attenuation numbers were quoted correctly from the manual. But the interpretation of how they apply in the system was incorrect.
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post #351 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The attenuation numbers were quoted correctly from the manual. But the interpretation of how they apply in the system was incorrect.
So these numbers are measured somewhere within the Dolby bass manager before any makeup gain is applied?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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post #352 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
The attenuation numbers were quoted correctly from the manual. But the interpretation of how they apply in the system was incorrect.
I do hope that this misinterpretation isn’t the reason for this ...

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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
However we do about 8-10 installs a month, and the majority of our customers prefer their systems with the EQ off.
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post #353 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
So these numbers are measured somewhere within the Dolby bass manager before any makeup gain is applied?
These are simply gain offsets in the "subwoofer" signal path, regardless of whether the path is internal (bass redirection to 2 or more "large" speakers) or external (2 or more subwoofer outputs).
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post #354 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Whether a sub will clip is a separate matter, but the total bass levels could indeed increase if all 11 channels are packed with bass[?]. There are ways to avoid unwanted bass buildup with some special bass management techniques, but I have not seen that in processors yet.
Should we be concerned somehow, Roger?

Quote:
The reason for LFE trim has nothing to do with redirected bass, but because in the early days of 5.1 music, there were different level calibrations used for the LFE channel. Between DVD-A, DTS-CD, and SACD, there were 3 different calibrations used, and inconsistently to boot! The bass in the main channels was consistent (as consistent as the CD mix FWIW), so the solution was to let users trim the LFE to "correct" it as much as one could guesstimate.
"Guesstimate" - The Magic word, because in many products the LFE Level Settings from DD, DTS and Multich PCM sources vary; and minus infinity dB, -20dB, -10dB, and 0dB are not sufficient enough to compensate for all the level variations from the LFE channel level.
It should be in 1dB steps (or in 0.5dB granularity), and from -20dB to +20dB range. Onkyo is the one with those settings above (underlined).
- Those settings are for: DD, DTS, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, DSD, and Multich PCM.

And there is another setting: Subwoofer Input Sensitivity. ...For the Multich Sub jack, analog.
For the various sub output levels from SACD, DVD Audio, DD, DTS. ...In DVD, BD, Universal players.

Quote:
Actually, I wrote that manual 20 years ago, but who’s counting?
If you could re-write it, would you change anything?

Last edited by NorthSky; 08-09-2014 at 03:55 PM. Reason: [/U] & 'concerned' (with "ed" @ the end)
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post #355 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Yes, that is the point I was unable to get across. It may not be ideal but it is still, better than not doing it at all, so long as some simple precautions are taken and some understanding of what one is doing, and why, is applied. Simply following, blindly and slavishly, a mantra that dictates "if you cannot do it the ideal way, then don't do it at all" is counterproductive to achieving good results.


It's not that coldhearted in intention with regard to my feelings; but I do disagree with the end of the bolded statement. It's not counterproductive for some of us to feel and suggest to others that by not doing it the "ideal way" it could lead to horrible inaccuracies and that the system would be better served by attempting a manual calibration.


Aside from some technical compromises -- perhaps -- with regard to surround information arriving at two-tenths-of-a-second shorter or longer time due to the space domain Audyssey and other programs take into account, a receiver or processor owner should become familiar with his or her system to the point they know how to select crossovers, measure distances and, with some assistance, set channel trim levels. Also, while some systems like Audyssey are supposed to also check your speaker wire polarity, one should definitely get this right as a rudimentary beginner's element because it's really a building block of all audio; that is, making sure the "hot" leads are connected to the "hot/positive" terminals and the "ground" leads are connected to the "low/negative" terminals (regardless of whether the wire is stripped bare and twisted or connected to banana leads and such).

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post #356 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
These are simply gain offsets in the "subwoofer" signal path, regardless of whether the path is internal (bass redirection to 2 or more "large" speakers) or external (2 or more subwoofer outputs).
Sorry, doesn't compute. Could you post a diagram that shows signal flow and where those gain offsets would get applied?

Markus

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post #357 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Should we be concern somehow, Roger?
I'm not concerned, but I hope that bass management takes it into account. Perhaps Atmos has that figured out. Will have to see.

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"Guesstimate" - The Magic word, because in many products the LFE Level Settings from DD, DTS and Multich PCM sources vary; and minus infinity dB, -20dB, -10dB, and 0dB are not sufficient enough to compensate for all the level variations from the LFE channel level.
It should be in 1dB steps (or in 0.5dB granularity), and from -20dB to +20dB range. Onkyo is the one with those settings above (underlined).
I totally agree it would be great to have 0 to -20 dB in at least 1 dB steps. No need for boost IMHO.

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If you could re-write it, would you change anything?
I would recommend LFE trim be part of the program. But the real solution would have been for all the non-film content makers to use the already established standards for LFE and subwoofer calibration, rather than cooking up their own. It brought zero benefit, and lots of harm, to the 5.1 consumer.
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post #358 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
Sorry, doesn't compute. Could you post a diagram that shows signal flow and where those gain offsets would get applied?
This diagram shows how the bass is attenuated 4.5 dB when two speakers split the load. If there were only one speaker, it would be 0 dB.

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post #359 of 1007 Old 08-09-2014, 04:30 PM
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Yes, we can talk all we want about AccuEQ versus Audyssey, and Dolby Atmos too, but proper Bass Management in all our products is of prime importance in order for all those Auto Room Calibration and EQ systems to work optimally.

And Roger is abso!utely right; the sound mixing/recording engineers working for movie studios and multichannel music recording studios need to be more professional and abide by a set of audio standards when transferring their art into Blu-ray Video and Audio and Hybrid multichannel SACD for home. It varies so much from one product to the next, from one pro engineer to the next, from one medium format to the next, from one player to the next, from one recording/mixing machine to the next, and from one studio to the next that we end up paying a catastrophic listening experience price.

I don't think multichannel surround sound will be ever perfect. Perhaps Onkyo with Dolby Labs and AccuEQ and Dolby Atmos are into something new and improved; we'll just have to sit tight in that sweet spot, explore, experiment, listen, adjust, fine-tune, and be satisfy with whatever end results we "emmagasine" from. ...A guesstimate of our own personal preference because we cannot rely on people who don't follow the audio standards when it come to multichannel music from our various software music and movie mediums.

And AV receivers' and multichannel pre/pros' manufacturers got lost in all these non-standard variations.
Everybody has to work together here. At least Dolby Labs with their newborn baby Dolby Atmos for home is working closely with Onkyo on implementing their new AccuEQ Room Calibration system.

And who knows; AccuEQ might be much better than Audyssey overall and after all, perhaps except for only Audyssey MultEQ XT32 flavor with the Audyssey MultEQ Pro kit solution.

More to come in the next few weeks, months...
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post #360 of 1007 Old 08-10-2014, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
This diagram shows how the bass is attenuated 4.5 dB when two speakers split the load. If there were only one speaker, it would be 0 dB.
Thanks Roger, but why 4.5dB? Is this an empirical number?

Markus

"In science, contrary evidence causes one to question a theory. In religion, contrary evidence causes one to question the evidence." - Floyd Toole
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