AccuEQ Vs Audyssey - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
@SyntheticShrimp and @kbarnes701:

You guys are confusion MultEQ and DynamicEQ!!

1. MultEQ (any flavor) has the following settings:

- Audyssey target (with a downward slope in the HF region)
- Audyssey Flat (as the name says)
- Audyssey OFF

2. DynamicEQ has a flat response at 0 dB Master Volume setting and starts to compensate ear characteristics as MV goes down.

Check the Audyssey FAQ please!
No we are not.

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post #182 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
U are confusing bass from the full-range loudspeakers with the LFE track (.1) from the subwoofer, note when all loudspeakers are in full-range mode the subwoofer handles only the LFE...
However if the source material does not have an LFE track then yes certain sensitivity arises for the positioning of the subwoofers. But since we are failthful follower of Dr.Toole's multiple subwoofers (2) this helps immensely in controlling room node/resonance issues.
Bass is bass, regardless of it coming from LFE or being re-directed from satellites.

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Another major advantage for bypassing the bass manager is the the DSP processor now has more available headroom, by not having to do the various X-overs for frequencies /slopes plus the bass redirection/mixing. Note that having the subwoofers only handling the LFE track, the entire frequency spectrum delivered by the complete HT system is fuller and crisper with tite bass. The crucial factor is the optimizing of the various output levels for each channel for the proper voicing and soundstage.
This is like saying: let's take the engine out of the car, that way we can save weight resulting in lower fuel consumption. Then, what is the engine for? (Read: DSP processor.)
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post #183 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
No we are not.
You two are talking about two different things.
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post #184 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
You two are talking about two different things.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I believe you are the one who's confused. I think both of us are quite clear on the distinction between MultEQ, DynamicEQ, and how they relate to this discussion.
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post #185 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
At movie reference level, the correct target curve IS flat and, of course, as Audyssey has measured the in-room response, the influence of the room has been taken into account. But most people listen at levels below reference of course (105dB peak, 115dB peak LFE) which is where Dynamic EQ can be useful and its use does result in a curve more like the one you mention, which is the usually preferred one. And then again, a lot of people apply some bass boost after running Audyssey, to their preference, or even add some PEQ to ice the cake even more.
@shrimp : Looking at the bolded parts is where the contradiction is. Audyssey target curve (the one that slopes in the HF region) will slope and Audyssey Flat will remain flat not only at movie reference level (aka 0 dB MV setting), but at any lower volume setting coz it's independent of DEQ. Right?
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post #186 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Bass is bass, regardless of it coming from LFE or being re-directed from satellites.
Totally disagree...
Bass signals from multiple channels may add together electrically somewhat differently than they would combine acoustically. For example, 2 identical bass signals will electrically sum to a 6dB stronger signal. Acoustically they may only result in a 4.5 dB gain stronger signal or less. This difference can compound when several are combined into a single subwoofer output. If U consider a 1 channel signal based upon 1 satellite speaker and 1 subwoofer, it is possible to set the subwoofer level to blend with the satellite's speaker output level exactly. This will result in the same frequency response balance as a conventional full-range speaker. However if the system adds another satellite speaker for stereo but uses the same subwoofer driven from both channels, the electrical bass summation will increase the output by as much as 6 dB...

And when multi-channel audio is reproduced the same electrical bass buildup can occur and lead to bass levels that are over-emphasized by up to >3dB. This means that the user may need to use a different subwoofer gain setting to obtain a pleasing frequency balance. Also keep in mind that movie soundtracks create and use bass effects in totally different ways from music recordings which further requires the need for the user to tailor the subwoofer levels. Thats precisely why certain high end processors actually provide an LFE trim control besides a subwoofer level control.

The energy from the LFE track is much deeper in frequency than the bass frequencies from the other, normal channels. The pertinent point missed by many users is that frequency spectrum starts with the LFE, steps to the bass frequencies and then upward. If the LFE levels are mismatched the entire HT system will never deliver sonically up to its performance potential.

Just my $0.03...
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post #187 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Bass signals from multiple channels may add together electrically somewhat differently than they would combine acoustically. For example, 2 identical bass signals will electrically sum to a 6dB stronger signal. Acoustically they may only result in a 4.5 dB gain stronger signal or less. This difference can compound when several are combined into a single subwoofer output.
Following this logic the more satellites we cross-over to the subwoofer(s) the higher the electrical sum will be and at one point (say in a 11.x system) the sub(s) will inevitably start to clip. Is my understanding correct or I'm at a loss here?
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post #188 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
@shrimp : Looking at the bolded parts is where the contradiction is. Audyssey target curve (the one that slopes in the HF region) will slope and Audyssey Flat will remain flat not only at movie reference level (aka 0 dB MV setting), but at any lower volume setting coz it's independent of DEQ. Right?
The target curve remains the same, but our perception of it changes with volume. DynamicEQ attempts to remove that discrepancy, so the perceived balance is the same as it is at reference, which, if MultEQ has been implemented, will be flat or rolled off at high frequencies.

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post #189 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
The target curve remains the same, but our perception of it changes with volume. DynamicEQ attempts to remove that discrepancy, so the perceived balance is the same as it is at reference, which, if MultEQ has been implemented, will be flat or rolled off at high frequencies.
Absolutely agree. But this is not what the previous poster was saying, eh?

DEQ does not change MultEQ's curves (target or flat) but the DEQ curves are superimposed on MultEQ curves.

Last edited by mogorf; 08-06-2014 at 02:26 PM.
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post #190 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Absolutely agree. But this is not what the previous poster was saying, eh?
I think it is, more or less. But implicit is the assumption that a gently sloping curve is only desirable at lower listening levels, which I believe is where he and I disagree. He can speak for himself, though.

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post #191 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
I think it is, more or less. But implicit is the assumption that a gently sloping curve is only desirable at lower listening levels, which I believe is where he and I disagree. He can speak for himself, though.
As we know Audyssey MultEQ's target curve introduces a slight roll-off in the HF region with the aim to restore the balance between direct and reflected sound. And as such it is not level dependent.
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post #192 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
@SyntheticShrimp and @kbarnes701:

You guys are confusion MultEQ and DynamicEQ!!

1. MultEQ (any flavor) has the following settings:

- Audyssey target (with a downward slope in the HF region)
- Audyssey Flat (as the name says)
- Audyssey OFF

2. DynamicEQ has a flat response at 0 dB Master Volume setting and starts to compensate ear characteristics as MV goes down.

Check the Audyssey FAQ please!
No confusion. Shrimp and I were discussing a form of Harman curve, which slopes from the LF to the HF. Audyssey curve doesn't do that - the very small slope you mention is right at the end of the HF region.

Here's the FAQ answer with the exact info on the slope:

a)7. What are the Audyssey 'Movie' ('Reference') and 'Music' ('Flat') curves?

I agree the Audyssey target curve isn't perfectly 'flat' but for the purposes of the discussion we were having, it is an adequate description.
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post #193 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
No we are not.
Quite. Maybe he didn’t see the whole context of our discussion.
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post #194 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SyntheticShrimp View Post
I think it is, more or less. But implicit is the assumption that a gently sloping curve is only desirable at lower listening levels, which I believe is where he and I disagree. He can speak for himself, though.
You and I are completely clear on what we were discussing. We are pretty much in agreement, with the minor differences we have already covered.
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post #195 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
U are confusing bass from the full-range loudspeakers with the LFE track (.1) from the subwoofer, note when all loudspeakers are in full-range mode the subwoofer handles only the LFE...
However if the source material does not have an LFE track then yes certain sensitivity arises for the positioning of the subwoofers. But since we are failthful follower of Dr.Toole's multiple subwoofers (2) this helps immensely in controlling room node/resonance issues.

Another major advantage for bypassing the bass manager is the the DSP processor now has more available headroom, by not having to do the various X-overs for frequencies /slopes plus the bass redirection/mixing. Note that having the subwoofers only handling the LFE track, the entire frequency spectrum delivered by the complete HT system is fuller and crisper with tite bass. The crucial factor is the optimizing of the various output levels for each channel for the proper voicing and soundstage.

Just my $0.03...
No, I wasn't even mentioning LFE. I was discussing bass. If the subwoofers are effectively inside the main speakers, then obviously they have to be positioned where the main speakers are, which is rarely the optimum place in the room wrt to modes. I don't understand your comment about multiple subwoofers - if the bass is handled by the 'full range' speakers, where do subwoofers come into it?

I am not discussing LFE but redirected bass. Proper subs can be properly positioned anywhere in the room where they can work optimally with the room. Also, almost no 'full range' speakers can handle bass down to 20Hz, at anything like movie reference level, whereas purpose designed subs are able to take that in their stride.

Nowadays there is really no good reason that I can see to use anything other than a satellite/sub system. Let the man speakers handle what they do well - down to about 80Hz is an easy ask, and let the subs do what they do well. Spend some time optimising the splice and it's a win-win all round.

This also relieves huge pressure from the amps and the mains too, giving an additional benefit.
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post #196 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
No confusion. Shrimp and I were discussing a form of Harman curve
Were you? In that case I must have missed the topic, sorry. But a search on this page with the key-word "Harman" showed no results in your previous posts.

Quote:
Audyssey curve doesn't do that - the very small slope you mention is right at the end of the HF region.
Actually, the Audyssey target curve is flat to 4 kHz, has a slight roll-off from 4kHz - 10 kHz (-2dB @ 10 kHz), and another additional roll-off from 10 kHz - 20 kHz (-6dB @ 20 kHz).

I wouldn't call 4 kHz the end of the HF region.

Quote:
Here's the FAQ answer with the exact info on the slope:

a)7. What are the Audyssey 'Movie' ('Reference') and 'Music' ('Flat') curves?
Yeah, thanks, I just copied/pasted the above target curve info from the FAQ!!

Quote:
I agree the Audyssey target curve isn't perfectly 'flat' but for the purposes of the discussion we were having, it is an adequate description.
Why should the Audyssey target curve be perfectly flat when it is the curve that has "Da Slope" as described in the FAQ compiled by a poster named kbarnes701? On the otherhand, it IS the Audyssey Flat curve that is supposed to be flat, isn't it?
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post #197 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Following this logic the more satellites we cross-over to the subwoofer(s) the higher the electrical sum will be and at one point (say in a 11.x system) the sub(s) will inevitably start to clip. Is my understanding correct or I'm at a loss here?
Thats why Dolby designed/built into the bass manager a 10dB attenuation for the subwoofer for the redirected bass frequencies for all channels set to Small..
But what complicates the system is when the redirected summed bass is mixed with the LFE...
That why I posted previously the feature that certain higher end AVRs and processors have is the LFE trim control. How the bass manager functions is often misunderstood, but since we work directly with Dolby & DTS as a support link with the DSP suppliers we have some experience here..

Just my $0.03...
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post #198 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Thats why Dolby designed/built into the bass manager a 10dB attenuation for the subwoofer for the redirected bass frequencies for all channels set to Small..
Hate to say this, but that 10 dB is a boost (not an attenuation) and is for the LFE signal only, no effect on the re-directed bass.

Quote:
But what complicates the system is when the redirected summed bass is mixed with the LFE...
That why I posted previously the feature that certain higher end AVRs and processors have is the LFE trim control.
How does an LFE trim control take care of re-directed bass? LFE and re-directed bass are two different signals coming from different paths until they reach the "summing" section of the AVR.

Quote:
How the bass manager functions is often misunderstood, but since we work directly with Dolby & DTS as a support link with the DSP suppliers we have some experience here...
Good to know...
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post #199 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
No, I wasn't even mentioning LFE. I was discussing bass. If the subwoofers are effectively inside the main speakers, then obviously they have to be positioned where the main speakers are, which is rarely the optimum place in the room wrt to modes. I don't understand your comment about multiple subwoofers - if the bass is handled by the 'full range' speakers, where do subwoofers come into it?

I am not discussing LFE but redirected bass. Proper subs can be properly positioned anywhere in the room where they can work optimally with the room. Also, almost no 'full range' speakers can handle bass down to 20Hz, at anything like movie reference level, whereas purpose designed subs are able to take that in their stride.

Nowadays there is really no good reason that I can see to use anything other than a satellite/sub system. Let the man speakers handle what they do well - down to about 80Hz is an easy ask, and let the subs do what they do well. Spend some time optimising the splice and it's a win-win all round.

This also relieves huge pressure from the amps and the mains too, giving an additional benefit.
My post was a response to mogorf not U..
Your general statement that subwoofers can be placed anywhere in the room is totally bogus..
Subwoofer placement is crucial thats why before we do an install, firstly we do a complete sweep of the room to find out about its acoustic footprint. Many room nodes/resonances can be minmized with simply smart positioning of the subwoofer...
But as I posted previously, we strongly recommend using (2) subwoofers as this significantly helps the situation..

In certain extreme cases, some EQ may be required....
However we do about 8-10 installs a month, and the majority of our customers prefer their systems with the EQ off. We have found using quality loudspeakers and intelligent positioning of these, that most of the acoustic issues are minimized and no EQ is required. The sonic performance of a well setup system can be incredible and eye-opening to many, I think too many users have simply accepted that compressed streams are the norm and sound good...

Just my $0.03...
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post #200 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Hate to say this, but that 10 dB is a boost (not an attenuation) and is for the LFE signal only, no effect on the re-directed bass.

Duh.....
Then I guess the Dolby Digital License Manual Issue 5, page 4-54 must be an error...
Because that is a direct quote..

Next question..

Just my $0.03...
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post #201 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:07 PM
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I am in a lurking mode (invisible) but I am reading everything in this thread; mostly quite interesting.

* No Auto Room EQ is perfect (some are even detrimental), and one that you have manual control over (PEQ) is more often than not beneficially superior, when used properly. IMO
- It's the same with people; nobody's perfect, we all learn to EQ ourselves properly, in the right context of the matter.

BTW, IntelliVolume is an audiophile. ...Just like people having a multi-expensive sound system, without digital equalization.
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post #202 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Duh.....
Then I guess the Dolby Digital License Manual Issue 5, page 4-54 must be an error...
Because that is a direct quote..

Next question..

Just my $0.03...
M Code, ...since when is Dolby (or DTS) taking care of Bass Management? It is a feature of AVRs, not Dolby!

For ref., care to copy/paste what you have found in that Dolby Licence Manual?
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post #203 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 67jason View Post
im sorry i dont agree with that quote one bit. audyssey address the room - helps to lessen the impact the room has on the whole. i can truthfully state the the "sound signature" or "voice" of my speakers does not change with audyssey on vs it being off.

Okay; I wasn't saying YOU or anyone else had to agree with it...just clipped it and shared it to show there were others who had this viewpoint about it...

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post #204 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
As Chris said, reflections won't interfere with distance calibrations. So it comes down to possible interference when calibrating levels and frequency response. IF putting the mic on the headrest of a couch will give inaccurate results for either of those, then what is your alternative for calibrating levels and frequency response? This isn't a question of "ideal", but which alternative works better: your approach (manual calibration) or an Audyssey cal (even if it's not ideal). I ask because you've brought that up more than once in this thread:

Again: Using the back-of-couch method of placing the mic is not preferable to doing "nothing at all."

Quote:
Which is why I asked:
And what method of manual calibration do you use for levels, distances and frequency response?

IN MY ROOM I am not CONCERNED with FREQUENCY RESPONSE...my levels and distances were adjusted by tape measure and ear/SPL meter. I'm NOT trying to ram this method of speaker/system adjustment down anyone's proverbial throat (like it seems many here are with regard to their beliefs), I am merely saying placing the mic on the back of the couch is NOT the right way of doing the auto calibration and thus I prefer to set it up WITHOUT the mic because I DON'T have a stand/pod.


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Because AVS has an ignore function (makes it easier, less cluttered, when going through threads).

What is so wrong about NorthSky that you needed to put him on ignore? You want to know so much about me, personally, and why I won't succumb to your demands of needing to know why I don't prefer PCM transmissions as compared to bitstreaming, yes? So, what's so wrong about Mr. Lord of the Rings?

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post #205 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:47 PM
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That was a very long time ago, when the stars were pointing East, up in the night of the sky.

Oh no Bob...you're losing me yet again...

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post #206 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
That many! ...Was it Onkyo? ...You have a link with accurate posts?



No, only the Audyssey 'pyramid' shaped mics, and only from some Onkyo receivers/SSPs models.
But it was way overblown; many models actually end up as having the proper mics inside their boxes.

* The Onkyo's own 'black puck' shaped mic doesn't have the proper shape; the small mic is surrounded by a base too wide in its periphery. ...That was from the x05 Series (including your 605). This causes the mic condenser to record the reflections from its surrounded plastic surface. And you cannot substitute it for the Audyssey's own mic as they were calibrated differently.
Denon adopted the Audyssey 'pyramid' style mic right from the very beginning, so no problem there.

** Denon before that, and Pioneer after that used a similar puck shaped mic; cheap mics, not the best to get the best measurement results. Anthem is using a better mic, with a stand that is provided with their receivers and SSPs.

Anyway, Audyssey is still using the 'pyramid' shaped mic, and Onkyo/Integra is using the ......... shaped mic with AccuEQ.

We all would love to have a titanium made mic but perhaps in another lifeform from another multiverse...

Jesus Christ on a Cracker...


So, on top of all the other incomprehensible factors that have led me to believe using Audyssey on my 605 is NOT the correct thing to do -- it doesn't apply processing to high-resolution audio codecs, it doesn't EQ the sub, it has a tendency to constantly error AND that I don't have a mic stand/tripod -- you're saying that the puck-style mics such as the one supplied in the box with the 605 are basically OUT OF SPEC and can't be trusted?


I know the Anthem mics are top shelf; they even include the stand for the end user...NICE touch...

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post #207 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:54 PM
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Just out of interest, why not? Why do you care so much where the codec is unpacked?

I know this is going to open up a WHOLE inevitable can of ridiculous, asinine and scientifically-bolstered can of friggin' worms, but I just PREFER that my SOURCE send a signal and my AVR decode it; call it liking to look at the "DTS-HD MSTR" light on the front of the receiver or the fact that I would rather bass management be handled at the AVR (well, I'm not using analog outs from the player so I suppose this is moot) but I don't want to send PCM signals from the OPPO (I went over this in a previous post with regard to my previous Panasonic first generation DMP-BD10A and the way it didn't support bitstreamed transport of the high resolution codecs).

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post #208 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:56 PM
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we can go no further with this particular discussion. Enjoy your music and movies!

I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything; but I shall continue enjoying music and films in my environment without equalization seeping its way into the mix (no pun intended), possibly mucking up the actual SOUND of my speakers. Thanks!

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post #209 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:57 PM
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The sound is identical no matter where it is decoded. It is always PCM that gets sent from your AVR - the only issue is where it is decoded. If you send a bitstream from your BD player to the AVR then the AVR decodes into PCM. If you decode in the BD player and send PCM to the AVR then the AVR just passes the PCM. Either way, the PCM is the PCM.

So, given that the result is identical, why would you "prefer" one over the other? To prefer something over another thing requires that they are different to each other. If they are identical, a preference for one over the other makes no sense.

I thought you clearly stated WE CAN GO NO FURTHER with this discussion...

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post #210 of 1862 Old 08-06-2014, 05:58 PM
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I absolutely understand what you are saying. But what is your preference based on? Why do you prefer one over the other? Given that they are identical, and you seem to accept that, how can you have a preference for one over the other?

Let's use a different example. Suppose I have a long Word document that has been compressed with ZIP. If I want to send it to you I can uncompress it here and send you the 'raw' Word document, or I can send the Zip file to you and you can uncompress it at your end. In either case the document is identical. So how can you "prefer" one over the other? It makes absolutely no difference where it is uncompressed.

It's the same with PCM.

I thought you said WE CAN GO NO FURTHER with this discussion...

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