AccuEQ Vs Audyssey - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 783 Old 08-06-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Ok, I know that you don't engage Audyssey. And it don't matter either because 2EQ does not EQ anything below 1kHz anyway.

This brings me to another question I had for you...


I know here you mentioned that I "don't engage Audyssey"...which had me thinking: We're always told that we should "stick with what Audyssey finds" at the end of a calibration/setup, and that includes crossovers -- but some say these crossovers SHOULD be changed after Audyssey runs because it's not Audyssey that is actually setting the crossover points, but the AVR that is "deciding" what to feed the system based on measurements coming in, etc. etc. (bottom line: Audyssey doesn't set the crossover points) and those results are usually not what's best for our setups (for example, many systems will come back with FULL RANGE results for all speakers when a sub is in the system, and we all know that to be "inaccurate"). But here's my question: SHOULD we just leave what Audyssey finds (those who use it) with regard to the crossovers because it's taking into account time delays, peaks, etc? Or is it more accurate to change the crossovers to settings we "believe" are more correct (i.e. setting a center to 80Hz, large floorstanding towers to 60Hz, etc.)?


Follow?

Quote:
Don't feed bass to speakers that cannot handle it from their smaller drivers (woofers/mids).

Yes, this I know.


Quote:
And anything over 120Hz (x-over) is not too good coming from a sub that'll become more 'localize-able' (sorry for the spelling).

Wait -- but 120Hz under the LPF of LFE IS correct, yes?

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post #242 of 783 Old 08-06-2014, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
This brings me to another question I had for you...


I know here you mentioned that I "don't engage Audyssey"...which had me thinking: We're always told that we should "stick with what Audyssey finds" at the end of a calibration/setup, and that includes crossovers -- but some say these crossovers SHOULD be changed after Audyssey runs because it's not Audyssey that is actually setting the crossover points, but the AVR that is "deciding" what to feed the system based on measurements coming in, etc. etc. (bottom line: Audyssey doesn't set the crossover points) and those results are usually not what's best for our setups (for example, many systems will come back with FULL RANGE results for all speakers when a sub is in the system, and we all know that to be "inaccurate"). But here's my question: SHOULD we just leave what Audyssey finds (those who use it) with regard to the crossovers because it's taking into account time delays, peaks, etc? Or is it more accurate to change the crossovers to settings we "believe" are more correct (i.e. setting a center to 80Hz, large floorstanding towers to 60Hz, etc.)?


Follow?

Wait -- but 120Hz under the LPF of LFE IS correct, yes?
Yes--raise the lpf to 120Hz, but no, even Chris at Audyssey recommends raising the crossover to at least 80 Hz if you have capable subs because there are more filters for the subwoofer output.
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post #243 of 783 Old 08-06-2014, 08:58 PM
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1*. Audyssey doesn't set the speakers' crossovers, your receiver does (Onkyo TX-SR605).
2. Yes, set the LPF of the LFE to 120Hz, in your Speakers Setup Menu.

* Many people don't know that. But it's very true; all receivers and SSPs are the ones setting all the speakers' crossovers.
...From their own internal Bass Management implementation (scheme). ...It varies; from the years them products were released, the brands from various AVRs/SSPs manufacturers, the quality and proper positioning of them calibrated mics supplied with them products, your room's acoustics, the designated minus 3dB point (speaker's bass frequencies), tra-la-la etc.
- Audyssey has nothing to do with it; just a short meeting with the manufacturer, behind close doors. ...Well, open doors.
And each manufacturer is different; there is NO Standard to speak of. ...In Audio, ...Surround Sound. ...Just general guidelines.
Nobody has to conform with them. ...Only trust Dolby, Datasat Digital Entertainment System, and You.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #244 of 783 Old 08-06-2014, 09:06 PM
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So, fellas (Sky and Zen):


I understand the LPF of LFE should be 120Hz, no question. But what about my other query...are we supposed to "trust" Audyssey's findings with regard to the crossovers (well, the receiver manufacturers, that is) because it's taking "other things into consideration," or should we adjust these based on what we know our SPEAKERS are capable of?

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post #245 of 783 Old 08-06-2014, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
So, fellas (Sky and Zen):


I understand the LPF of LFE should be 120Hz, no question. But what about my other query...are we supposed to "trust" Audyssey's findings with regard to the crossovers (well, the receiver manufacturers, that is) because it's taking "other things into consideration," or should we adjust these based on what we know our SPEAKERS are capable of?
All of my speakers are capable of going down to between 32 Hz to 45 Hz and the Denon sets them between 40 to 60 Hz. I run my Mains at 60 Hz and raise the others to 80 Hz because my subs can hit those notes easier and it takes the stress off of my AVR, and as reported, there are more Audyssey filters for the bass and my system seems to blend seamlessly at loud (as well as lower) volumes. YMMV.
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post #246 of 783 Old 08-06-2014, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I'm not making ANY EXCUSES for "never doing an Audyssey calibration"
List of excuses:
- you "don't believe" in it
- don't have proper tools
- won't buy a mic stand
- doesn't work with bitstream
- won't switch to PCM
- people on the internet said don't do it
- was told it wouldn't work
- couch reflections = inaccuracies
- don't care about 1/10th of a second
- pro installer couldn't make it work

Sanjay
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post #247 of 783 Old 08-06-2014, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
So, fellas (Sky and Zen):


I understand the LPF of LFE should be 120Hz, no question.
No question, indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IV
But what about my other query...are we supposed to "trust" Audyssey's findings with regard to the crossovers (well, the receiver manufacturers, that is) because it's taking "other things into consideration," or should we adjust these based on what we know our SPEAKERS are capable of?
All my speakers are able to reproduce audio frequencies below 35Hz (mains to 24Hz, center to 28Hz, and all the surrounds to 30Hz and 35Hz), and my Integra (internal bass management) sets them all to Full Band; but I manually reset them all afterwards to 80Hz. ...Raising them to that THX x-over is good for the souls of my speakers and good for the lows of my subwoofers and good for the dynamic range of my amplifiers.

* Just look @ all your speakers roughly minus 3dB point, and roughly double that for your x-over's choices.
Don't go over roughly 100-120Hz (110), as a guide. ...And stay within 20Hz between all your speakers' x-overs. And 80Hz is the middle ground, for most people, myself included.

1. The Room.
2. Two quality Subwoofers. ...Or four.
3. The listener; you.

The rest is just cheap whiskey. ...Software first, speakers second, electronics last.

Cables? Go wireless! ...Jk.

_______

EDIT: You are doing just fine with your x-over choices. And don't put much attention to what your Onkyo 605 set your speakers' x-overs to; like Full Range as you just mentioned above. ...Raise 'hell' (apply some crossovers of your own choice) from that, because raising the crossovers to near 80Hz is good overall, for everything.

<<>> And for people who engage Audyssey (not you), and with their receivers (or SSPs) setting the crossovers @ 100Hz (just as an example); you cannot lower them to say 80Hz, or you'd lose the Equing between 80 and 100hz. ...You can only raise "hell" (them x-overs).
This is not applying to you IntelliVolume, because like I said, you are not engaging Audyssey with your music and movie listening/watching. ...And even if you did, there is nothing EQued below roughly 1kHz, and even if there was something EQued down to 10Hz, your receiver set them all your speakers the Full Range anyway; so selecting a crossover for them all would be perfectly fine, just like I'm doing myself in that exact same situation.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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Last edited by NorthSky; 08-06-2014 at 11:59 PM. Reason: Edit
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post #248 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
No question, indeed.

Got it; I remember when you first advised me of this on HDD...

Quote:
All my speakers are able to reproduce audio frequencies below 35Hz (mains to 24Hz, center to 28Hz, and all the surrounds to 30Hz and 35Hz), and my Integra (internal bass management) sets them all to Full Band; but I manually reset them all afterwards to 80Hz. ...Raising them to that THX x-over is good for the souls of my speakers and good for the lows of my subwoofers and good for the dynamic range of my amplifiers.

* Just look @ all your speakers roughly minus 3dB point, and roughly double that for your x-over's choices.
Don't go over roughly 100-120Hz (110), as a guide. ...And stay within 20Hz between all your speakers' x-overs. And 80Hz is the middle ground, for most people, myself included.

1. The Room.
2. Two quality Subwoofers.
3. The listener; you.

The rest is just cheap whiskey. ...Software first, speakers second, electronics last.

Cables? Go wireless! ...Jk.

So are you saying that when the AVR, in an auto setup routine, selects certain crossovers it's perfectly okay to adjust them? I have read that it's suitable to go one certain way (up or down, I can't recall) based on what the auto setup found but not the other...

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post #249 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Dolby has provided the bass management standards for the last 15 years, and DTS just adopts them. Every brand that produces AVRs must pass the Dolby certification standards testing (and DTS), this process is done using an Audio Precision Cascade II system & APX 585. Here is a link for the subject test equipment, its cost is about $120K for the entire setup.
http://www.ap.com/products/apx585

There are (3) basic loudspeaker configurations that are tested, these are:
1. Configuration #1
All speakers are Small.
Regarding bass attenuation as I mentioned previously the amount of bass attenuation for the redirected low frequencies (not LFE) varies depending upon the # of speakers set to Small.
1 speaker has 0dB attenuation, 2 speakers has 4.5dB attenuation, 3 speakers has 7.2 dB attenuation, 4 speakers has 9.0 dB attenuation, and 5 speakers has 10,5 dB attenuation. Subwoofer required.
2. Configuration #2
Left/right fronts are Large and center and left/right surrounds are Small. Subwoofer is optional.
3. Configuration #3
Left/right fronts and left/right surounds are Large and Center is Small. Subwoofer is optional.

Note that there are other possible speaker configurations but these are the primary ones Dolby tests for.

I cannot post any of the subject pages as they are watermarked, and we are under NDA with Dolby, DTS and THX.

As I posted previously we have been doing Dolby, DTS and THX certifications for well over 15 years and know the respective processes intimately. To those on the outside they have little knowledge about the complexities found in each certified product. If U have any additional technical questions about bass management needing clarification PM me.

I hope the above explanation clears up any confusion U had.

Just my $0.03..
Thank you for your post. Appreciate it. Everything clear now.

Cheers, Feri


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post #250 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
So are you saying that when the AVR, in an auto setup routine, selects certain crossovers it's perfectly okay to adjust them? I have read that it's suitable to go one certain way (up or down, I can't recall) based on what the auto setup found but not the other...
I edited my post (number 248) just for you, look.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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Last edited by NorthSky; 08-07-2014 at 02:11 AM. Reason: 248
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post #251 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 12:32 AM
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I edited my post (number 249) just for you, look.

Oh yeah; I saw your edit afterwards...let me chew on that. Thanx!

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post #252 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 12:35 AM
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So NorthSky,


Just to clarify -- with my manual Onkyo 605 settings, are these okay (crossovers):


Polk RTi12 Mains: 60Hz
Polk CSi30 Center: 80Hz
SpeakerCraft In-Ceiling Surrounds: 80Hz



I know you said to look into those surrounds and adjusting them higher, which I will look into...

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post #253 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
So NorthSky,


Just to clarify -- with my manual Onkyo 605 settings, are these okay (crossovers):


Polk RTi12 Mains: 60Hz
Polk CSi30 Center: 80Hz
SpeakerCraft In-Ceiling Surrounds: 80Hz



I know you said to look into those surrounds and adjusting them higher, which I will look into...
Yes.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #254 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Oh yeah; I saw your edit afterwards...let me chew on that. Thanx!
THX for your cooperation.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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post #255 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
1. Configuration #1
All speakers are Small.
Regarding bass attenuation as I mentioned previously the amount of bass attenuation for the redirected low frequencies (not LFE) varies depending upon the # of speakers set to Small.
1 speaker has 0dB attenuation, 2 speakers has 4.5dB attenuation, 3 speakers has 7.2 dB attenuation, 4 speakers has 9.0 dB attenuation, and 5 speakers has 10,5 dB attenuation. Subwoofer required.
Where in the signal flow are you measuring this?

Markus

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post #256 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 01:22 AM
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Bickering and off-topic posts removed. Discuss the topic and not each other.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #257 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
This thread is taking all types of twist & turns..
But wanted to note a few years back in the proprietary Room EQ scheme done by Dr. Toole's R&D team @ Harman...
For the higher end HK, JBL Synthesis and Lexicon components they actually provided a 10" extension tube with ISO threads that screwed into the EQ microphone and into a tripod. This raised the microphone up into the air high enough so that there was no interference from nearby reflections that can/will corrupt the microphone's electrical performance measurements.

Regarding which EQ scheme is the best is a debate that goes on and on and on..
Though we are qualified as an Audyssey pro installer, we have sold/installed virtually all of the competition and ran room EQ sweeps of before & after.

<<< Still, my personal preference though expensive we liked the Dirac the best >>>.

But whenever possible I would recommend to the listener to audition an home theater system that uses full-range loudspeakers rather than the widely used subwoofer/satellite system. The sonic gains achieved bypassing the DSP's bass manager are very audible.

Just my $0.03...
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Not to confuse the bass from the full-range loudspeakers with the LFE track (.1) from the subwoofer, note when all loudspeakers are in full-range mode the subwoofer handles only the LFE...
However if the source material does not have an LFE track then yes certain sensitivity arises for the positioning of the subwoofers. But since we are faithful follower of Dr.Toole's multiple subwoofers (2) this helps immensely in controlling room node/resonance issues.

Another major advantage for bypassing the bass manager is the the DSP processor now has more available headroom, by not having to do the various X-overs for frequencies /slopes plus the bass redirection/mixing. Note that having the subwoofers only handling the LFE track, the entire frequency spectrum delivered by the complete HT system is fuller and crisper with tighter bass. The crucial factor is the optimizing of the various output levels for each channel for the proper voicing and soundstage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Bass signals from multiple channels may add together electrically somewhat differently than they would combine acoustically. For example, 2 identical bass signals will electrically sum to a 6dB stronger signal. Acoustically they may only result in a 4.5 dB gain stronger signal or less. This difference can compound when several are combined into a single subwoofer output. If U consider a 1 channel signal based upon 1 satellite speaker and 1 subwoofer, it is possible to set the subwoofer level to blend with the satellite's speaker output level exactly. This will result in the same frequency response balance as a conventional full-range speaker. However if the system adds another satellite speaker for stereo but uses the same subwoofer driven from both channels, the electrical bass summation will increase the output by as much as 6 dB...

And when multi-channel audio is reproduced the same electrical bass buildup can occur and lead to bass levels that are over-emphasized by up to >3dB. This means that the user may need to use a different subwoofer gain setting to obtain a pleasing frequency balance. Also keep in mind that movie soundtracks create and use bass effects in totally different ways from music recordings which further requires the need for the user to tailor the subwoofer levels. Tha'ts precisely why certain high end processors actually provide an LFE trim control besides a subwoofer level control.

The energy from the LFE track is much deeper in frequency than the bass frequencies from the other, normal channels. The pertinent point missed by many users is that frequency spectrum starts with the LFE, steps to the bass frequencies and then upward. If the LFE levels are mismatched the entire HT system will never deliver sonically up to its performance potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Dolby designed/built into the bass manager a 10dB attenuation for the subwoofer for the redirected bass frequencies for all channels set to Small..
But what complicates the system is when the redirected summed bass is mixed with the LFE...
That why I posted previously the feature that certain higher end AVRs and processors have is the LFE trim control. How the bass manager functions is often misunderstood, but since we work directly with Dolby & DTS as a support link with the DSP suppliers we have some experience here..
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
A general statement that subwoofers can be placed anywhere in the room is totally bogus..
Subwoofer placement is crucial that's why before we do an install, firstly we do a complete sweep of the room to find out about its acoustic footprint. Many room nodes/resonances can be minimized with simply smart positioning of the subwoofer...
But as I posted previously, we strongly recommend using (2) subwoofers as this significantly helps the situation..

In certain extreme cases, some EQ may be required....
However we do about 8-10 installs a month, and the majority of our customers prefer their systems with the EQ off. We have found using quality loudspeakers and intelligent positioning of these, that most of the acoustic issues are minimized and no EQ is required. The sonic performance of a well setup system can be incredible and eye-opening to many, I think too many users have simply accepted that compressed streams are the norm and sound good...
Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Dolby has provided the bass management standards for the last 15 years, and DTS just adopts them. Every brand that produces AVRs must pass the Dolby certification standards testing (and DTS), this process is done using an Audio Precision Cascade II system & APX 585. Here is a link for the subject test equipment, its cost is about $120K for the entire setup.
http://www.ap.com/products/apx585

There are (3) basic loudspeaker configurations that are tested, these are:
1. Configuration #1
All speakers are Small.
Regarding bass attenuation as I mentioned previously the amount of bass attenuation for the redirected low frequencies (not LFE) varies depending upon the # of speakers set to Small.
1 speaker has 0dB attenuation, 2 speakers has 4.5dB attenuation, 3 speakers has 7.2 dB attenuation, 4 speakers has 9.0 dB attenuation, and 5 speakers has 10,5 dB attenuation. Subwoofer required.
2. Configuration #2
Left/right fronts are Large and center and left/right surrounds are Small. Subwoofer is optional.
3. Configuration #3
Left/right fronts and left/right surrounds are Large and Center is Small. Subwoofer is optional.

Note that there are other possible speaker configurations but these are the primary ones Dolby tests for.

I cannot post any of the subject pages as they are watermarked, and we are under NDA with Dolby, DTS and THX.

As I posted previously we have been doing Dolby, DTS and THX certifications for well over 15 years and know the respective processes intimately. To those on the outside they have little knowledge about the complexities found in each certified product. If any of U have any additional technical questions about bass management needing clarification PM me.

I hope the above explanation clears up any confusion some of U might had.
I did not expect spending an enormous amount of time in this thread here, but I did. ...Several hours. ...Rereading.
And your posts in particular had an important impact on many aspects that you mentioned above.

You brought some points that have me rethinking few things here with bass and Room EQs and Audyssey and AccuEQ and Onkyo/Integra and Denon/Marantz, plus how theiy implement their own bass management into their products, plus the DSP power processing, plus so many other important things about full range speakers, separate LFE channel, ...

Your knowledge is evident, and your points have to be taken into very serious consideration.
More experimentation and readings are required from my part; there is simply no doubt about it.

You remind me of Roger Dressler in ways that are closer than farther apart.
There is some Kal Rubinson in you also; ideas that are making sense and facts that are true.

More time is required for me to analyse further, in greater depth, digesting your writings based on solid grounds.

Thank you for your cooperation, for your participation here; it is comforting, confirming some illuminations, traversing the essence, ...on balanced multichannel sound. ...On balanced bass frequencies from all around. ...On perfectly leveled channel's integration.

Bests, ~ Robert § (Bob)

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Last edited by NorthSky; 08-07-2014 at 02:05 AM.
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post #258 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 03:04 AM
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Your general statement that subwoofers can be placed anywhere in the room is totally bogus..
Good job I never said that then. I said that subs need to be placed in the optimum postion in the room wrt to modes. Pretty much the exact opposite of what you say I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Subwoofer placement is crucial thats why before we do an install, firstly we do a complete sweep of the room to find out about its acoustic footprint. Many room nodes/resonances can be minmized with simply smart positioning of the subwoofer...
But as I posted previously, we strongly recommend using (2) subwoofers as this significantly helps the situation..
Yes, I know all that. But you said initially that main speakers designed to handle the "full range" were the way to go. Clearly, when using subwoofers with a crossover set to 80Hz or whatever, the main speakers will not be running "full range" and this is where I am not understanding you at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
In certain extreme cases, some EQ may be required....
Yes, I know. I already said that.

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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
However we do about 8-10 installs a month, and the majority of our customers prefer their systems with the EQ off. We have found using quality loudspeakers and intelligent positioning of these, that most of the acoustic issues are minimized and no EQ is required. The sonic performance of a well setup system can be incredible and eye-opening to many, I think too many users have simply accepted that compressed streams are the norm and sound good...

Just my $0.03...
Is this in rooms with or without acoustic treatment? I can’t really see how, if you are not using EQ and not using treatments, placement alone is going to deal with room modes, unwanted reflections and so on.


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post #259 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I thought you said WE CAN GO NO FURTHER with this discussion...
No I didn’t say that. I said we can go no further with the discussion about electronic EQ. This is a separate discussion.

This is what I said:

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
OK. To me sound reproduction and acoustics are branches of science. To you, they are branches of 'magic'. I guess we can't progress a discussion on that basis. If you believe that the room does not distort the sound made by your loudspeakers, and you choose to ignore the science which shows that it does, we can go no further with this particular discussion. Enjoy your music and movies!


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post #260 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Were you? In that case I must have missed the topic, sorry. But a search on this page with the key-word "Harman" showed no results in your previous posts.

Actually, the Audyssey target curve is flat to 4 kHz, has a slight roll-off from 4kHz - 10 kHz (-2dB @ 10 kHz), and another additional roll-off from 10 kHz - 20 kHz (-6dB @ 20 kHz).

I wouldn't call 4 kHz the end of the HF region.

Yeah, thanks, I just copied/pasted the above target curve info from the FAQ!!

Why should the Audyssey target curve be perfectly flat when it is the curve that has "Da Slope" as described in the FAQ compiled by a poster named kbarnes701? On the otherhand, it IS the Audyssey Flat curve that is supposed to be flat, isn't it?
This is a pointless discussion IMO and I am withdrawing from it.


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post #261 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I know this is going to open up a WHOLE inevitable can of ridiculous, asinine and scientifically-bolstered can of friggin' worms, but I just PREFER that my SOURCE send a signal and my AVR decode it; call it liking to look at the "DTS-HD MSTR" light on the front of the receiver or the fact that I would rather bass management be handled at the AVR (well, I'm not using analog outs from the player so I suppose this is moot) but I don't want to send PCM signals from the OPPO (I went over this in a previous post with regard to my previous Panasonic first generation DMP-BD10A and the way it didn't support bitstreamed transport of the high resolution codecs).
That's fine. It's just your preference then and you like to see the DTS-HD MA light come on on the AVR. Nothing at all wrong with that. I thought you were saying there was some sort of difference between where the codec was unpacked.

Just for completeness though, not letting the player do the unpacking and sending PCM to the AVR is preventing you from using Audyssey - even just for experimenting. Although, as I have said, XT32 is really the only version of Audyssey I can recommend anyway. I do think that if you were to experience what XT32 can do, compared with the 'lesser' versions of Audyssey, you would be surprised.
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post #262 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I didn't "balk" at anything -- I'm merely saying that I AM OF THE OPINION THAT I'd rather spend that money OUT OF PRINCIPLE on a Blu-ray Disc than a mic for a system (2EQ) that YOU YOURSELF CALL USELESS (I have my reasons for doing so).




So why the !@^!@!*@W#@* are we even having this discussion then with regard to MY setup? That's what I have right now -- an Onkyo 605 with 2EQ and there's NOTHING I can do about that at the moment due to budgetary constraints, so if the program sucks, like we're all pretty much agreeing on, why can't we just leave well enough alone already and accept that I'd rather run this system WITH NO EQ applied?
My issue with it was that you said that no EQ, from any AVR would ever be good enough for you. Moved on from 2EQ - we agreed several posts back that 2EQ is useless.


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post #263 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I know here you mentioned that I "don't engage Audyssey"...which had me thinking: We're always told that we should "stick with what Audyssey finds" at the end of a calibration/setup, and that includes crossovers -- but some say these crossovers SHOULD be changed after Audyssey runs because it's not Audyssey that is actually setting the crossover points, but the AVR that is "deciding" what to feed the system based on measurements coming in, etc. etc. (bottom line: Audyssey doesn't set the crossover points) and those results are usually not what's best for our setups (for example, many systems will come back with FULL RANGE results for all speakers when a sub is in the system, and we all know that to be "inaccurate"). But here's my question: SHOULD we just leave what Audyssey finds (those who use it) with regard to the crossovers because it's taking into account time delays, peaks, etc? Or is it more accurate to change the crossovers to settings we "believe" are more correct (i.e. setting a center to 80Hz, large floorstanding towers to 60Hz, etc.)?

Here you go:

c)4. Is it OK to change the Crossovers from Audyssey's recommendation?


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Last edited by kbarnes701; 08-07-2014 at 03:39 AM.
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post #264 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Excuse me, AVS people: Just to take a break from this ongoing idiotic struggle I seem to be having with durani:


Is there anyone else here who uses or who has had advanced experience with Audyssey that believes placing the setup mic on the COUCH HEADREST or the back of the pillow is an acceptable method for getting accurate results from the system?


I was always told that this is NOT acceptable for getting accurate readings...
(1) IME Durani is a reliable source of information about room acoustics. Contradict him at your own risk.

(2) I am a professional recordist and my years of experience with micrphones suggests that putting a mic on top of a padded surface such as a headrest or pillow should not color its response excessively if at all. A reflective surface would be bad, but these aren't reflective surfaces.

This is IMO a petty argument. Can we get back to business? ;-)
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post #265 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I'm simply not trying to achieve one-tenth of a second of better time alignment and surround information arrival...it's not THAT important;
In 1/10 of a second sound travels... 34 meters in the air!!! Well... if that is accurate enough for you... I don't know what to tell more.
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post #266 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
In 1/10 of a second sound travels... 34 meters in the air!!! Well... if that is accurate enough for you... I don't know what to tell more.
LOL - great point, Igor.


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post #267 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
(1) IME Durani is a reliable source of information about room acoustics. Contradict him at your own risk.

(2) I am a professional recordist and my years of experience with micrphones suggests that putting a mic on top of a padded surface such as a headrest or pillow should not color its response excessively if at all. A reflective surface would be bad, but these aren't reflective surfaces.

This is IMO a petty argument. Can we get back to business? ;-)
Agreed on both counts, Arny.

The usual Audyssey advice not to place the mic on the couch is solid IMO, but it has to be looked at intelligently and not just followed blindly. Audyssey have to give a set of instructions that will work for most cases their users encounter, and if they simply said 'place the mic on any support you have to hand' you'd get people putting it on top of a leather chair (bad for reflections), or on top of a wooden stepladder (bad for vibrations) and so on. So they advise to use a mic stand (perfect) or a tripod (fairly good). And the latter two will indeed give reliable and repeatable results. But, as you and Sanjay say, this does not 100% rule out putting the mic on the back of the couch, in some instances, and if the user knows what he is doing and why.

In the Audyssey thread, where people bring their problems with Audyssey calibrations, and indeed in my Audyssey FAQ, the advice is *always* to use a mic stand or tripod, simply because that advice removes another variable from their problem. But that advice needs to be seen in context.

Saying that one 'doesn’t have the equipment' to run Audyssey does smack of an excuse NOT to run Audyssey.


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post #268 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
1. Configuration #1
All speakers are Small.
Regarding bass attenuation as I mentioned previously the amount of bass attenuation for the redirected low frequencies (not LFE) varies depending upon the # of speakers set to Small.
1 speaker has 0dB attenuation, 2 speakers has 4.5dB attenuation, 3 speakers has 7.2 dB attenuation, 4 speakers has 9.0 dB attenuation, and 5 speakers has 10,5 dB attenuation. Subwoofer required.
This is part of a digital gain structure (in trying to avoid clipping, quite a virtual one... and quite optimistic one I would say). But how this translates to the output sound pressure levels after normalization and converting it to SPL?
Why, when measuring combined response of crossed over speaker(one)&sub, don't I see the attenuation?
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post #269 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by javygonx View Post
Yes, thats the only Audessey I havent tried; the XT32; but honesty from MultiEQ to XT I didn't noticed any difference. Maybe from XT to XT32 iys just barely.

Maybe one day I will try it; just from a borrow receiver; I dont think I will spend $$$ on a Audessey Xt32 receiver. At this moment Audessey for me its very good but not as good as Advanced MCACC.

If you get the opportunity, listen to an XT32 setup. I have had all of the versions of Audyssey and until XT32, I was never really impressed with what they did (very limited correction). I just used them as an automated distance and level calibrator. When I upgraded to a receiver with XT32, I ran the calibration thinking "another version of Audyssey with different letters, whoop te do". After the calibration, I sat down to listen. It was startling the difference that it made. My wife came home later and I didn't say anything to her about it. I didn't want to influence her opinion. Later, we sat down to watch a movie. Five minutes in she says "OK, what did you change?". She couldn't believe that I hadn't changed speakers or something. With the exception of purchasing a proper sub that really plays flat down to 20 hz, XT32 was the only purchase I have made over the decades of buying home audio equipment that was a HUGE difference to me.

Some people prefer no EQ or to do it themselves, but IME, it is a very worthy upgrade. Given, if your room is dedicated and acoustically treated, you may not notice such a drastic improvement, but for those of us that have a less than ideal room, XT32 is a real treat.

After hearing what XT32 could do, I was very eager to hear a Dirac setup as I have heard great things, but the pricing for it is unjustifiable to me.
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post #270 of 783 Old 08-07-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post
Thank you for your post. Appreciate it. Everything clear now.

U are welcome..

Just my $0.03...
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