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post #1 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Internal DAC; How important in buying decision?

Looking to buy a new mid-range receiver for basement home theater. I see some manufacturers make a big deal about their internal DAC's and others do not even reference them in their specs. Questions: 1) Do they all have internal DACs? 2); If so, is there any discernable difference in sound quality due to the DAC?; and 3) If so, which DAC is considered superior? I will use the receiver for both video and audio in near equal amounts. I am leaning towards the new Denon X2100 ($699), but I could be swayed to another sub $1,000 receiver if the value is there.

Thanks for any advice,
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post #2 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 11:02 AM
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It is all marketing. What brand of DAC you have in our AVR has nothing to do with the sound of the system. There are differences in specifications but the differences in those specifications are inaudible.
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post #3 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
It is all marketing. What brand of DAC you have in our AVR has nothing to do with the sound of the system. There are differences in specifications but the differences in those specifications are inaudible.
That would confirm my thoughts, so far.

Thanks.
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post #4 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 11:59 AM
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I rank the importance of receiver DACs as similar to Yamaha's fifth foot

Maybe it's for bragging rights or to pick up ladies. "Hey, want to come back to my place baby? My receiver has a Sabre DAC!"

Let's say there are audible DAC differences? How would you know with all the other circuitry? Maybe some do have audible flaws, but how would someone know that?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #5 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
I rank the importance of receiver DACs as similar to Yamaha's fifth foot

Maybe it's for bragging rights or to pick up ladies. "Hey, want to come back to my place baby? My receiver has a Sabre DAC!"

Let's say there are audible DAC differences? How would you know with all the other circuitry? Maybe some do have audible flaws, but how would someone know that?
The Yamaha 5th foot was my other question; two birds with one stone. I see no DAC defenders, so I must conclude it don't matter.

Thanks.
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post #6 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 02:22 PM
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There are DAC defenders But perhaps not as many in this sub forum.

Douglas Self has this concept of blameless amplifier. If you do your best to reduce distortion as much as possible for every part of the circuit that can introduce distortion, you can't blame the amplifier. Two amplifiers might have theoretically inaudible distortion but one has been designed better (within cost limitations etc.)

I suppose DACs might be the same way. If you can reduce distortion and keep costs reasonable, why not do so. When buying receivers, you understand that every single part is scrutinized, so DACs have to be pretty cheap at lower price points.

Once a company charges enough for the receiver, they can justify upgrading parts, and it makes sense to try to market this fact for high visibility parts.

If you are paying 1500+ for example for a Yamaha receiver, I hope you aren't paying this just because of some upgraded DACs. Better YPAO, better power supply, fancier DSP, better construction, etc.

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post #7 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
There are DAC defenders But perhaps not as many in this sub forum.

Douglas Self has this concept of blameless amplifier. If you do your best to reduce distortion as much as possible for every part of the circuit that can introduce distortion, you can't blame the amplifier. Two amplifiers might have theoretically inaudible distortion but one has been designed better (within cost limitations etc.)

I suppose DACs might be the same way. If you can reduce distortion and keep costs reasonable, why not do so. When buying receivers, you understand that every single part is scrutinized, so DACs have to be pretty cheap at lower price points.

Once a company charges enough for the receiver, they can justify upgrading parts, and it makes sense to try to market this fact for high visibility parts.

If you are paying 1500+ for example for a Yamaha receiver, I hope you aren't paying this just because of some upgraded DACs. Better YPAO, better power supply, fancier DSP, better construction, etc.
What brought this up in my decision process was a comparison to the Pioneer Elite VSX-80/81 which is in a similar price range to the new Denon X2100 (around $700). Pioneer touts the inclusion of the ESS Sabre 24-Bit DAC in their unit, so I just want to be sure that this is not a significant factor for sound performance. Honestly, if the Pioneer had built-in Wifi and Bluetooth, I would likely have been swayed by this bit of marketing genius.

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post #8 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Husky View Post
Looking to buy a new mid-range receiver for basement home theater. I see some manufacturers make a big deal about their internal DAC's and others do not even reference them in their specs. Questions: 1) Do they all have internal DACs?
Yes.. they have internal DACs.
Quote:
2) If so, is there any discernable difference in sound quality due to the DAC?
Little sonic differences between DACs in current AVRs.
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3) If so, which DAC is considered superior? I will use the receiver for both video and audio in near equal amounts. I am leaning towards the new Denon X2100 ($699), but I could be swayed to another sub $1,000 receiver if the value is there.
Thanks for any advice,
Husky
Today most AVRs use a single integrated chip for the ADCs(analog to digital converters), DACs(digital to analog converters) and DIR(digital interface rx). This chip is <$2 and has 8 channels of 192kHz, 24 Bit conversion. Due to the highly integration of the silicon chips, high performance DACs which used to cost about $1 per channel are now available @ very low pricing when combined with other digital functions..

Just my $0.05..
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post #9 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks; that is good info. It sounds like you would agree that using the Sabre 24-Bit DAC or others (Burr-brown, etc...) are marketing ploys and not sonic improvements worth considering in a A/V receiver.
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post #10 of 28 Old 07-11-2014, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Husky View Post
Thanks; that is good info. It sounds like you would agree that using the Sabre 24-Bit DAC or others (Burr-brown, etc...) are marketing ploys and not sonic improvements worth considering in a A/V receiver.
There are several suppliers of DACs including Wolfson, Cirrus Logic (Crystal), Analog Devices, Sabre, AKM, Burr Brown..
My basic point is that in the earlier days a good DAC was expensive but now they much cheaper due to the silicon integration.. More functions, features and performance @ a lower cost. Since we do product development for multiple leading consumer audio and pro audio brands we are often asked about this subject. Though frequently we can measure some electrical performance specification differences they are quite small...
Unless the DAC is one of the real cheapee ones, and in most instances seeing a measured difference does not necessarily equate to sounding better. The marketing boys like to throw out certain fluff, but just like they have done withe power output specs they have stretched these beyond reasonable levels..

IMHO...
Spend more time & $ comparing loudspeakers and amplifiers rather than DACs, as they are far more pertinent and crucial for the end sonic delivery of the system/component chain....

Just my $0.05...

Last edited by M Code; 07-11-2014 at 05:54 PM.
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post #11 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 01:53 AM
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I'm firmly in the camp of DACs in general are NOT all the same. But I get that coming from a primarily consumer electronics experience. Cheap DACs used in laptops, portable music players, phones, etc are going to have audibly inferior quality. When I bought a high quality external DAC to listen to music coming from my computer, I could hear a noticeable improvement with the same source file.

That said, those devices are not built with high quality audio being a primary driver in the design. An AVR is, so any good AVR designer wanting to get good audio quality from his product is going to put a good quality DAC in it. So it would not surprise me in the least if there were no audible differences between any of the DACs used in any good quality modern AVR.

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post #12 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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You have highlighted on of the disconnects for me on this question; why an external DAC for a computer or MP3 player can, reportedly, make a huge difference in sound (compared to using the internal DAC) at a cost of hundreds of dollars, while A/V receiver DACs all sound the same and cost $2? I have concluded that the DAC won't make a difference for my receiver purchase, but this makes no sense to me.
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post #13 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Husky View Post
You have highlighted on of the disconnects for me on this question; why an external DAC for a computer or MP3 player can, reportedly, make a huge difference in sound (compared to using the internal DAC) at a cost of hundreds of dollars, while A/V receiver DACs all sound the same and cost $2? I have concluded that the DAC won't make a difference for my receiver purchase, but this makes no sense to me.
For their to be a disconnect, you have to prove that these external DACs you speak of make some difference.

Also, it's one thing to discuss theoretical differences for sound from DAC chips. It's another thing to talk about moving the digital to audio conversion external to a PC, which could have some benefits due to the electronic noise inside a computer. Maybe there's still no difference, but it is a different discussion.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #14 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 10:03 AM
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There is a difference however most people won't have multiple DAC to test out. At best you might compare the analogue out of a CD Player, to digital out with an external stereo DAC.

If people think a cheap ass DVD player sounds the same to the same DVD player, digital out, into a high end DAC....they're deaf. LOL

Quote:
I have concluded that the DAC won't make a difference for my receiver purchase, but this makes no sense to me.
Taken advice from people who say everything says the same? haha.

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post #15 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 10:31 AM
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I'm in the camp that says that specific DACs mostly sound the same. I do think there can be implementation differences that can make slight differences but those are small. One recent feature difference is the ability to decode DSD files. Not all DACs can accept DSD so if that is important to you keep an eye out for that. The Pioneer receivers with the Sabre DAC can and it's one of the reasons I'm waiting for it to be released.
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post #16 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
There is a difference however most people won't have multiple DAC to test out. At best you might compare the analogue out of a CD Player, to digital out with an external stereo DAC.

If people think a cheap ass DVD player sounds the same to the same DVD player, digital out, into a high end DAC....they're deaf. LOL



Taken advice from people who say everything says the same? haha.
Seeing how I would hook up the cheap or pricey DVD player via HDMI, I would expect ZERO difference in fidelity. I understand you can use a player with MC outputs, and a receiver with MC inputs, but I suspect few people do this.

The cheap player would generally lack MC outputs anyway. It might have stereo, but how many people hook it up that way?

Even if the cheapo player DID have MC outputs, I would assume it would have acceptable fidelity, but I would also wonder why I was hooking it up using the MC outputs!

"But this one goes up to 11"

Last edited by MichaelJHuman; 07-12-2014 at 11:16 AM.
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post #17 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I will remain open minded, until I make the actual purchase, but I have not heard (or seen anything) that convinces me a brand-name DAC should be a significant factor in an A/V receiver purchase. Assuming that this does not change, I will decide based on more tangible specs like built-in wifi, bluetooth, amp power, etc... I do not use DSD files, so that is not an issue for me.

Thanks to all for your opinions.
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post #18 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 11:57 AM
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This thread is getting pulled of target...
It was centered about DACs in our AVRs then went down to DACs in cheap MP3 players & phones..
Any player of compressed material be it AAC, MP3, WMA is going to lose sonic resolution as 90% of the original source material has been tossed out..
A good reference resource is the below link..
Though oriented toward music, it does provide an interesting insight.

http://www.distortionofsound.com/

Just my $0.05...
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post #19 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 12:14 PM
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There are threads that discuss hot button topics like DACs that don't get pulled off target?

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #20 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
Even if the cheapo player DID have MC outputs, I would assume it would have acceptable fidelity, but I would also wonder why I was hooking it up using the MC outputs!
Because not everyone has HDMI, I use MC input from my Oppo. My AV pre doesn't have HDMI inputs.

Also if there is no difference in sound quality between DAC then of course you have no problem buying the cheapest possible DVD player, using the stereo outputs, and listening to a CD from the DVD player.

I tried comparing stereo outputs from a cheap DVD player and digital out....no they didn't sound the same.

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post #21 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
Because not everyone has HDMI, I use MC input from my Oppo. My AV pre doesn't have HDMI inputs.

Also if there is no difference in sound quality between DAC then of course you have no problem buying the cheapest possible DVD player, using the stereo outputs, and listening to a CD from the DVD player.

I tried comparing stereo outputs from a cheap DVD player and digital out....no they didn't sound the same.
I agree not everyone has HDMI. But most people do, making it a moot point for most people

I remember a time when people were excited about some cheapo Radio Shack portable player due to the supposed awesomeness of the DACs. I just can't get excited over what seems like a simple circuit I would have thought was perfected 20+ years ago.

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post #22 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
I agree not everyone has HDMI. But most people do, making it a moot point for most people

I remember a time when people were excited about some cheapo Radio Shack portable player due to the supposed awesomeness of the DACs. I just can't get excited over what seems like a simple circuit I would have thought was perfected 20+ years ago.
Whether something has been technically perfected for superior audio quality and whether someone uses that design in their mass market products are two different things though. There's plenty of examples of superior technology losing out because of economics, VHS over Beta, LCD over Plasma, ITunes/compressed downloads over CDs.

When a company has to manufacture 5 million devices and they have to get production costs under $X per unit, and they have a choice between a sonically superior component and a cheaper one, they aren't necessarily going to pick the superior one.
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post #23 of 28 Old 07-12-2014, 09:34 PM
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The DAC doesn't matter.

Whether you're talking about a crappy Realtek in a PC or a high end Sabre/Burr-Brown/etc.

They're pretty much all the same, and the quality of them are generally quite good. Even the amp doesn't matter that much - they generally make the signal bigger.

What really matters is everything around them. The care and feeding of the DACs, the filter and buffer stages, and the components around those has a strong impact on perceived audio quality. Good manufacturers can use better design tools and components with better stability and characteristics. Cheap manufacturers skimp.

PC sound cards can be different because they as just a tiny part of the entire system - given cost pressures, they'll use low end parts and simplistic designs and improper layouts just to make it fit within the cost and board space available.

You can make high end amps from low end parts, and they measure among the best the measurement tools can provide (see e.g., NwAvGuy's O2 amp), and DACs too. That's how good the stuff is today. But the problem is it requires good design techniques, attention to details, etc. Low end stuff just doesn't have the ability to do that.

Likewise, you can take high end parts and seriously screw up your design and make it perform terribly.
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post #24 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks.
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post #25 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Husky View Post
You have highlighted on of the disconnects for me on this question; why an external DAC for a computer or MP3 player can, reportedly, make a huge difference in sound (compared to using the internal DAC) at a cost of hundreds of dollars, while A/V receiver DACs all sound the same and cost $2? I have concluded that the DAC won't make a difference for my receiver purchase, but this makes no sense to me.

There is nothing wrong with the DAC's in computers and digital players. Improvements from adding an external one are all a matter of hearing bias, not something within the DAC itself. When I am at this computer I am always listening to music through a 100 wpc receiver, pair of bookshelf speakers and a 12" subwoofer. The DAC used to bring the data to the analog domain? Well that is whatever the manufacturer put on my mainboard. Would an external DAC sound better? No, sorry.
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post #26 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post

If people think a cheap ass DVD player sounds the same to the same DVD player, digital out, into a high end DAC....they're deaf. LOL

No, they are better informed and don't fall prey to their hearing bias like you do.
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post #27 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
There is nothing wrong with the DAC's in computers and digital players. Improvements from adding an external one are all a matter of hearing bias, not something within the DAC itself. When I am at this computer I am always listening to music through a 100 wpc receiver, pair of bookshelf speakers and a 12" subwoofer. The DAC used to bring the data to the analog domain? Well that is whatever the manufacturer put on my mainboard. Would an external DAC sound better? No, sorry.
Often, built-in DACs in computers and laptops have audible interference. That shouldn't be a problem for a receiver, though.
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post #28 of 28 Old 07-13-2014, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
There is nothing wrong with the DAC's in computers and digital players. Improvements from adding an external one are all a matter of hearing bias, not something within the DAC itself. When I am at this computer I am always listening to music through a 100 wpc receiver, pair of bookshelf speakers and a 12" subwoofer. The DAC used to bring the data to the analog domain? Well that is whatever the manufacturer put on my mainboard. Would an external DAC sound better? No, sorry.
Hearing loss?

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