Emotiva XMC-1 Chat Thread: technical talk only please - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
You can't. I've tried to point it out several times at Lounge, but every time I tell something important there it's getting ignored by the Emotiva guys, while some less important small-talks usually get attention from them.. So, while you have all the necessary electronics in the XMC-1 to do proper mono multi-sub management... you still need an extra ADC/DSP/DAC box to add the delay when you need it The same goes with the Reference Level Offset for Loudness feature.

What is most pity - both are really trivial thing to implement, just an addition of few menus in the UI to set parameters and a few lines of code in the DSP itself.

May be we should open a topic there and collectively voice our needs...
Good luck. I've tried that when the UMC-1 came out. I've tried it when the UMC-200 came out. Their reaction: I was banned from their forum, twice.
Emotiva has a boneheaded approach when it comes to rank features by usefulness and listen to customers that might have more to bring to the table than the average Joe.
Example: it was me that got UMC-200 support into REW, not Emotiva.

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post #272 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
You can't. I've tried to point it out several times at Lounge, but every time I tell something important there it's getting ignored by the Emotiva guys, while some less important small-talks usually get attention from them.. So, while you have all the necessary electronics in the XMC-1 to do proper mono multi-sub management... you still need an extra ADC/DSP/DAC box to add the delay when you need it The same goes with the Reference Level Offset for Loudness feature.

What is most pity - both are really trivial thing to implement, just an addition of few menus in the UI to set parameters and a few lines of code in the DSP itself.

May be we should open a topic there and collectively voice our needs...
Let me make sure I understand this: If I have two subs that are NOT equidistant from the LP, there is no ability in this product (short of adding an additional box) to correctly and appropriate deal with it???

R 8:28


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post #273 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Let me make sure I understand this: If I have two subs that are NOT equidistant from the LP, there is no ability in this product (short of adding an additional box) to correctly and appropriate deal with it???
Think this on through. Simply relocate one sub to be the same distance as the other.
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post #274 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Let me make sure I understand this: If I have two subs that are NOT equidistant from the LP, there is no ability in this product (short of adding an additional box) to correctly and appropriate deal with it???
You understand it correctly (according to draft manual and their talk at Lounge).
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post #275 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 04:26 PM
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Think this on through. Simply relocate one sub to be the same distance as the other.
This is often impossible in realistic small-room conditions, this often is not what is desirable. Sometimes it is just necessary to have different delay between two outs. Imagine the only 'perfect' sub (a Double Bass Array) - it needs second array delayed in relation to the first one to work at all - it is not the distance to the sub, it is the distance between subs in this particular case. So, this need of delay scales through all the range of different situations, where two symmetrical subs is just one case somewhere in the middle of that range... And really, I don't need two outs with separate DACs that are just exact copy of each other - I could just use Y connector instead with the same success. If/when I need two outs there is a really good reason for it.
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post #276 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
This is often impossible in realistic small-room conditions, this often is not what is desirable. Sometimes it is just necessary to have different delay between two outs. Imagine the only 'perfect' sub (a Double Bass Array) - it needs second array delayed in relation to the first one to work at all - it is not the distance to the sub, it is the distance between subs in this particular case. So, this need of delay scales through all the range of different situations, where two symmetrical subs is just one case somewhere in the middle of that range... And really, I don't need two outs with separate DACs that are just exact copy of each other - I could just use Y connector instead with the same success. If/when I need two outs there is a really good reason for it.
Excellent. Did you think I was serious?
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post #277 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
while you have all the necessary electronics in the XMC-1 to do proper mono multi-sub management... you still need an extra ADC/DSP/DAC box to add the delay when you need it
Are you sure, can you quote the paragraph on that? (i.e. Direct/Stereo mode, we already know it can't to anything but static 2-ch in Ref Mode).
That would suck a bit, if true.

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post #278 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 05:33 PM
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Excellent. Did you think I was serious?
Chance of knowing that was almost impossible. ...The emoticon accompanying the text would have to be very specific. ,,,Yours wasn't.
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post #279 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 10:17 PM
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With all of these missing features I think I'm missing the point of this big product release. Several features I was banking on are not even being delivered... Wtf?
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post #280 of 1284 Old 07-19-2014, 10:32 PM
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Where's that forum? ...Which one, the Emotiva Lounge?

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post #281 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by BBLV View Post
With all of these missing features I think I'm missing the point of this big product release. Several features I was banking on are not even being delivered... Wtf?
Banking is the key word. The XMC-1 hardware that was produced was sitting in inventory. It needed to be sold "as is" to recoup as much of the cost as possible. That is what they are banking on. This product had an unusually long development/nondevelopment/redevelopment cycle dating back to the last decade and along with that came huge costs that must be very difficult for a relatively small company to absorb.

Many of the sales will go to those who absolutely worship that company. They will accept whatever is produced and will provide glowing reviews about "the best sounding pre/pro ever created". Other more discerning customers will find the inevitable flaws and we will see what happens, as this continuing saga unfolds, but past history hasn't been pretty.

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post #282 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 06:44 AM
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Emo crapped their pants yet again with another processor release...sigh.

Glad they make good amps
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post #283 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 07:12 AM
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Emo crapped their pants yet again with another processor release...sigh.

Glad they make good amps
They've proven that they understand "old school" analog audio technology and have proven that they do not understand the ever evolving digital audio and video technologies. It is as simple as that.

They are dreamers and big promisers, but in the end, they simply do not have the sophisticated engineering, project management and business know-how to be successful with more advanced technology. It is plain as day.
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post #284 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 07:29 AM
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283 posts comprised of many recitations of posts that got people banned from the Emo Lounge. As an owner's thread, it greatly lacks what many would consider to be the most important element in an owners thread; owners.

I bought one a few days ago. It will arrive on Wednesday. Until then, there ain't much I can add here. Others obviously are not constrained by this limitation.
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post #285 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bborzell View Post
283 posts comprised of many recitations of posts that got people banned from the Emo Lounge. As an owner's thread, it greatly lacks what many would consider to be the most important element in an owners thread; owners.

I bought one a few days ago. It will arrive on Wednesday. Until then, there ain't much I can add here. Others obviously are not constrained by this limitation.
My thoughts exactly. If I was to buy one of these units I am not sure I would want to post here. The level of feeling against the XMC-1 and Emotive makes me think that if I had anything positive to say about either, I would be called a "fanboy" or worse. Even this posting is likely to get some negative response(s).
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post #286 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 08:26 AM
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It isn't a matter of being positive or negative, it is a matter of being truthful and objective based on customer experiences and observation over time.

Very few posters here want Emotiva to fail. Rather, the vast majority of posters, myself included, want Emotiva to succeed. Any issues that Emotiva have are of their own making.

The problem is there is little objectivity at the manufacturer's sponsored forum. They simply can't handle any objective criticism particularly when they are called out for their own actions, misstatements and false promises. They have demonstrated that they do not really care to improve on their performance for discerning customers.

We all want to hear from objective reviewers about this product. However, when a so-called or self-proclaimed objective or independent reviewer deliberately conceals or minimizes their relationship with the manufacturer of the product, all objectivity is really lost and they can expect criticism.

Let's face it, this product has been many years in the making and their product pronouncements have set a very high bar of expectations, so expect a corresponding response when the product isn't "beyond expectations".
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post #287 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 08:36 AM
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I certainly want them to succeed but two things jump out at me: (1) lack of real transparency coupled with a dictatorial style on their forum; (2) suspicion that their product lacks some key features that given how long this product has been under development is quite disappointing. I am willing to be patient on item two until such time as I actually can confirm the facts from either Emotiva or my own trial.
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post #288 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by bborzell View Post
283 posts comprised of many recitations of posts that got people banned from the Emo Lounge. As an owner's thread, it greatly lacks what many would consider to be the most important element in an owners thread; owners.

I bought one a few days ago. It will arrive on Wednesday. Until then, there ain't much I can add here. Others obviously are not constrained by this limitation.
Please post your impressions of the XMC-1 when you've had it a few weeks. The negativity you mention is not for the products but for the manner in which Emotiva handles the information as they bring those products to market. I firmly believe they should not mention future products until shortly before it comes time to ship. Big Dan acts like a father hinting to his kids 2 months before Christmas with big hints of whats to come - then forgets Christmas altogether when it rolls around! Is it any wonder that the 'kids' get pissed off?

Maybe that isn't the best analogy - but its all I got at the moment.

I'm another one in the camp of hoping Emotiva is successful beyond their wilded hopes. I have a lot of Emotiva gear (two amps reference speakers and UMC-200 - nice unit for what it is too) and would hate to see them fail - I don't see that happening but you never know.
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post #289 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 08:45 AM
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Amen to that!
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post #290 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bborzell View Post
283 posts comprised of many recitations of posts that got people banned from the Emo Lounge. As an owner's thread, it greatly lacks what many would consider to be the most important element in an owners thread; owners.

I bought one a few days ago. It will arrive on Wednesday. Until then, there ain't much I can add here. Others obviously are not constrained by this limitation.
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My thoughts exactly. If I was to buy one of these units I am not sure I would want to post here. The level of feeling against the XMC-1 and Emotive makes me think that if I had anything positive to say about either, I would be called a "fanboy" or worse. Even this posting is likely to get some negative response(s).
This is a special situation. The XMC was vaporware for over 6 years. Once again, 6 years. With continued promises of it being released in a month or 2, and 2 major design changes in that time, completely starting over each time. It's not like an iPhone vs Galaxy fanboy war, which is just opinions on actual products. And it barely just started shipping, there aren't many owners that can even describe the box, yet.

Now that it is finally shipping, it will probably take a couple months for the obnoxious, sarcastic remarks about it to fade away. At least, if it is a quality product. By my count, this is Emotiva's 5th prepro. 2 of the others have been pretty solid (MMC, UMC-200), the other 2 plagued with issues (LMC, UMC-1). So let's say the XMC has a 50% chance of not pissing off early purchasers. Considering it doesn't even come with all its features installed, it's not looking good.

I don't know how I haven't been banned over there. I've ripped on a few people, which is what SHOULD be bannable. Meanwhile, others make comments about a product, and get banned for it. Backwards moderating at the Lounge, just adds to consumer annoyance. My 2 Emotiva amps are working great, I don't have much reason to post over there, anyway.
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post #291 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 10:27 AM
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With all of these missing features I think I'm missing the point of this big product release. Several features I was banking on are not even being delivered... Wtf?
Besides Dirac, what else is missing?
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post #292 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 11:27 AM
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Hi all, had a good nap so now ready to jump back in.


First, let me say I discovered Emotiva only last month when I purchased the UMC-200 and the corresponding amp (???-700). I made my purchase after coming to this forum to hear from owners, the good and the bad. I like professional reviews to get an overall opinion, but I really like to read what owners have to say about a product. I discovered the XMC on the Emotiva web site when I made my purchase so I have not been waiting for it for YEARS like others have.


I certainly understand the frustration that a lot of you feel in regards to this wait and all of the promises that have come and gone. And yes, the company seems to have been less than forthcoming through all of this. Anyway, when I became interested in the XMC, I discovered the other thread that I guess could be called the anticipation thread. That I saw quickly was nothing but complaints, valid as they may have been, about the product and company. Post after post after post saying the same thing over and over and over. If I learned one thing, Emotiva definitely needs a better PR and or information section to handle new and future equipment releases.


Then this thread was started, and I had hopes that soon I would be able to get some real info about the XMC. Ten pages later, it seems that the "anticipation thread" has moved here. Nothing here but how the XMC is crippled (no Dirac now but promised - I know where have we heard that before), how bad the company is, and how horrible a reviewer is because he did not identify himself as an Emotiva employee. These are ALL valid complaints and I understand them, but do we need to say them over and over and over? That is why I am not sure if I should even continue to come to this thread to get a fair evaluation of the product.


I like a good debate, to hear the pros and cons about a product before I make a purchase decision. My worry is that many people here have already decided that the XMC is no good and not worth bothering with. People seem to have already decided that Emotiva is a pack of liars and make promises they can't or will not keep. Is this an atmosphere in which both viewpoints can be fairly heard?


I certainly hope my impression is wrong and that once actual owners start posting here, a robust discussion will begin in regards to the XMC-1.


Regards to all.

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post #293 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 01:03 PM
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Besides Dirac, what else is missing?
Maybe independent gain & delay on 2 subs that are EQ'ed as a group (like Audyssey XT32). Instead, you have to do everything for 1 sub, or everything for stereo subs (with independent EQ). It's not crystal clear from the manual, though.
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post #294 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 02:04 PM
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Does anyone actually own the XMC-1 that's slamming the bass management already? After reading(not just skimming) the whole preliminary manual regarding audio modes and bass management, it's pretty clear the XMC-1 seems to have a pretty comprehensive 2 subwoofer setup(distance, crossover etc.). Also, as I understand when Dirac is released speaker setup will be automated and will be able to do 2 subs independently. I think some people are confusing Emotiva "recommendations" with what the XMC-1 speaker setup menu can actually do.


It's seems like there is also a total misunderstanding of the REF mode. This is meant to be the purest of the pure analog audiophile mode. 2ch balanced XLR source, balanced signal path through the preamp, balanced XLR preouts to a balanced XLR amp to complete a fully balanced signal from start to finish meant to be funneled through full range speakers. If you have all that balanced gear, that's what "REF" mode is capable of, if you don't have all that balanced gear you still get the purest signal path possible. This effectively makes the XMC-1 a legitimate double duty HT processor and audiophile caliber preamp.


Now its seems that at least one guy is slamming the XMC-1 for not including analog bass management like the XSP-1. While this makes the all analog XSP-1 pretty special, it could be argued by purists that processing the signal path for bass management even in an all analog domain is not considered a true "Audiophile" 2ch stereo. Furthermore, expecting the XMC-1 to have analog bass management in a "REFERENCE" mode and also be a home theater processor with traditional digital bass management and have Dirac all for 2K is unrealistic, does any processor at any price do that?
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post #295 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 02:15 PM
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After reading(not just skimming) the whole preliminary manual regarding audio modes and bass management, it's pretty clear the XMC-1 seems to have a pretty comprehensive 2 subwoofer setup(distance, crossover etc.).
Can you send the same mono signal to both subs and still adjust their levels and distance independently?

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post #296 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 02:22 PM
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Does anyone actually own the XMC-1 that's slamming the bass management already? After reading(not just skimming) the whole preliminary manual regarding audio modes and bass management, it's pretty clear the XMC-1 seems to have a pretty comprehensive 2 subwoofer setup(distance, crossover etc.).
So can you confirm or refute Igor's depiction of how subwoofers are handled by the XMX-1?

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post #297 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 02:59 PM
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Can you send the same mono signal to both subs and still adjust their levels and distance independently?

When my XMC-1 arrives this week I will definitely be taking a look at that. According to the manual the "mono" subwoofer setting will send a mono signal to both(2) subs. The menu tree in the preliminary manual is incomplete regarding the speaker/subwoofer setup so I don't know if in fact that 2 subs could be configured separately once "mono" is selected. Like everyone else I hope that the option to select and configure 2 subs even under the "mono" designation is still an option somewhere in the speaker setup menu.

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post #298 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 03:50 PM
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I don't know if in fact that 2 subs could be configured separately once "mono" is selected.
According to one of the moderators at their forum that has the unit: "Setting the XMC-1 to mono would be the same as using a "Y" splitter. This is just done internally."

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post #299 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Thunderduck View Post
***and how horrible a reviewer is because he did not identify himself as an Emotiva employee. These are ALL valid complaints and I understand them, but do we need to say them over and over and over?***
Actually, that one should absolutely be brought up every time the "reviewer" in question's name comes up in any context. Really just risible, shameful conduct worth of a virtual scarlet letter.

Sometimes sunlight is the best disinfectant.

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DS-21 is offline  
post #300 of 1284 Old 07-20-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by markus767 View Post
So can you confirm or refute Igor's depiction of how subwoofers are handled by the XMX-1?

No, I can't. But this is why I think that the XMC-1 is in fact capable of said bass management, i.e. 2 independent mono subs.


I'm basing my assumptions off the wording of the XMC-1 manual information only at this time. The information under page 20 Bass Management


If your XMC-1 is configured for a single subwoofer, all of the content intended for both subwoofers

will be summed into a single monaural subwoofer output signal, which will be available at both

subwoofer outputs. Therefore, a single subwoofer may be connected to either output.


I interpret this as meaning that the "mono" sub setting is selected and both sub outs are active and both are sending a mono signal.


Now on page 70


Note: The XMC-1 supports true 7.2 surround operation when used with two subwoofers. If you

choose to use only one subwoofer, connect it to the Left Channel subwoofer output.

Note: All balanced and unbalanced outputs are active at all times.


I interpret this as if you truly have only 1 sub configured that the left sub output is the proper connection.


So either these are completely contradictory statements regarding how the XMC-1 works or in fact it's configurable for 2 independent mono signal subs and the "mono" setting under the bass management menu means mono signal not one (1) sub hooked up.


This of course remains to be seen as actual users start getting their XMC-1's. If I'm wrong I guess the multi sub people will have a legitimate complaint.


Woo Hoo

Last edited by flyingshane; 07-20-2014 at 04:56 PM.
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