Emotiva XMC-1 Chat Thread: technical talk only please - Page 13 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #361 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 04:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
No, it doesn't. How can it, considering it never even pings them as a unit?

As it stands right now, the best way to handle multiple subwoofers (regardless of distance, and for that matter regardless of room correction system) is to route the LCR channel and LFE preouts into a DSP controller with matrix routing (such as the miniDSP 8x8/10x10HD) and manually EQ based on your own measurements.

Unfortunately, there's no AVR that handles multisubs thoughtfully, a la Harman's SoundField Management or Dr. Earl Geddes' proprietary subwoofer optimizer. All of them have multisub management that's a hackish kludge at best.



Probably, but it doesn't matter. The audible consequence will be nil.
For clarification, XT32 does ping the subs as a 'unit'. It first pings Sub 1 and measures its level and distance (delay). Then it does the same for Sub 2. And finally it pings the combined Sub1 and Sub2. In this way SubEQ HT (to use the proper name - it is separate from XT32 but usually included with it) sets the level and delays individually for each sub, but then EQs them as a pair, which is what is wanted of course.

What SUBEQ HT does not do at any time is to measure the combined response of the subs and the mains. This can then sometimes result in the delays being sub-optimal and having to be refined manually, using REW or similar to do so.

However, unless Emo can do a FW update to fix their bass management issue, Audyssey's method is still far more preferable.
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post #362 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 05:53 AM
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^Keith,

My understanding is that Audyssey's sub EQ HT method would work for the subs if positioned in the room either as symmetrical or asymmetrical locations. This offers a lot of flexibility in placement to smooth out the bass in the room.

What I don't understand is how Dirac REQ does their sub eq with multiple units? I assumed Dirac was similar to Audyssey where it pings each sub individually then combined for bass management.

If the XMC-1 doesn't have proper multiple sub management, it's going to need additional sub management feature via the MiniDSP 2x4, USB microphone, REW and associated accessories + learning curve. People might want to take this into consideration when purchasing the XMC-1.

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post #363 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 05:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
^Keith,

My understanding is that Audyssey's sub EQ HT method would work for the subs if positioned in the room either as symmetrical or asymmetrical locations. This offers a lot of flexibility in placement to smooth out the bass in the room.
Yes. That is correct. Because each sub is measured independently for level and delay (and then both are EQd as a pair), Sub-EQ HT can cater for subs which are dissimilarly located. The only issue that arises, which can be corrected, is that sometimes the delays need to be tweaked in order to optimise response around the XO region (splice).

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What I don't understand is how Dirac REQ does their sub eq with multiple units? I assumed Dirac was similar to Audyssey where it pings each sub individually then combined for bass management.
I don't know. My knowledge of Dirac is scant at this time. And I have held off from trying to learn much about it since the XMC-1 will use a proprietary version of Dirac (LE) which may or may not have any similarities with other versions. Until Emo implement their version we can only speculate on it.

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If the XMC-1 doesn't have proper multiple sub management, it's going to need additional sub management feature via the MiniDSP 2x4, USB microphone, REW and associated accessories + learning curve. People might want to take this into consideration when purchasing the XMC-1.
Agreed.
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post #364 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 07:20 AM
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Will any of the AVS Forum staff be receiving a review unit?
I signed up for the preorder but never got my email: at this point I will wait.

I asked Mark (imagic)if he or Scott Wilkinson would request one for review...he said yes if there was enough interest...I assured him there is strong interest.
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post #365 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
^Keith,

My understanding is that Audyssey's sub EQ HT method would work for the subs if positioned in the room either as symmetrical or asymmetrical locations. This offers a lot of flexibility in placement to smooth out the bass in the room.

What I don't understand is how Dirac REQ does their sub eq with multiple units? I assumed Dirac was similar to Audyssey where it pings each sub individually then combined for bass management.

If the XMC-1 doesn't have proper multiple sub management, it's going to need additional sub management feature via the MiniDSP 2x4, USB microphone, REW and associated accessories + learning curve. People might want to take this into consideration when purchasing the XMC-1.
Some subs with digital processing implement the phase knob as a digital delay, and will allow you to set delay at the sub. (I know Rythmik does this.) Not as convenient as setting it at the receiver, but more convenient than inserting a MiniDSP.

Hopefully, the XMC-1 makes this inconvenience unnecessary if you want to EQ your subs as a group but with independent time alignment. Hard to say, based on the manual, but it looks like it might not.

I'm not aware of any Dirac features for independent delay but shared EQ of subs. For my Dirac Live on PC, I have a single subwoofer channel from the 7.1 PC source, and all the bass management (crossover, dual sub gain/delay) happen in my receiver post-Dirac.
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post #366 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
However, unless Emo can do a FW update to fix their bass management issue, Audyssey's method is still far more preferable.
For those new to this thread, can you explain/clarify the bass management issue again?

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post #367 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 08:13 AM
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^I am also interested in this answer. For HT use only what exactly is the drawback for anyone other than a setup with more than one sub and with at least one of them co-located? In my setup I currently have dual subs both equidistant from my MLP using a mono signal. I do not have Audyssey Sub EQ HT in my current AVR and the bass response in my room is very good without it. My next upgrade will either be an AVR with XT32 and Sub EQ HT or possibly the XMC-1 once Dirac is released.

I am thinking in my setup it is a non-issue but for those that require it what pre-pro options (outside of those with Audyssey) exist that offer this capability built in?

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post #368 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jdskycaster View Post
^I am also interested in this answer. For HT use only what exactly is the drawback for anyone other than a setup with more than one sub and with at least one of them co-located? In my setup I currently have dual subs both equidistant from my MLP using a mono signal. I do not have Audyssey Sub EQ HT in my current AVR and the bass response in my room is very good without it. My next upgrade will either be an AVR with XT32 and Sub EQ HT or possibly the XMC-1 once Dirac is released.

I am thinking in my setup it is a non-issue but for those that require it what pre-pro options (outside of those with Audyssey) exist that offer this capability built in?

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post #369 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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For those new to this thread, can you explain/clarify the bass management issue again?
It's been explained a few times just a few posts back.
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post #370 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 09:45 AM
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I would be interested in your explanation of how Audyssey falls short of the Geddes subwoofer placement approach or the Harmon subwoofer placement approach.
Audyssey can't fall short of a subwoofer placement approach, because you can place your subs any way you want. But what Audyssey doesn't have is a pre-equalization step to improve seat-to-seat consistency, which is what Harman does with their SoundField Management algorithm.

One of the biggest problems with equalization is that fixing a problem in one seat (3dB peak at 100Hz) can end up creating a problem in another seat (3dB dip at 100Hz). SFM looks at measurements of each sub from each seat to see how much spatial variance there is from seat to seat. It then calculates the amount of delay, level adjustment and a single band of PEQ for each sub that will maximize seat-to-seat consistency when all the subs are combined.

Understand that the goal is not to improve the bass response (that comes later) but to make it the same in every seat. It doesn't matter if the response is still crappy, as long as it is the same crappy in every seat. Of course, as a side effect of improving consistency, the response will often get a little smoother, but that's not what SFM is trying to do. Once it has maximized seat-to-seat consistency (same peaks & dips in all seats), the equalization step can be done, knowing that improving the sound in one seat will yield similar benefits in all seats.

It makes no sense to fault Audyssey for not having this pre-EQ step when none of the other room correction systems have this step either (Dirac, Trinnov, YPAO, MCACC, etc). Also, if all you care about is a single seat, then this type of pre-EQ algorithm isn't useful for your needs.

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post #371 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 10:05 AM
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This thread could provide some answers on the XMC-1 implementation details : otivalounge.proboards.com/thread/37957/xmc-1-inside-tips-discussion
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post #372 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 11:08 AM
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I signed up for the preorder but never got my email: at this point I will wait.

I asked Mark (imagic)if he or Scott Wilkinson would request one for review...he said yes if there was enough interest...I assured him there is strong interest.
update

Mark (imagic) and Scott have requested a review sample....

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post #373 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 11:13 AM
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I signed up for the preorder but never got my email: at this point I will wait.

I asked Mark (imagic) if he or Scott Wilkinson would request one for review...he said yes if there was enough interest...I assured him there is strong interest.
I'd love to see Keith, or Markus, or Roger (Dressler) review one.
...The XMC-1 Dirac-less, and then three to six months from now, maybe, just maybe, with Dirac.
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post #374 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 12:49 PM
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I'd love to see Keith, or Markus, or Roger (Dressler) review one.
...The XMC-1 Dirac-less, and then three to six months from now, maybe, just maybe, with Dirac.
Just send me one

This time I'll probably pass the opportunity to be a beta tester for another Emotiva product that I have to pay full price out of my own pocket. The admission fee of $2000 seems a bit high if Emotiva handles bugs I'll find the same way they did in the past: no fix necessary - device works-as-designed™

Quite honestly, Atmos is more interesting to me than anything the XMC-1 has to offer.
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post #375 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 01:48 PM
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It amazes me reading over at the Lounge how even after knowledgeable members post the issues the XMC-1 has with bass management (per the manual) how the pro Emotiva members try to claim there isn't an issue. Some have even mentioned adding additional hardware to do BM properly. One member posted how it doesn't matter to him as his subs are optimally located. At this point with no Dirac onbaoard and possible BM issues the XMC-1 is no different than the UMC-1 or the UMC-200.

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post #376 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 01:51 PM
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It amazes me reading over at the Lounge how even after knowledgeable members post the issues the XMC-1 has with bass management (per the manual) how the pro Emotiva members try to claim there isn't an issue. Some have even mentioned adding additional hardware to do BM properly. One member posted how it doesn't matter to him as his subs are optimally located. At this point with no Dirac onbaoard and possible BM issues the XMC-1 is no different than the UMC-1 or the UMC-200.

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post #377 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 02:03 PM
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Just send me one

This time I'll probably pass the opportunity to be a beta tester for another Emotiva product that I have to pay full price out of my own pocket. The admission fee of $2000 seems a bit high if Emotiva handles bugs I'll find the same way they did in the past: no fix necessary - device works-as-designed™

Quite honestly, Atmos is more interesting to me than anything the XMC-1 has to offer.
If I was your employer, if you were my employee; I would absolutely purchase one for you to exclusively review it.
...No doubt about it as I know that you're one of the most calibrated, most methodical, with measurements, graphs, ...deep inside the most important technical aspects of sound hound and proper room acoustics, one of the most serious audio scientific reviewers around the entire AVS Forum website.

And furthermore, I highly encourage AVS directing management to purchase one just for you to review.
It would be in the best interest of the entire "surround" community.
And AVS would not lose a single nickel financially as they, or would simply keep it for themselves (one very happy AVS staff member), or they would resale it for a profit; if they wish too, as the word would spread on the XMC-1 sound quality superiority.

And that, is intelligent thinking in the provided benefit of all.
Markus, you are a precious asset to our audio community. ...No mincing words here; that, is a fact.

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post #378 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 02:10 PM
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...Keith (Barnes) and Roger (Dressler) too.

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post #379 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
It amazes me reading over at the Lounge how even after knowledgeable members post the issues the XMC-1 has with bass management (per the manual) how the pro Emotiva members try to claim there isn't an issue. Some have even mentioned adding additional hardware to do BM properly. One member posted how it doesn't matter to him as his subs are optimally located. At this point with no Dirac onbaoard and possible BM issues the XMC-1 is no different than the UMC-1 or the UMC-200.

Bill
The usual schtick with the Emovites is that if a unit doesn't do something, it is an unimportant thing that it doesn't do. And if something doesn't work the way one would expect, then it is "an intentional design feature". We've seen this so often now. Example: when I was bemoaning the fact that the XMC-1 didn't have Atmos, Atmos was "a gimmick" and "not needed or wanted". As soon as Emo hinted that they might add Atmos to their lineup at some stage, suddenly Atmos becomes a really great thing, a cool idea etc. Their emotional attachment blinds them to reality. As they say, Bill, love is blind....
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post #380 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Audyssey can't fall short of a subwoofer placement approach, because you can place your subs any way you want. But what Audyssey doesn't have is a pre-equalization step to improve seat-to-seat consistency, which is what Harman does with their SoundField Management algorithm.
Audyssey can't do that BUT if you have enough subs (and enough time, patience and measuring tools), you can do quite well at getting reasonable seat to seat consistency, at least if you only have one row of seats.

That may or may not be true in all rooms but it was in my last room and is in this room. Perfect? No. But more than acceptable. (I have 4 identical subs - Seaton SubMersives).

While a bit off topic, the issue I have had in any HT I have been in (mine included) is the proximity to the surrounds. That much more than inconsistent seat-to-seat bass response does much more to mess up the theater experience.

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post #381 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Audyssey can't do that BUT if you have enough subs (and enough time, patience and measuring tools), you can do quite well at getting reasonable seat to seat consistency, at least if you only have one row of seats.
Sure, placement alone can yield reasonable consistency, but DS-21 was talking about doing even better by supplementing placement with electronics and an optimization algorithm.

Speaking of improving seat-to-seat consistency, here are a couple of measurements posted by Todd Welti (of Harman) last month in the DIY section of this forum:

1 sub in 1 corner measured at 16 seats (blue traces) and average (red trace).


4 subs in 4 corners measured at 16 seats (blue traces) and average (red trace).

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post #382 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The usual schtick with the Emovites is that if a unit doesn't do something, it is an unimportant thing that it doesn't do. Example: when I was bemoaning the fact that the XMC-1 didn't have Atmos, Atmos was "a gimmick" and "not needed or wanted". As soon as Emo hinted that they might add Atmos to their lineup at some stage, suddenly Atmos becomes a really great thing, a cool idea etc.
Yup, went from zero to hero as soon as Lonnie posted they were working on it.
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post #383 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 04:57 PM
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update

Mark (imagic) and Scott have requested a review sample....
This is why AVS is the best thing going for audio and video. Scott and Mark are great additions. This is NOT a paid endorsement:-)
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post #384 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Not to mention that the 8801 has proper bass management.
Can you clarify (as I never had units with SubEQ HT)... Can you manually adjust two subs and then run XT32, or it can only been done automatically if room-eq calibration is run? Will it keep the (manually set) difference in distance after the XT32 calibration is done?
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post #385 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
...I'm not aware of any Dirac features for independent delay but shared EQ of subs. For my Dirac Live on PC, I have a single subwoofer channel from the 7.1 PC source, and all the bass management (crossover, dual sub gain/delay) happen in my receiver post-Dirac.
Thanks for your insight on Dirac.

So the full version of Dirac on the PC, there is only one sub channel that is room equalized by the software? I.e. Dirac doesn't do multiple sub set-ups.

If the full version of Dirac doesn't have multiple sub set-ups, I can't see how the LE version of Dirac in XMC-1 would.

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post #386 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks for your insight on Dirac.

So the full version of Dirac on the PC, there is only one sub channel that is room equalized by the software? I.e. Dirac doesn't do multiple sub set-ups.

If the full version of Dirac doesn't have multiple sub set-ups, I can't see how the LE version of Dirac in XMC-1 would.
As song as you can adjust level, phase etc for each sub independently you should EQ the pair as one after that.

That is how the others do it.
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post #387 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Thanks for your insight on Dirac.

So the full version of Dirac on the PC, there is only one sub channel that is room equalized by the software? I.e. Dirac doesn't do multiple sub set-ups.

If the full version of Dirac doesn't have multiple sub set-ups, I can't see how the LE version of Dirac in XMC-1 would.
I haven't tried to do multiple subs within Dirac, but here's my understanding of how it works in Dirac Live for PC:
You can have up to 8 channels that default to a 7.1 setup. So, you could also do 5.2, and be within the 8 channel limit. Then, you would have 2 subs with independent EQ. You can link the sub channels for a shared target curve, but I didn't see anything about shared EQ.


Dirac itself doesn't do any bass management. That would need to happen before or after Dirac processing. If you do it before or after with 7.1, then you effectively get shared EQ. In my case, I'm doing it after in the receiver, so my subs get the .1 LFE + bass from the 7. My receiver mixes that mono and sends it to the subs with independent gain and delay, like most receivers with 2 sub outs.


Based on what I have read, the XMC-1 Dirac appears to allow up to 7.2. Maybe they added something for shared EQ of subs?
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post #388 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 08:20 PM
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post #389 of 2133 Old 07-22-2014, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
It amazes me reading over at the Lounge how even after knowledgeable members post the issues the XMC-1 has with bass management (per the manual) how the pro Emotiva members try to claim there isn't an issue. Some have even mentioned adding additional hardware to do BM properly. One member posted how it doesn't matter to him as his subs are optimally located. At this point with no Dirac onbaoard and possible BM issues the XMC-1 is no different than the UMC-1 or the UMC-200.

Bill
Well the XMC-1 has that nice OLED display, some XLR connections on the rear and is decked out in black trim. At least it is more dressed up and more modular in design. The analog specs look a little better too.

Last edited by xcapri79; 07-22-2014 at 08:49 PM.
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post #390 of 2133 Old 07-23-2014, 04:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
Can you clarify (as I never had units with SubEQ HT)... Can you manually adjust two subs and then run XT32, or it can only been done automatically if room-eq calibration is run? Will it keep the (manually set) difference in distance after the XT32 calibration is done?
If you make any settings in the AVR which affect the subs - distance, levels etc - then they will be ignored and overwritten by Audyssey during the calibration. All that Sub-EQ HT does is measure the levels and distances of each sub independently, before then EQing the combined response of the two subs together. My experience has been that XT32/Sub-EQ HT does a good job of this with one exception: because Audyssey never measures the combined response of the mains and the subs together, it often fails to optimize the response around the splice. Usually this can be fixed by manually setting the sub delays after calibration (see the Sub Distance Tweak Guide linked in my sig for how - REW or similar required).
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