Emotiva XMC-1 Chat Thread: technical talk only please - Page 17 - AVS Forum

AVS Forum > Audio > Receivers, Amps, and Processors > Emotiva XMC-1 Chat Thread: technical talk only please

Receivers, Amps, and Processors

audioguy's Avatar audioguy
09:22 AM Liked: 312
post #481 of 1901
07-25-2014 | Posts: 3,514
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Keith: for the most part I agree with your assessment. Not having heard the posters old and new system, I can not comment. There may be one thing that could be improved and that is how well the XMC does at improving envelopment (steering). That may or may not be the case with the current surround sound technology.

I previously switched from a very high end Meridian SSP to a Theta Casablanca, and the only improvement I could detect was that sense of envelopment (purely subjective and not blind but others heard the same thing). When I upgrade my Casablanca to the CB II, it improved even more - again subjectively. (these were in the days before digital room correction was generally available but I had 3 SigTech units that corrected a 5.1 system.)

That said, it is possible I think that, the XMC improved on this (or some other)element of sound reproduction when compared to his previous unit.

I am on the list and eventually will be able to demo this for myself. The above notwithstanding, without Dirac, I expect zero improvement - and with Dirac I expect, at most, very very very minor improvement (if any).

I have a very finely tuned Audyssey Pro setup in a well treated and dedicated room. I will be more than flabbergasted if this new product, even with Dirac, is much if any improvement over what I already have --- but I REALLY do hope I'm wrong.
bborzell's Avatar bborzell
09:23 AM Liked: 57
post #482 of 1901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
One doesn't have to be an owner to contribute to the thread. A Moderator has already confirmed that, so that comment of yours is not relevant to anything.

If you see contrary viewpoint to your own as 'bashing' then there is nothing I can do about that. My views are as valid as anyone's and the post you are referencing contained a factual list of issues with the XMC-1.

I enjoy a very good relationship with the Lounge as it happens and have been posting there quite regularly lately. Again, it is irrelevant.

If you wish to report my earlier post for Moderation, please do so. But your irrelevant and off-topic comments are not achieving a thing. Self-styled Moderators are almost always ignored at AVS, and rightly so IMO.
It is true that owning an XMC-1 should not be the price for admission to this thread. But, starting a thread seeking to gather information about a new piece of audio equipment with an already preconceived notion of something you have never seen, touched or operated without even the slightest hint of an open mind is baiting, at best.

If this "Owners Thread" is the best that AVS can provide to prospective buyers of the XMC-1, then I would suggest to anyone seeking pre purchase information to look elsewhere. This thread was obviously created to perpetuate a long standing bias against this product from a foundation devoid of a single factual experience with it.

Anyone who has a particular question about my experience with this pre-pro is free to PM me and I will try to answer to the best of my ability; but I will not participate any further in this ill conceived, anything but "Official" thread.
thrillcat's Avatar thrillcat
09:23 AM Liked: 110
post #483 of 1901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I was countering Knucklehead's exuberant remark that Emo have 'hit a home run'.
So you're putting words in Knucklehead's mouth? Knucklehead said that he hopes Emotiva have hit a home run, not that they have. It's a little early for anyone to claim this as a home run, but it's definitely anyone's right to hope that it proves to be a home run. It's also in your right to hope it's NOT a home run. Just please don't misrepresent other AVS members.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
09:24 AM Liked: 2163
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Post deleted. It was being typed as Mark issued his warning which I hadn't seen until I hit 'submit'.

Mud, I have copied it to you as a PM. Ignore it, reply to it, whatever, as you see fit. No worries.
67jason's Avatar 67jason
09:24 AM Liked: 794
post #485 of 1901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillcat View Post
My first point would be that Keith tends to post the same thing every 10-15 posts on here. Yes, they are valid points, but his sole intent with creating this thread is to drive home what the XMC-1 does NOT have, not what it DOES have.

As for your post, I reformatted to make it easier to address.

• Just because an entry level AVR has a feature doesn't mean it needs to be in a $2000 processor. I wouldn't expect the XMC-1 to offer a "Jazz Club" DSP mode, even though most entry level AVRs have it. the things i mentioned have nothing to do with jazz club dsp's. they are useful in fully integrating my current set up to the xmc-1 if i chose to buy one. many comparable in price and quality units are out there on the market that do incorporate the above features.
• This is a great feature for those who want it. For me, the XMC-1 would be in a dedicated theater where I don't listen to music, so it's not a big deal. For MANY looking at a $2000+ processor, my situation would apply. I have a separate system where I listen to music. many many people integrate their two channel listening into thier HT's for a variety of reasons. i fall into this category myself. and by all accounts the xmc-1 is supposed to be a "reference" component, why can it not play my flac files that i have painstakingly ripped from my many hundreds of cds? $300 avr's can.
• I have four source components connected in my theater. Each of them is capable of streaming from the internet. I don't need my processor to duplicate features. in this day an age many devices do duplicate streaming features, and to be fair internet streaming is the least important missing feature for me, but being able to stream from my local network would be nice especially since i would have to come up with a different solution from my current usb hard drive to play my flac files.
• The app is being developed. Seems to be functionally complete or near complete, and in the graphic design phase. good news, but how quickly many seem to forget emotiva's missed released dates...how long was the xmc-1 supposed to be "coming soon" 5 years? 6? i am not holding my breath on any updates for the xmc-1 based on the track record emotiva has set to date surrounding the xmc-1. if it is released in a timely manner as suggested then you can call me pleasantly surprised.
• The value is absolutely there for me, and for many other potential customers. And I'm not discounting your opinion, but you have to realize that many people shopping for a product like this, it absolutely offers a fantastic value. Great sound (I haven't heard it yet, but reports point to great sound) and not all the whiz bang features that many/most buyers would never use. I've had AVRs with apps built-in. Never used them. I've had AVRs with app control. Tried it out, never really used them. I've had AVRs that would stream audio from my network and/or the internet. Never used that feature. "great sound" is subjective, and unless there is an issue with the xmc-1 i dont expect it to "sound" any different or better then other competently designed avr's/processors. i just feel at this time that it is lacking and many many people would be better served with a different processor at the heart of their systems. both the denon 4520 and marantz 8801 are comparable in price and quality as far as i am concerned and due to their feature sets offer to my eye a better value at this time. the biggest thing that would have set the xmc-1 apart is dirac, and it doesn't have it. i am not counting on it ever having it. if it does get it then you can call me pleasantly surprised.

If these are features that you have to have, then the value is absolutely not there for you, but for most of the market the value is there. i seriously question that the value is there for most statement. how do you know? the faithful on their forum is only a small minority of mid and high end avr/processor purchasers. once you get down to it and realize what the xmc-1 lacks compared to the myriad of options available to the consumer, i think many smart shoppers will choose another direction. but if the xmc-1 satisfies ones needs, more power to you. i am just really disappointed in it at this time. competitor options have more of the things i would like in my processor and i was really looking forward to dirac.
comments in red.

and please dont take my comments the wrong way. the xmc-1 does seem like a solid peice of kit, but "beyond expectations" it is not for me at this time. i will continue to follow this thread. and assuming dirac is released within the 60 day window emotiva announced i will evaluate my purchase of it more thoroughly. but what it currently lacks based on what i would like to have, there is no value for me.

kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
09:28 AM Liked: 2163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdcinc View Post
You do seem to emphasize twice the price & two grand - and "SQ will be as good as any other unit from any reputable manufacturer, but at twice the price. "

Many of us are getting in for $1200 & anyone can get in for $1500, and for that price - it really does seem like a good deal.

(Full disclosure: I have the UMC-1 & would not recommend it.)
I thought the price to anyone who didn't have a discount card was $1,999?
chalugadp's Avatar chalugadp
09:29 AM Liked: 1168
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Some people are just looking for a pre/pro that has manual peq, balanced xlr, and clean sound. No avr under 2 k that I know of has manual peq. If I want to set it and forget it hoping audyssey put it the way I want then I would buy a cheap avr.

This isn't a product for the masses. Most have crappy speakers and don't care like we do on this forum. After another five or six reviews we will get a sense of the quality. For those posting a review please state what your previous system was. When they say its better or worse u want to know from what.
67jason's Avatar 67jason
09:30 AM Liked: 794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I thought the price to anyone who didn't have a discount card was $1,999?
you are correct with the $1999 price.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
09:31 AM Liked: 2163
post #489 of 1901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bborzell View Post
It is true that owning an XMC-1 should not be the price for admission to this thread. But, starting a thread seeking to gather information about a new piece of audio equipment with an already preconceived notion of something you have never seen, touched or operated without even the slightest hint of an open mind is baiting, at best.

If this "Owners Thread" is the best that AVS can provide to prospective buyers of the XMC-1, then I would suggest to anyone seeking pre purchase information to look elsewhere. This thread was obviously created to perpetuate a long standing bias against this product from a foundation devoid of a single factual experience with it.

Anyone who has a particular question about my experience with this pre-pro is free to PM me and I will try to answer to the best of my ability; but I will not participate any further in this ill conceived, anything but "Official" thread.
Maybe I should ask a Moderator to lock and/or delete this thread so that a new one can be started afresh now that units are beginning to appear.

If people think that's a good idea, I have no objection to it at all.

For information, I am not biased against Emotiva or even the XMC-1. I just don't think it is a very good unit for the money.
pdcinc
09:36 AM Liked: 16
post #490 of 1901
07-25-2014 | Posts: 29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I thought the price to anyone who didn't have a discount card was $1,999?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post
you are correct with the $1999 price.
Not entirely correct, as I believe e-club members receive a 20% discount.

(So that makes it 1600 vice the 1500 I said earlier.)
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
09:37 AM Liked: 2163
post #491 of 1901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Some people are just looking for a pre/pro that has manual peq, balanced xlr, and clean sound. No avr under 2 k that I know of has manual peq. If I want to set it and forget it hoping audyssey put it the way I want then I would buy a cheap avr.

This isn't a product for the masses. Most have crappy speakers and don't care like we do on this forum. After another five or six reviews we will get a sense of the quality. For those posting a review please state what your previous system was. When they say its better or worse u want to know from what.
Good points. But you can add manual PEQ to any system for 50 bucks with a secondhand Behringer. Admittedly only two channels though, but it's bass where it is needed most. Or of course, for rather more one can add a miniDSP 10x10 and have PEQ and much more - no need to change one's processor to get PEQ.

Balanced XLRs are only of benefit if you have very long cable runs and electrical interference on them and contribute nothing to SQ otherwise.

All modern units of reasonable quality - evben entry level - deliver "clean sound".
thrillcat's Avatar thrillcat
09:40 AM Liked: 110
post #492 of 1901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 67jason View Post
comments in red.

and please dont take my comments the wrong way. the xmc-1 does seem like a solid peice of kit, but "beyond expectations" it is not for me at this time. i will continue to follow this thread. and assuming dirac is released within the 60 day window emotiva announced i will evaluate my purchase of it more thoroughly. but what it currently lacks based on what i would like to have, there is no value for me.
I am not trying to argue, I said in my post that it may absolutely not be of value for you because of the issues you stated, and that's great. However, for many, the 'issues' you state, or as I would simply put it, omitted features, are not a do or die for us. I'd much rather purchase something that was built by hand in the US that leaves out several features that are of little or no value to me than buy something that was put together by a machine in another country and includes a whole bunch of stuff I don't need.

Now, if they had left off something I really wanted/cared about (as they have from your perspective), I would not be interested in the XMC.

Different people have different needs/wants, and the XMC-1 will fit many users' needs perfectly. Others, not so much. I respect your viewpoint, and I respect the way you stated why it doesn't fit YOUR needs. I respect the fact that you didn't make a blanket statement that it's not good enough for anyone and nobody that has any sense would buy one.

As for "Beyond Expectations", well, that's a marketing slogan. I don't really put a lot of thought into anything that comes out of a marketing department. Why? Because I work in marketing.

"Stunning audio and video innovations"
"state-of-the-art"
"Stay IN-Command of the future"
"amazing sound and picture quality"
"instantly streamed"
"Innovation at it's best"

These are all marketing statements taken from a single page at Denon's website. So, perhaps I should start a Denon thread complaining that when I hit a button on my Denon AVR to watch a movie from the Netflix app, it's not 'instantly streamed' like the website says. It takes at least 5 seconds before it starts playing. They said it would be instant, which means the nanosecond I press that button, it should start streaming.

No, it's marketing. Take it with a grain of salt. Who's expectations are they talking about? It's a vague statement made to evoke a feeling. This is not a claim. Bringing up that statement is ridiculous and in my opinion discredits anyone who does so. Sorry.
markrubin's Avatar markrubin
09:42 AM Liked: 489
post #493 of 1901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Maybe I should ask a Moderator to lock and/or delete this thread so that a new one can be started afresh now that units are beginning to appear.

If people think that's a good idea, I have no objection to it at all.

For information, I am not biased against Emotiva or even the XMC-1. I just don't think it is a very good unit for the money.
I suggest a new thread be started by an owner who has a unit in hand: this is not working
Noman74656's Avatar Noman74656
09:48 AM Liked: 43
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There is potential, and that is undeniable until several reviews are out. Everything regarding whether it is a great system or not is here-say until then.

I think it could be a great system, for me, for the money.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
10:25 AM Liked: 2163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bborzell View Post
Well, I am hardly an Emotiva "insider"; rather someone who signed up for the XMC-1 on the same day I ordered my UMC-1 several years ago. But, mine arrived yesterday and has been in my system since 6 pm last evening.
How about you starting an owner's thread? I've asked Mark to delete this one or at least lock it, or whatever he thinks is best.

As you have a unit in your system, you’d be a clear candidate for a new thread?
bborzell's Avatar bborzell
10:28 AM Liked: 57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
How about you starting an owner's thread? I've asked Mark to delete this one or at least lock it, or whatever he thinks is best.

As you have a unit in your system, you’d be a clear candidate for a new thread?
Mark has contacted me about starting a new thread. I have agreed to do so.
markrubin's Avatar markrubin
10:30 AM Liked: 489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bborzell View Post
Mark has contacted me about starting a new thread. I have agreed to do so.
yes please do: it will be an owners only thread: make the first post your review please

this one will be renamed and left open for chat
MUDCAT45's Avatar MUDCAT45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bborzell View Post
Mark has contacted me about starting a new thread. I have agreed to do so.
I wish you the best of luck with that thread.
It would be nice to have some constraints. Maybe no comments about what is missing if it has been discussed numerous times on your thread or in other threads. No discussion about the ethics of Emo employees. No mention of how long it took to get to market.
Again, I wish you the best of luck.
MUDCAT45's Avatar MUDCAT45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
yes please do: it will be an owners only thread: make the first post your review please

this one will be renamed and left open for chat
All chat and no CHIT .
Thanks Mark.
markrubin's Avatar markrubin
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this thread has been renamed

link to owner's only thread
Emotiva XMC-1 Owners Only Thread

if you wish to post there as a guest or expert, please PM me: posts may be moderated i.e. they go to a moderation Q and have to be approved before they appear: OK to post questions to owners

at any rate it is up to individual members to maintain Forum Decorum....
cap'n's Avatar cap'n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
I agree that a system allowing variation of gains of individual subwoofer amp channels will be optimum from the point of view of response flatness and consistency of bass response at multiple listening positions when the positions of the subwoofers are fixed. However, it's not true that a system having a wide variation of subwoofer channel gains will be optimum from the point of view of maximum output level. Consider this graphic:



In configuration (b), the subwoofer channel gains are 0 dB, -6 dB, -6 dB and -12 dB, and the mean output level is -17 dB. In configuration (c), the subwoofer channel gains are 0 dB, 0 dB, 0 dB and -6 dB and the mean output level is -7.6 dB, an improvement of almost 10 dB. The SFM algorithm AFAIK only optimizes the mean spatial variance, a measure of the seat-to-seat variation of frequency response. Configuration (c) is kind of like the "holy grail", for which the configuration that minimizes mean spatial variance also results in greatly improved output level, and in this case, much flatter frequency response in the absence of global EQ as well. Systems with widely varying sub channel gains (assuming identical subs and sub amps) are compromised from the point of view of maximum output.
Hi andyc56, i would caution about drawing any conclusion from one example. One thing i have learned from researching speaker/room mode interaction is that is it complicated. Especially since the seats are not filling the room but are in a particular area. it is certainly possible that if you reduce the gain of one subwoofer, the sound power put into the room is less, but you are in effect moving what sound power there is to where the seats happen to be. I can imagine a case where the seats are located off the room center node of a first order axial mode (i.e. away from the deadspot). With 2 subs at either end of the room at equal gains, the mode would be cancelled meaning less sound pressure at that seat at that frequency. Lowering the gain of one sub would then effectively be "un-cancelling" the mode and resulting in more output at the frequency at those seats. Presumably this level adjustment would be part of SFM optimization and would have broadband benefits in terms of seat to seat consistancy. On a larger scale, if you have multiple subs at different locations in a room at equal gains, they are as likely to be out of phase as in phase for a given mode. If they are in phase, reducing the gain of one would only moderately reduce the overall energy in the mode. If the subs are out of phase, i.e. cancelling, reducing the gain of one would have a much larger effect. These relative differences would depend on where the seats are.

Does that make sense (it is early here and I have only had one cup of coffee...)?
IgorZep's Avatar IgorZep
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Maybe no comments about what is missing if it has been discussed numerous times on your thread or in other threads.
It was the repetitive comments about missing dual-sub bass management that made this issue noted by the Emotiva and we have a promise now it will be implemented (hopefully correctly with right flexibility and the process of configuring it). So, as long, as those comments are constructive , they are for good for anyone, including, in the first place, the happy owners, and increasing a value and reasons to have this piece of hardware at home (so - profit for Emotiva in the return).
andyc56's Avatar andyc56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cap'n View Post
Does that make sense (it is early here and I have only had one cup of coffee...)?
Thanks Todd. Yes, it makes sense. I keep getting into the mode of thinking in terms of target curves, but as you mention in your paper, SFM doesn't deal in target curves, but in optimization of other metrics. So I was implicitly assuming the absence of a suckout due to cancellation of subwoofer pressure contributions having nearly equal amplitude, but out of phase. An optimizer based on target curves would end up rejecting such a potential solution.
Bill Mac's Avatar Bill Mac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
It shifts to PCM because the 4311 EDID tells the Oppo it cannot accept DSD. The XMC-1 will tell the Oppo it can accept DSD, so it will play through unaltered.
Roger,

Actually the 4311 can accept DSD. The reason why the Oppo 103 defaults to PCM is because I use the HDMI 1 output so it will automatically default to PCM. HDMI 1 will not output DSD so if you want DSD via HDMI you have to use HDMI 2. I use PCM to gain the use of BM and Audyssey for multichannel SACDs. The 4311 as well as other Denon AVRs has low LFE output when using DSD. This is a known bug where the LFE level is about 10dB lower than when PCM is used.

Bill
Bill Mac's Avatar Bill Mac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
move on NOW: I am tired of this

if you don't a thread ban will be issued: no other warning
Mark,

Thank you!

Bill
lbrown105's Avatar lbrown105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Good points. But you can add manual PEQ to any system for 50 bucks with a secondhand Behringer. Admittedly only two channels though, but it's bass where it is needed most. Or of course, for rather more one can add a miniDSP 10x10 and have PEQ and much more - no need to change one's processor to get PEQ.

Balanced XLRs are only of benefit if you have very long cable runs and electrical interference on them and contribute nothing to SQ otherwise.

All modern units of reasonable quality - evben entry level - deliver "clean sound".
I can't agree with the xlr's don't have value except for long runs. I have a lab gruppen amp that only has xlr inputs so it is a cost of entry with this amp.
Bill Mac's Avatar Bill Mac
01:28 PM Liked: 501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
this thread has been renamed

link to owner's only thread
Emotiva XMC-1 Owners Only Thread

if you wish to post there as a guest or expert, please PM me: posts may be moderated i.e. they go to a moderation Q and have to be approved before they appear

at any rate it is up to individual members to maintain Forum Decorum....
Mark,

So if one is not an XMC-1 owner they can not ask owners specific questions about the XMC-1 without PMing you? I have to be honest and say this will be the first thread I have ever seen with such restrictions.

Bill
markrubin's Avatar markrubin
01:33 PM Liked: 489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Mark,

So if one is not an XMC-1 owner they can not ask owners specific questions about the XMC-1 without PMing you? I have to be honest and say this will be the first thread I have ever seen with such restrictions.

Bill
sure you can ask questions: I did not mean to restrict that...but please stay within posting guidelines

thanks
Bill Mac's Avatar Bill Mac
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
sure you can ask questions: I did not mean to restrict that...but please stay within posting guidelines

thanks
Mark,

Thanks for your quick response! I'm very interested in the XMC-1 and over the next 60 days (when Dirac is ready) I'll have many questions.

Bill
cap'n's Avatar cap'n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
Thanks Todd. Yes, it makes sense. I keep getting into the mode of thinking in terms of target curves, but as you mention in your paper, SFM doesn't deal in target curves, but in optimization of other metrics. So I was implicitly assuming the absence of a suckout due to cancellation of subwoofer pressure contributions having nearly equal amplitude, but out of phase. An optimizer based on target curves would end up rejecting such a potential solution.
The nice thing about SFM is that one can search through the top solutions and look for one that is good for seat to seat consistency and doesn't lose you too much bass (or maybe none).

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