Emotiva XMC-1 Chat Thread: technical talk only please - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Nonsense. This is his job, his BOSS should be pointing out any unprofessional conduct(which this is), and apparently this situation sits just fine with Emotiva. It damages their credibility too.
Do you think reviews from the likes of Stereophile not similar, especially when the manufacturers are big advertisers?

I don't see much difference. :/

I want real world reviews from owners.
Those to me hold much more weight.

...but I also want to see measurement graphs so users don't tend to also own analysers.
well except for some of the hardcore folks here.

So who is getting one from all of the posters here so far?
we should clear this thread of the 9 or so pages of pretty much not much information for those units shipping next week.
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post #242 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
I didn't post this to defend him only to point out he did address this topic after someone at the the lounge pointed this out.

Take it only as that and what he posted is what he posted. Doesn't affect anything technical about the XMC in my eyes.

This is tech talk right?

Anyway, I'm waiting for audioguy's review myself.
I didn't think you were defending AR. Tech talk maybe not but the discussion of a review of the XMC-1 is certainly on topic of this thread IMO.

Bill

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post #243 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I didn't think you were defending AR. Tech talk maybe not but the discussion of a review of the XMC-1 is certainly on topic of this thread IMO.

Bill
Some want tech talk only when the truth is in question.
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post #244 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 05:54 PM
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I thought FTC rules for bloggers said they had to disclose financial ties, freebies, renumeration for reviews. Of course maybe he isn't paid directly for reviews and so considers himself to be on the right side. Not in my opinion.

I believe it is normal for any employee of a company to disclose that fact in any public comments related to that industry. Allows everyone to see those comments in that context.
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post #245 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Thumped View Post
I thought FTC rules for bloggers said they had to disclose financial ties, freebies, renumeration for reviews. Of course maybe he isn't paid directly for reviews and so considers himself to be on the right side. Not in my opinion.

I believe it is normal for any employee of a company to disclose that fact in any public comments related to that industry. Allows everyone to see those comments in that context.
Very good point!

http://www.wired.com/2009/10/ftc-bloggers/


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The FTC’s logic is that people trust established sites. They can’t do the same for a blog or reviewer, so disclosures are a must.

The Commission acknowledges that bloggers may be subject to different disclosure requirements than reviewers in traditional media. In general, under usual circumstances, the Commission does not consider reviews published in traditional media to be sponsored advertising messages. [K]nowing whether the media entity that published the review paid for the item in question would not affect the weight consumers give to the reviewer’s statements….

In contrast, if a blogger’s statement on his personal blog or elsewhere (e.g., the site of an online retailer of electronic products) qualifies as an “endorsement” – i.e., as a sponsored message – due to the blogger’s relationship with the advertiser or the value of the merchandise he has received and has been asked to review by that advertiser, knowing these facts might affect the weight consumers give to his review.

http://www.business.ftc.gov/document...ple-are-asking


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Suppose you meet someone who tells you about a great new product. It performs exactly as advertised and offers fantastic new features. Would that endorsement factor into your decision to buy the product? Probably.

Now suppose you learn that the person works for the company that sells the product – or has been paid by the company to tout the product. Would you want to know that when you’re evaluating the endorser’s glowing recommendation? You bet. That common-sense premise is at the heart of the revised Endorsement Guides issued by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the nation’s consumer protection agency.

The revised Guides – issued after public comment and consumer research – reflect three basic truth-in-advertising principles:

Endorsements must be truthful and not misleading;
If the advertiser doesn’t have proof that the endorser’s experience represents what consumers will achieve by using the product, the ad must clearly and conspicuously disclose the generally expected results in the depicted circumstances; and
If there’s a connection between the endorser and the marketer of the product that would affect how people evaluate the endorsement, it should be disclosed.
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post #246 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Do you think reviews from the likes of Stereophile not similar, especially when the manufacturers are big advertisers?

I don't see much difference. :/

I want real world reviews from owners.
Those to me hold much more weight.

...but I also want to see measurement graphs so users don't tend to also own analysers.
well except for some of the hardcore folks here.

So who is getting one from all of the posters here so far?
we should clear this thread of the 9 or so pages of pretty much not much information for those units shipping next week.
A few thoughts. So if Stereophile does it, then that makes it okay? I will answer this one for you, no it does not, and the sterophile thing a a red herring. If it's wrong, it's wrong. There are reviews with integrity, and those without. This is in a different league, however, because the reviewer is directly employed by the company whose product he's reviewing. That's on a whole different level than merely accepting advertising money to print ads. Furthermore, it's obvious who Stereophile's sponsors are since they have ads in the magazine. With this "review" of the XMC, there is nothing to indicate that Emotiva is paying a salary to the author.

Your efforts at moderator are laudable, but this is a forum, is it not? The discussions are going to wander to and fro into areas you may not be in favour of, but that's the nature of forums. I too await the impressions of owners.
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post #247 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 06:35 PM
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AR does have a disclaimer on the very bottom of the home page but it is nowhere near the reviews or very easy to find. It should be placed at the bottom of the review page.
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post #248 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 06:38 PM
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Found it for one of his sites.

http://www.arccinema.com/

Quote:
DISCLAIMER
I’ve worked in and around the film and audio/video industries for the past 10 years in varying capacities. At present I serve as the Director of Digital Content for Emotiva Audio Corp. a specialty AV manufacturer. My duties as the Director of Digital Content mainly center around the creation of video content, specifically producing, filming, editing and publishing video content for their YouTube channel. Emotiva is not affiliated with this website in any way, nor do they have the ability to dictate its contents per my contract with them.
I would like to think, despite my ongoing working relationship with Emotiva, that I can still have an objective opinion on a variety of topics, including those that may be directly or indirectly related to the specialty AV industry. If you disagree that is your prerogative. At the end of the day, ARC Cinema is a personal site -my personal site.


But there is a different disclaimer of sorts on his blog site.
Emphasis mine.

http://www.andrew-robinson-online.com/contact-me/

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If you have a technical or service question regarding a piece of AV equipment that I’ve used and/or reviewed please direct it to the manufacturer of said product, not to me. I am not affiliated with any of the brands who manufacturer products with which I use and/or review. Also, please do not email me asking me for system advice and/or advice on what product or products you should buy. I will not respond to emails asking me if product “A” is better than “B,” as such a verdict is entirely subjective. My reviews are meant as helpful guides and should be viewed as such. Thank you for your understanding.

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post #249 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
A few thoughts. So if Stereophile does it, then that makes it okay? I will answer this one for you, no it does not, and the sterophile thing a a red herring. If it's wrong, it's wrong. There are reviews with integrity, and those without. This is in a different league, however, because the reviewer is directly employed by the company whose product he's reviewing. That's on a whole different level than merely accepting advertising money to print ads. Furthermore, it's obvious who Stereophile's sponsors are since they have ads in the magazine. With this "review" of the XMC, there is nothing to indicate that Emotiva is paying a salary to the author.

Your efforts at moderator are laudable, but this is a forum, is it not? The discussions are going to wander to and fro into areas you may not be in favour of, but that's the nature of forums. I too await the impressions of owners.
I'm not arguing against those points.
what I wanted to say is I don't put much weight in reviews where a strong bias is known.
As to the extent of the bias, I really don't care since I have already moved on from the review.

Am I making sense?
And I really think this point is a bit boring and would really want to see some real hands on reviews.

I see some thinking about what they could do with stereo subs with 11 bands of PEQ each using just REW.
I still don't quite get how they got the noise floor so low doing all of that AD conversion.
(Good news for 2ch fans.)

Does it suck that the unit can't do network streaming?
Yes if you think a AVR/AVP should do that.
(I tend to disagree and would like to see the pro and cons)

How does the unit sound using an OPPO 105 both with analog in and HDMI?
HDMI switching is always a PITA. How does this unit compare?

Lets talk tech.
Can't wait until real owners start to post.
But if you owned one would you want to in this thread considering the shape it is currently in?
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post #250 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 06:48 PM
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Hey Bootman didn't I buy a DVDO Edge processor from you years ago? I think it was over at the Lounge.

Cheers

Dan
Yes Dan, that was me.
I beta tested for DVDO when they were developing that unit.

Al
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post #251 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 06:50 PM
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I just read the first few pages of the manual, and this jumped out at me... now I know I WON'T be buying the XMC-1!!!

-Ref Mode, the output is always TWO CHANNEL STEREO.
-There is NO bass management, and NOTHING is sent to the subwoofer.

Or if I did I'd have to keep my XSP-1 in the signal path, because I need my subwoofers to work (REALLY EMO, REALLY?)
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post #252 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I just read the first few pages of the manual, and this jumped out at me... now I know I WON'T be buying the XMC-1!!!

-Ref Mode, the output is always TWO CHANNEL STEREO.
-There is NO bass management, and NOTHING is sent to the subwoofer.

Or if I did I'd have to keep my XSP-1 in the signal path, because I need my subwoofers to work (REALLY EMO, REALLY?)
Well in that mode the ADC is not engaged so like virtually every other prepro that i know of it is pretty much par for the course.

(think about it. Nothing is touching the signal. its like a straight wire with gain and that means no XO.)

Now for all of you with a 105 using analog out, does oppo offer a sub out in 2ch mode?
if not same concept, if they do, use it!

But with the published specs I would just use regular two channel mode and let the prepro do the crossover digitally anyway.

At least this is how I understood the manual and specs so if i'm missing something, I'm all ears.

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post #253 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by clay71 View Post
AR does have a disclaimer on the very bottom of the home page but it is nowhere near the reviews or very easy to find. It should be placed at the bottom of the review page.
I concur, the disclaimer should even go in the body of the review, not on some back page that very few would see. But it is what it is, and another fumble in the story that is the XMC. Actual owner feedback will tell the tale on this unit, just as it did the UMC despite the giddy pronouncements coming from the heavy weights at Emotiva.
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post #254 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Actual owner feedback will tell the tale on this unit, just as it did the UMC despite the giddy pronouncements coming from the heavy weights at Emotiva.
Can't agree more.
I hope real owners post soon.
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post #255 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
I'm not arguing against those points.
what I wanted to say is I don't put much weight in reviews where a strong bias is known.
As to the extent of the bias, I really don't care since I have already moved on from the review.

Am I making sense?
And I really think this point is a bit boring and would really want to see some real hands on reviews.
That's fine, but if you weren't arguing "against those points" then why bring up Stereophile or the "hey, people make mistakes" defence? Hey, don't worry about it, usually I can follow your train of thought and you are a thoughtful poster who adds to the discussion. I know you support Emotiva as many do, let's hope that this launch has no more hiccups and the unit performs without bugs.
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post #256 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
That's fine, but if you weren't arguing "against those points" then why bring up Stereophile or the "hey, people make mistakes" defence? Hey, don't worry about it, usually I can follow your train of thought and you are a thoughtful poster who adds to the discussion. I know you support Emotiva as many do, let's hope that this launch has no more hiccups and the unit performs without bugs.
While I do post a lot in their forums, my only support to the company is to buy their gear when it works.
Just like any other smart consumer.
I had a LMC and sold it I had a UMC (bought used) and sold it and recently got a good deal on a used amp (XPR-5)

So if this xmc works out to be the performer it claims to be I'm interested.
Right now I'm just doing my homework.
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post #257 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I just read the first few pages of the manual, and this jumped out at me... now I know I WON'T be buying the XMC-1!!!

-Ref Mode, the output is always TWO CHANNEL STEREO.
-There is NO bass management, and NOTHING is sent to the subwoofer.

Or if I did I'd have to keep my XSP-1 in the signal path, because I need my subwoofers to work (REALLY EMO, REALLY?)
Read deeper, they have stereo modes that also do bass management.
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post #258 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Now for all of you with a 105 using analog out, does oppo offer a sub out in 2ch mode?
if not same concept, if they do, use it!
Not from the USB DAC it doesn't; not sure about from Disc or network streaming (probably not either).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Well in that mode the ADC is not engaged.
But with the published specs I would just use regular two channel mode and let the prepro do the crossover digitally anyway.
Now that I've read more of it, I see that the next best option is Direct Mode, so all hope is not lost for the users.

I guess I'm spoiled because my XSP-1 allows me to drive my stereo subs in "Reference mode", something the XMC-1 has to engage a ADC to provide a "similar" function.
Hence my dilemma of not being able to just simply "replace" my XSP-1 with an XMC-1; I lose quality & functionality by doing so...

I'd be forced to compromise; but is that compromise worth it...? That is the $2,000 unanswered question of the day! (For me at least.)

That said, I do like the bass-management capabilities they implemented and the all-channels 11-point PEQ DSP that it has (with or without Dirac added on.)
I wonder if it goes below 20hz? (Probably NOT!)

But I still think I'll wait for the RMC-1 though

Last edited by BassThatHz; 07-18-2014 at 08:08 PM.
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post #259 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Not from the USB DAC it doesn't; not sure about from Disc or network streaming (probably not either).


Now that I've read more of it, I see that the next best option is Direct Mode, so all hope is not lost for the users.

I guess I'm spoiled because my XSP-1 allows me to drive my stereo subs in "Reference mode", something the XMC-1 has to engage a ADC to provide a "similar" function.
Hence my dilemma of not being able to just simply "replace" my XSP-1 with an XMC-1; I lose quality & functionality by doing so...

I'd be forced to compromise; but is that compromise worth it...? That is the $2,000 unanswered question of the day! (For me at least.)

That said, I do like the bass-management capabilities they implemented and the all-channels 11-point PEQ DSP that it has (with or without Dirac added on.)
I wonder if it goes below 20hz? (Probably NOT!)

But I still think I'll wait for the RMC-1 though
I'll be honest here.
If you are happy with the xsp-1 2ch performance (which by all accounts is stellar) and whatever you are using for HT, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade to a XMC (or any other prepro/avr really) at this time.

Now if you want to jump on the Atmos wagon, then keep your XSP-1 and just upgrade whatever you are using for HT.

Pretty simple logic.

now if you want to reduce the amount of gear in your rack them something like the xmc may make more sence.
it is really up to your needs.
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post #260 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 10:29 PM
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The question is, can humans hear the difference between SNR of 120dB and SNR of 113dB. If not, then there is no difference that matters.
True, the summing of all quality parts; their implementation by expert minds...
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post #261 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Or with a new Atmos bluray player with analog outs.

If OPPO came out with one many would not bother with a AVR especially if they already have $$$ invested in a nice system.
That, I like a lot, Mr. Bootman.

* By the way, in the world we live in today, a good digital section (DACs, filters, ...) with asynchronous USB connections, anti-jitter HDMI connections, the right amount of dithering, etc., is as much important if not more than an analog section and a phono preamp.

But we all have our priorities and prerogatives, and the XMC-1 analog section is what the doctor has just ordered for some; Dirac or Diracless.
And incidentally, Dirac is digital; so if it ever shows up, it will do what to that beautiful XMC-1 analog stage?
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post #262 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by audioguy View Post
Roger's subs are Seaton SubMersives and they do not have any parametric EQ but the Classe does.

EDIT: My bad: Roger has HSU's. I was thinking of a particular video reviewer.
Yep, Roger Dressler, the new surround sound explorer (Atmos), ex-Dolby man (for 25 years), and not that other Roger Dressler from WBF (same exact name), the open-tape-reel man, the orchestral music lover, the great gentleman, ...

Plus there are several pro audio/video reviewers/writers named Roger.

Thx audioguy.
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post #263 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 10:47 PM
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By the way, the XMC-1; two HDMI outputs, and all the HDMI inputs --> version 2.0? ...Ha!
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post #264 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
One wouldn't ever guess he was an employee from the article.
Below is a sample. He doesn't mention that Dan is his boss, does he?
He also mentions "Emotiva" in the third person throughout the article as if he isn't part of Emotiva. hmmm?





Curious that the word "is" is in italics in two places. I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the word "is", is because I thought that originally, the XMC-1 was to include Dirac when the unit was to be shipped and not to be an add on at a later promised date. I suppose that was beyond my expectations.
As it sits right now the XMC-1, and Andrew's review is all defensive, and just a multichannel pre/pro Diracless and Atmosless.
Yes it's here, but incomplete, and after seven (or eight?) long freakin' years!

Let's call it what it is, a caboose.
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post #265 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
Boot,

No offense but AR can talk about it all day on the Lounge. Where it is important and should be mentioned is in the actual review on his site.

Bill
Touche Mr. Bill sir. ...Or in my own French language: Right on!
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post #266 of 1859 Old 07-18-2014, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ratamacue View Post
I have a techinical question of sorts - if one were to use the XMC-1 as a 2.1 channel rig with full range towers and two subs, would the PEQ and or Dirac be available including trims levels? For example if using => mini using iTunes lossless/DSD > usb out > Benchmark DAC 2 > bal analog out > bal analog in XMC-1?
First, why would you add a superfluous AD/DA loop with the Benchmark box?

Second, if you're doing a 2.1 channel rig then I would suggest using something that has functional room correction, such as the miniDSP Dirac box with appropriate I/O for your system and an outboard crossover. Or an Anthem AVR/pre-pro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
For recent hardware platforms, like the Theta Casablanca IV and Emotiva XMC-1, Dirac has chosen to do filter calculations in their cloud. From the few blurbs I've seen at the Emo Lounge, seems they are having trouble getting their implementation to interface with the cloud.
FWIW, Dirac does seem quite complicated to implement generally. Theta's had their struggles. (Makes one feel for Jeff Hipps, taking that project over after the Sherwood R-972...though in that case Trinnov was by far the smoothest working part of it.)

Even miniDSP has issues implementing Dirac fully. Their Dirac boxes don't yet have OSX-compatible software that can talk to their box, even though Dirac Live! has long been a Mac-native program. Their box unfortunately only works with not-a-Macs right now. (Emo's also claiming that their someday Dirac implementation will run on Macs as well as not-a-Macs.)

The folks at miniDSP strike me as very sharp and very focused. So if it's taking them some time to get the lines of communication between computers and DSP open...it seems like a big task for a company like Emo that really specializes in affordable versions of interchangeable commodity parts (audio amplifiers, DACs, analog preamps, etc.).

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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Say what you will, Andrew is one skilled writer. Check out the careful wording: "the XMC-1 is what was promised, way back in the beginning". Right, way back before they promised Dirac. Gotta hand it to the guy.
But...way back in the beginning didn't they promise TacT room correction?

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Originally Posted by usxplong View Post
Based on the XMC-1's processors, I assume it will not be full force Dirac.
FWIW, miniDSP has a full-bore (32bit/96kHz) 2.0-channel channel implementation in their Dirac boxes. The DSP horsepower in those boxes is a "32bit Floating point Analog Devices SHARC ADSP21369 / 333MHz" I'm not a computer guy so I don't know how the various chips compare, but perhaps someone who does might be able to interpret something from those specs.

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post #267 of 1859 Old 07-19-2014, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
But...way back in the beginning didn't they promise TacT room correction?
I think way back they promised EmoQ room correction. TacT came later, a brief flirtation for around 6 months or so, before switching to Dirac.

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post #268 of 1859 Old 07-19-2014, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
What I wonder is, if you configure it for a single sub, can you still adjust gain and distance trims for the two sub outputs independently? It seems like they may have conflated the concepts of "mono subs" and "single sub".
You can't. I've tried to point it out several times at Lounge, but every time I tell something important there it's getting ignored by the Emotiva guys, while some less important small-talks usually get attention from them.. So, while you have all the necessary electronics in the XMC-1 to do proper mono multi-sub management... you still need an extra ADC/DSP/DAC box to add the delay when you need it The same goes with the Reference Level Offset for Loudness feature.

What is most pity - both are really trivial thing to implement, just an addition of few menus in the UI to set parameters and a few lines of code in the DSP itself.

May be we should open a topic there and collectively voice our needs...
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post #269 of 1859 Old 07-19-2014, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post
miniDSP has a full-bore (32bit/96kHz) 2.0-channel channel implementation in their Dirac boxes. The DSP horsepower in those boxes is a "32bit Floating point Analog Devices SHARC ADSP21369 / 333MHz" I'm not a computer guy so I don't know how the various chips compare, but perhaps someone who does might be able to interpret something from those specs.
ADSP21369 specs for single chip:
Quote:
400MHz SIMD SHARC Core, capable of 2.4 GFLOPS peak performance
So 2.4G floating operations per second (and in particular most important for DSP multiply-accumulate OP is counted as one there). Multiply it by two (4.8G) and it is basically what any XT32 unit of last year have.

Emotiva specs for two chips in total are:
Quote:
3600 MIPS of processing power
It is a different benchmark and different architecture (fixed point instead of floating point), but in essence it still counts as 3.6G instruction per second (where again multiply-accumulate instruction is counted as one, so, while benchmarks are different they pretty much comparable).

MiniDSP used DSP exclusively for room EQ (Dirac), and only 2 channels, so, it can be capable of 96kHz on one chip. AV processor uses it for all kind of tasks at the same time, starting from decoding compressed audio, resampling, de-matrixing, reverb-effects (probably none on Emotiva), tone, loudness control, dynamic range control (seems also be missing from XMC-1), ASRC, bass management and then room EQ. Scaling down to 48kHz (two times) generally saves something like about 2-4 times the resources depending on the processing methods (FIR scales worse than IIR and Dirac uses both... still most of the resource usage probably comes from FIR, so the total difference will be closer to 4 times).
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post #270 of 1859 Old 07-19-2014, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I just read the first few pages of the manual, and this jumped out at me... now I know I WON'T be buying the XMC-1!!!

-Ref Mode, the output is always TWO CHANNEL STEREO.
-There is NO bass management, and NOTHING is sent to the subwoofer.

Or if I did I'd have to keep my XSP-1 in the signal path, because I need my subwoofers to work (REALLY EMO, REALLY?)
That's why the XSP is special.

And the XMC isn't.
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