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Old 07-20-2014, 08:13 AM
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Alright, so have we reached a definite agreement as to whether or not separates are worth it? I need to know whether to spend my $30k to buy a new car or buy separates.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:25 AM
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IMHO separates can save you money in the very long run.
I still have my original 30 year old Classe amp, a 25 and a 20 year old Bryston's and a pair of 15 year old Proceed's.
Other than a tune-up/recap on the Classe , all have been completely trouble free.

My Lexicon mc12 pre-pro predates hdmi so have resorted to using the analog outs of the Oppo to get lossless TrueHD and MasterAudio formats. While I will never recoup "any" money on the outdated Lex, the amps are still keepers waiting for my next generation pre-pro.

An analogy from the pro DSLR camera world, a 4 year old digital body is almost worthless, but a 10 year old pro lens is worth almost your original outlay.

Shawn
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I would go multichannel


Warren
+1 If you are contemplating any type of home theater setup, it really makes sense to go with a multichannel. But here is the dilemma I have found with my multichannel, 9.2 Pioneer SC65 when using it as a standalone, multichannel receiver or as a "Preamp" with my Wyred 4 Sound MMC 7.1, 221 wpc "Class D" amplifier - - stereo was horrific. My old CD collection sounded awful. Limited bass - - it was very weak.


I solved that by integrating a Parasound 2100-- stereo preamplifier with HT bypass and I couldn't be happier. I also used the analog outputs from my OPPO 103 in the setup. Another reason to consider an OPPO or another Bluray player that has this capability.


I mean - it's night and day. I'm having a great time rediscovering my CD collection again (Winwood - Arc of a Diver, Little Feat - Waiting for Columbus, Susan Tedeschi - - the list goes on.)


Nice "thump" with the tight bass via my Paradigm Studio 60's v.2. Quite a sonic difference - - IMHO.


So - - if two channel, stereo listening is a big part of your requirements - - please keep this in mind. Maybe there is a new integrated AVR out there that solves this problem.

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED & BenQ W1080ST & Vizio M43C1
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp) & Emotive XPA-3, 200 WPC
OPPO 103, Comcast Infinity X1, Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR) CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS), MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub
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Old 07-20-2014, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
IMO

when a poster starts one of these threads they should put a few disclaimers out there

Agree that much of this is subjective opinion

request that the posters offering recommendations cite what equipment they personally have experience with....down to specific model and depth/time of equipment ownership

I personally place a LOT more merit in the opinion of a person who actually owned the equipment they are commenting on





Warren

If absolutely every comment on every AVS Forum thread had to be scientifically based and proven, there would be very little activity or posting.


And I couldn't agree more with the value of someone's opinion who actually owns the equipment they are commenting on.


It's up to each member to read through the threads and determine what makes sense for them - - how they will use the information to buy a new product or improve on what they currently have.

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED & BenQ W1080ST & Vizio M43C1
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp) & Emotive XPA-3, 200 WPC
OPPO 103, Comcast Infinity X1, Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR) CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS), MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub
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Old 07-20-2014, 11:42 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
how are you defining theater like levels....DB level?
Peak dB SPL without audible distortion at the listening location. 105-110 dB should do. I observe up to 115 dB SPL peak.

Listening distance = about 12 feet which seems about right for the 60" screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
and driving what speakers with what source material?
LRC = Infinity Primus PC351

Two unexceptional 12" subwoofers, one Cambridge Soundworks, one Paradigm.

The AVR is a Denon AVR 1913.

A wide variety of movies and songs.

(BTW Dr. Don, isn't this a direct personal challenge and also a demand for scientific basis and proof?)
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:02 PM
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IMHO...
A pertinent point being missed in this thread is maintaining the investment value in your components...
Good sounding amplifiers and loudspeakers will always be required whether the sytem is 2.1, 5.1 7.1, 9.2, 11.2... Sometimes more may be required depending upon the system application..

The component changing most frequently are the AVRs, by offloading the burden of the amplifiers from the AVR buying decision one can focus on what I/Os are required, what DSPs surround modes, what room eq s/w, # of HDMI inputs/outputs, video modes..
Thus focusing on a capable AVR with Pre-Outs or a surround controller/processor one gets better flexibility plus knowing his amplifier are solid performing..

So yes, separate components makes more sense here except...
For the WAF...
More components needs more physical space so kleering this hurdle U are on your own..

Just my $0.03...
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Old 07-20-2014, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Peak dB SPL without audible distortion at the listening location. 105-110 dB should do. I observe up to 115 dB SPL peak.

Listening distance = about 12 feet which seems about right for the 60" screen.



LRC = Infinity Primus PC351

Two unexceptional 12" subwoofers, one Cambridge Soundworks, one Paradigm.

The AVR is a Denon AVR 1913.

A wide variety of movies and songs.

(BTW Dr. Don, isn't this a direct personal challenge and also a demand for scientific basis and proof?)
Using unmatched subwoofers is asking for troubles...
One should whenever possible match the subwoofers...
Each brand of subwoofer uses a different cabinet configuration, amplifiers introducing more variable for low frequency output is asking for problems...
Because both subwoofers are 12" are a start but will still fall short.. Each listening room has enough LF peaks/resonances without introducing more challenges and variables....
This point is strongly confirmed in the Harman white paper on multiple subwoofers from Dr.Toole, Todd Welti..

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...s/multsubs.pdf

Just my $0.03...
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
Peak dB SPL without audible distortion at the listening location. 105-110 dB should do. I observe up to 115 dB SPL peak.

Listening distance = about 12 feet which seems about right for the 60" screen.



LRC = Infinity Primus PC351

Two unexceptional 12" subwoofers, one Cambridge Soundworks, one Paradigm.

The AVR is a Denon AVR 1913.

A wide variety of movies and songs.

(BTW Dr. Don, isn't this a direct personal challenge and also a demand for scientific basis and proof?)
therein lies the subjectivity

"audible distortion".......

can vary from ear to ear

IMO...one of the easiest ways to identify higher quality components is harshness in the sound

Harshness at high levels of DB
This is amplified if the speakers are harder to drive

Harshness even at standard listening levels.....especially in gunshot sounds in movie soundtracks and instrumental music

I dont know if there is a reference standard for THX ultra in regard to SPL
I know the ultra standard is based on rooms 3,000 cubic ft ( or larger) and 12 feet away from the screen

I want to say the Onkyo 906 has a volume level...not sure of the number...where it changes from numbers to "THX reference" on the display

I bought a Denon 591 for like $65 a few months ago clearance at Best Buy
I just bought it to run some outdoor speakers since I thought running zone 2 from another room would be a royal PITA

Anyway...first off the first thing I noticed that it was about 1/3 of the weight of a couple of my other AVR's

Just for grins I hooked it up in a couple of areas ..one where a Onkyo 906 sits and the other where a Pioneer SC65 does. The Pioneer SC65 nor the Denon 591 had been put through calibration. Audessey had been run on the 906
Just in listening to the basic 2 channel it seemed than the lower register in male vocals had an edginess in the Denon......somewhat fatiguing actually

But anyway

Like I said all it is doing is running some outdoor speakers...so is is ok for that function when needed

For $65.00...its fine

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 Vizio M50A2R Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC87 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Yamaha A2040 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
IMHO...
A pertinent point being missed in this thread is maintaining the investment value in your components...
Good sounding amplifiers and loudspeakers will always be required whether the sytem is 2.1, 5.1 7.1, 9.2, 11.2... Sometimes more may be required depending upon the system application..

The component changing most frequently are the AVRs, by offloading the burden of the amplifiers from the AVR buying decision one can focus on what I/Os are required, what DSPs surround modes, what room eq s/w, # of HDMI inputs/outputs, video modes..
Thus focusing on a capable AVR with Pre-Outs or a surround controller/processor one gets better flexibility plus knowing his amplifier are solid performing..

So yes, separate components makes more sense here except...
For the WAF...
More components needs more physical space so kleering this hurdle U are on your own..

Just my $0.03...

good points

except

The Asian manufactures...namely Yamaha , Marantz and Onkyo have pre/pro and amp combos that seem to try to take the place of their older discontinued flagship AVR's...there is a little muddying of the water here with Marantz since its part of D&M and they share technology and platforms

But my point is...both companies have combinations with price points about where their flagship AVR's were a few years ago
The pre/pro boasts some small DAC changes that may or may not be noticed over their current upped end AVR. They have balanced outputs, unlike their receiver brethren...though they are not fully balanced

The amps dont bench any better than their current line of top AVR's do...with 65-75 watts per channel( Yamaha lowest..others a bit higher) with 5 channels driven..AND they cost 30-50% more than the top end AVR

so why would someone buy the Yamaha ,Onkyo or Marantz combo...rather than the brands highest end AVR?
By this I mean Yamaha A3030 ..Denon 4520..or Onkyo 5010

Buying any of the pre pros and putting a more capable with it..I completely understand

Buying the one brand combo over their highest end AVR..I dont

that is one case where I say buy an AVR vs separates


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 Vizio M50A2R Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC87 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Yamaha A2040 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarvinTheMartian View Post
IMHO separates can save you money in the very long run.
I still have my original 30 year old Classe amp, a 25 and a 20 year old Bryston's and a pair of 15 year old Proceed's.
Other than a tune-up/recap on the Classe , all have been completely trouble free.

My Lexicon mc12 pre-pro predates hdmi so have resorted to using the analog outs of the Oppo to get lossless TrueHD and MasterAudio formats. While I will never recoup "any" money on the outdated Lex, the amps are still keepers waiting for my next generation pre-pro.

An analogy from the pro DSLR camera world, a 4 year old digital body is almost worthless, but a 10 year old pro lens is worth almost your original outlay.

Shawn
and your system probably sounds better than 95% of the new systems out there...especially for 2 channel audio...and the component build quality first rate as well

I would hold onto those pieces for a LONG while

or send me a PM if you are looking at selling anything...

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 Vizio M50A2R Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC87 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Yamaha A2040 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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Old 07-20-2014, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
good points
except
The Asian manufactures...namely Yamaha , Marantz and Onkyo have pre/pro and amp combos that seem to try to take the place of their older discontinued flagship AVR's...there is a little muddying of the water here with Marantz since its part of D&M and they share technology and platforms
But my point is...both companies have combinations with price points about where their flagship AVR's were a few years ago
The pre/pro boasts some small DAC changes that may or may not be noticed over their current upped end AVR. They have balanced outputs, unlike their receiver brethren...though they are not fully balanced
The amps dont bench any better than their current line of top AVR's do...with 65-75 watts per channel( Yamaha lowest..others a bit higher) with 5 channels driven..AND they cost 30-50% more than the top end AVR
so why would someone buy the Yamaha ,Onkyo or Marantz combo...rather than the brands highest end AVR?
By this I mean Yamaha A3030 ..Denon 4520..or Onkyo 5010Buying any of the pre pros and putting a more capable with it..I completely understand
Buying the one brand combo over their highest end AVR..I dont
that is one case where I say buy an AVR vs separates

Warren

Power, power, most of the AVRs, separates made for the masses by the major brands are giving you the freedom to choose. Price by long or short term investment, history has proven that the front end preamp will not meet future needs, but the amps most likely will. If the amps can do the job today, than that shouldn't be any problem, you just may need more channels. With new formats and connections, its just a matter of time before your back in the market again, if you want to be up to date.. So your next upgrade will cost you what ? This is not about SQ, a AVR could sound better than separates if they design it to be the best piece of audio hardware ever, but thats just talk. They save the best they got for what costs you the most, rocket science..

Last edited by joehonest; 07-20-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
good points

except

The Asian manufactures...namely Yamaha , Marantz and Onkyo have pre/pro and amp combos that seem to try to take the place of their older discontinued flagship AVR's...there is a little muddying of the water here with Marantz since its part of D&M and they share technology and platforms

But my point is...both companies have combinations with price points about where their flagship AVR's were a few years ago
The pre/pro boasts some small DAC changes that may or may not be noticed over their current upped end AVR. They have balanced outputs, unlike their receiver brethren...though they are not fully balanced

The amps dont bench any better than their current line of top AVR's do...with 65-75 watts per channel( Yamaha lowest..others a bit higher) with 5 channels driven..AND they cost 30-50% more than the top end AVR

so why would someone buy the Yamaha ,Onkyo or Marantz combo...rather than the brands highest end AVR?
By this I mean Yamaha A3030 ..Denon 4520..or Onkyo 5010

Buying any of the pre pros and putting a more capable with it..I completely understand

Buying the one brand combo over their highest end AVR..I dont

that is one case where I say buy an AVR vs separates


Warren
The problem today with the AVR designers is they tend to copy and follow one another rather than innovate..
Trying to outpower and/or have more HDMI inputs than the competition..
Since the majority of AVRs are designed and built in China the product planning teams (based in China) have minimal contact with the direction the market is going....
Though changing..
The primary content studios and silicon providers are located in the North America not the Far East, this is a disconnect.. Remember certain previous AVRs used to have not only Pre-Outs but also Main-Ins, so the user can apply the on-board amplifiers for his specific application such as ceiling surrounds or Zone 2 or Zone 3...

Regarding mid to higher AVRs, the brands that still design/produce this category use the same circuits and PCBs as in their Pre-amps/Controllers to save tooling $...
Though Pre-amps/Controllers are typically priced higher due to the low unit sales volume vs. AVRs..

Just my $0.03...
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:18 PM
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More bickering removed. Thread bans issued.

Here's a handy tip. If you address another member directly in a post and it's not a compliment, you're probably on thin ice.
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Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
The problem today with the AVR designers is they tend to copy and follow one another rather than innovate..
Trying to outpower and/or have more HDMI inputs than the competition..
Since the majority of AVRs are designed and built in China the product planning teams (based in China) have minimal contact with the direction the market is going....
Though changing..
The primary content studios and silicon providers are located in the North America not the Far East, this is a disconnect.. Remember certain previous AVRs used to have not only Pre-Outs but also Main-Ins, so the user can apply the on-board amplifiers for his specific application such as ceiling surrounds or Zone 2 or Zone 3...

Regarding mid to higher AVRs, the brands that still design/produce this category use the same circuits and PCBs as in their Pre-amps/Controllers to save tooling $...
Though Pre-amps/Controllers are typically priced higher due to the low unit sales volume vs. AVRs
..

Just my $0.03...
yep...hence my question of why would someone buy the combination that started this thread..or the Onkyo .or the yamaha pair

Their separate amps dont bench any better than their best AVR's

I would bet the OP's Denon 5308 benches better than the separate marantz amp he is considering

I also bet the build quality on his 5308 AVR is better than the new Marantz combo he is considering

I "get" buying an asian prepro to pair with a good amp

I dont "get" buying one of their amps vs their best AVR's


Warren
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Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 Vizio M50A2R Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC87 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:35 PM
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I prefer a pre/pro which then turns on 5 amps via trigger - it's so cool seeing everything power up. It's psychoacoustics.
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDon View Post
More bickering removed. Thread bans issued.

Here's a handy tip. If you address another member directly in a post and it's not a compliment, you're probably on thin ice.

Don,


I appreciate what you're trying to do with the thread, but I don't think it's fair that some of us had comments that were deemed inappropriate removed when people like Arny can get away with saying "I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people.." wherein it feels like a quasi-threat leading to a baiting for argument; I've seen this tactic used countless times on forums like this. I don't think it's fair for his comment to remain while some others' were removed...


Just my opinion.

5.1: ONKYO TX-SR605B - oppo BDP-83 - SONY KDS-50A2020 SXRD
Mains: polkaudio RTi12 - Center: polkaudio CSi30 - Surrounds: SpeakerCraft Preinstalled In-Ceiling - Sub: polkaudio PSW350 - Auralex Acoustics SubDude - MONSTER PowerCenter HT700
2-CHANNEL:
ONKYO TX-8555 - marantz CC4001 - TASCAM CD-RW900SL PROFESSIONAL - Numark CDMIX 1 PROFESSIONAL
Infinity BY HARMAN PRIMUS P363BK - audio-technica AT-LP120-USB PROFESSIONAL -
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Speakers do not "open up."

Dear Fellow Audioholics Member,


I'm merely going by what I have been told by other RTi owners and what I've read via reviews and owner feedback pieces...it's often said these speakers need power to "really sing" and "open up"...


Quote:
They reproduce the voltages that are fed to them. There are only two things they fail at doing with respect to amplifiers. The first is getting loud enough. The second is avoiding distortion due to clipping. If your speakers play loud enough and do not clip then you have enough amplifier power. My own speakers are less sensitive than yours and they never dissipate more than 18 watts even on loud peaks. Amplifier power is one of the least important factors in all of audio. It is the audio press and internet forums that have confused you. Amplifier manufacturers make their amplifiers work with most real world situations in order to avoid going out of business.

If your current setup is working for you there is no need to change anything. If you just want to change something then, by all means, do that.

I see what you're saying, and thank you for your opinion and input...but do you not think (taking my needs out of the equation for a moment) that, say, a professional QSC or Crown amp or consumer Emotiva would produce more raw current for louder passage peaks as compared to the "rated" 90 watts per channel of my current AVR?

5.1: ONKYO TX-SR605B - oppo BDP-83 - SONY KDS-50A2020 SXRD
Mains: polkaudio RTi12 - Center: polkaudio CSi30 - Surrounds: SpeakerCraft Preinstalled In-Ceiling - Sub: polkaudio PSW350 - Auralex Acoustics SubDude - MONSTER PowerCenter HT700
2-CHANNEL:
ONKYO TX-8555 - marantz CC4001 - TASCAM CD-RW900SL PROFESSIONAL - Numark CDMIX 1 PROFESSIONAL
Infinity BY HARMAN PRIMUS P363BK - audio-technica AT-LP120-USB PROFESSIONAL -
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
+1 If you are contemplating any type of home theater setup, it really makes sense to go with a multichannel. But here is the dilemma I have found with my multichannel, 9.2 Pioneer SC65 when using it as a standalone, multichannel receiver or as a "Preamp" with my Wyred 4 Sound MMC 7.1, 221 wpc "Class D" amplifier - - stereo was horrific. My old CD collection sounded awful. Limited bass - - it was very weak.


I solved that by integrating a Parasound 2100-- stereo preamplifier with HT bypass and I couldn't be happier. I also used the analog outputs from my OPPO 103 in the setup. Another reason to consider an OPPO or another Bluray player that has this capability.


I mean - it's night and day. I'm having a great time rediscovering my CD collection again (Winwood - Arc of a Diver, Little Feat - Waiting for Columbus, Susan Tedeschi - - the list goes on.)


Nice "thump" with the tight bass via my Paradigm Studio 60's v.2. Quite a sonic difference - - IMHO.


So - - if two channel, stereo listening is a big part of your requirements - - please keep this in mind. Maybe there is a new integrated AVR out there that solves this problem.

However, I question the merits of a multichannel amp combined with a brand new high-powered AVR because it seems silly to me to buy a shiny, brand spankin' new receiver with high power and nice features and simply ignore all of its amp channels...I think these could at least work for surrounds, no? That's why I was thinking a three channel or two channel model just to power the front stage...

5.1: ONKYO TX-SR605B - oppo BDP-83 - SONY KDS-50A2020 SXRD
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:47 PM
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I would go multichannel


Warren

Thanks; but can you give me a bit more insight as to why?


I had questioned the same thing with another member I just replied to before you -- my thinking is that by getting a new receiver and ignoring all its amp channels, it seems kind of silly in a way; if I went with a multichannel amp to power all the channels, this would completely bypass the internal amps of the new AVR....can't the surround channels at least benefit from a new receiver's power?

5.1: ONKYO TX-SR605B - oppo BDP-83 - SONY KDS-50A2020 SXRD
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:03 PM
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Thanks; but can you give me a bit more insight as to why?


I had questioned the same thing with another member I just replied to before you -- my thinking is that by getting a new receiver and ignoring all its amp channels, it seems kind of silly in a way; if I went with a multichannel amp to power all the channels, this would completely bypass the internal amps of the new AVR....can't the surround channels at least benefit from a new receiver's power?
equal power all around.....characteristics of the amp are consistent among all channels

However ..you could get the same thing with a group of mono blocks but the price will be more


Warren

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Old 07-20-2014, 06:07 PM
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equal power all around.....characteristics of the amp are consistent among all channels

However ..you could get the same thing with a group of mono blocks but the price will be more


Warren
I see your point, Warren; I did in fact consider monoblocks all around but that would be WAY out of my budget...thanks for the suggestion though.


As for the "equal power all around," this totally makes sense -- but would an AVR's power really seem "that off" or "lacking" just for surround use even by doing it this way?

5.1: ONKYO TX-SR605B - oppo BDP-83 - SONY KDS-50A2020 SXRD
Mains: polkaudio RTi12 - Center: polkaudio CSi30 - Surrounds: SpeakerCraft Preinstalled In-Ceiling - Sub: polkaudio PSW350 - Auralex Acoustics SubDude - MONSTER PowerCenter HT700
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ONKYO TX-8555 - marantz CC4001 - TASCAM CD-RW900SL PROFESSIONAL - Numark CDMIX 1 PROFESSIONAL
Infinity BY HARMAN PRIMUS P363BK - audio-technica AT-LP120-USB PROFESSIONAL -
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:10 PM
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I see your point, Warren; I did in fact consider monoblocks all around but that would be WAY out of my budget...thanks for the suggestion though.


As for the "equal power all around," this totally makes sense -- but would an AVR's power really seem "that off" or "lacking" just for surround use even by doing it this way?

depends on what AVR and seprate amp you are looking at

there are many capable AVR's...as I mentioned earlier in this thread

Some that can bench 100WPC with 5 channels driven....a lot of power for most applications


Warren

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Old 07-20-2014, 06:12 PM
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depends on what AVR and seprate amp you are looking at

there are many capable AVR's...as I mentioned earlier in this thread

Some that can bench 100WPC with 5 channels driven....a lot of power for most applications


Warren

You mean "a lot of power for most applications" in terms of using JUST the AVR for powering ALL channels?

5.1: ONKYO TX-SR605B - oppo BDP-83 - SONY KDS-50A2020 SXRD
Mains: polkaudio RTi12 - Center: polkaudio CSi30 - Surrounds: SpeakerCraft Preinstalled In-Ceiling - Sub: polkaudio PSW350 - Auralex Acoustics SubDude - MONSTER PowerCenter HT700
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:14 PM
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You mean "a lot of power for most applications" in terms of using JUST the AVR for powering ALL channels?
yes



Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 Vizio M50A2R Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:21 PM
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Got-cha.

5.1: ONKYO TX-SR605B - oppo BDP-83 - SONY KDS-50A2020 SXRD
Mains: polkaudio RTi12 - Center: polkaudio CSi30 - Surrounds: SpeakerCraft Preinstalled In-Ceiling - Sub: polkaudio PSW350 - Auralex Acoustics SubDude - MONSTER PowerCenter HT700
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:32 PM
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Dear Fellow Audioholics Member,


I'm merely going by what I have been told by other RTi owners and what I've read via reviews and owner feedback pieces...it's often said these speakers need power to "really sing" and "open up"...





I see what you're saying, and thank you for your opinion and input...but do you not think (taking my needs out of the equation for a moment) that, say, a professional QSC or Crown amp or consumer Emotiva would produce more raw current for louder passage peaks as compared to the "rated" 90 watts per channel of my current AVR?
People say the same crap about my former magnepans. Either they are imagining things or pushing the speakers into compression and distortion.
My listening habits put average levels around 75 dB. That's a single watt or less with my maggies at my listening distance.

There is a physical law of the universe we inhabit (at least our four dimensions- i can't speak to the other 8 or so) that sbsolutely prevents an amp from supplying more power than the voltage gain requires in light of the impedance. Ohm's law. Junior high school level knowledge but you can google it unless junior high school is faster than you want to run.

So when the desired listening level in light of speaker sensitivity and impedance calls for 10 watts, a 500 watt amp literally cannot provide different power than a 20 watt amp. Just like it cannot defy gravity and float into the clouds. The way the world works. Often described as the laws of physics.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:35 PM
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Junior high school level knowledge but you can google it unless junior high school is faster than you want to run.

What exactly are you saying?

Quote:
So when the desired listening level in light of speaker sensitivity and impedance calls for 10 watts, a 500 watt amp literally cannot provide different power than a 20 watt amp. Just like it cannot defy gravity and float into the clouds. The way the world works. Often described as the laws of physics.

Okay, I accept the technicals behind it -- but then what circumstances dictate that a separate monster power amp is required...would it just be for powering a commercial cinema?

5.1: ONKYO TX-SR605B - oppo BDP-83 - SONY KDS-50A2020 SXRD
Mains: polkaudio RTi12 - Center: polkaudio CSi30 - Surrounds: SpeakerCraft Preinstalled In-Ceiling - Sub: polkaudio PSW350 - Auralex Acoustics SubDude - MONSTER PowerCenter HT700
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ONKYO TX-8555 - marantz CC4001 - TASCAM CD-RW900SL PROFESSIONAL - Numark CDMIX 1 PROFESSIONAL
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:42 PM
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What exactly are you saying?




Okay, I accept the technicals behind it -- but then what circumstances dictate that a separate monster power amp is required...would it just be for powering a commercial cinema?
I am saying i learned ohm's law in school when i was 12 ot 13 years old, and so did everybody in the class. It does not require high levels of technical competence to grasp. A decision not to try to grasp it seems like an intentional refusal to understand the basics so reality doesn't interfere with hanging onto beliefs that cannot be true.

And ftr i thought for longer than i would care to admit that somehow the greater power would make a difference even in low power situations. I was silly and perhaps viewing speakers anthropomorphically, like they could see or feel or smell or taste the added power in the amp. I wuz full o ****e.

Big power is only needed when it is needed. Big rooms, long distances to speakers, inefficient speakers, high peak levels may require high power. Peaks are a bitch even if they only last a twentieth of a second. A 20 dB peak requires 100 times the power of the average. Whether the speaker can reproduce the peak without distortion or compression also enters into what you hear. I believe but could not prove my little paradigms plus sub could cleanly hit peaks at 95dB or so (consistent with my real listening levels) but I would not even bet five bucks they can do 105 dB, as required for reference level.
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Old 07-21-2014, 04:09 AM
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People say the same crap about my former magnepans. Either they are imagining things or pushing the speakers into compression and distortion.
My listening habits put average levels around 75 dB. That's a single watt or less with my maggies at my listening distance.

There is a physical law of the universe we inhabit (at least our four dimensions- i can't speak to the other 8 or so) that sbsolutely prevents an amp from supplying more power than the voltage gain requires in light of the impedance. Ohm's law. Junior high school level knowledge but you can google it unless junior high school is faster than you want to run.

So when the desired listening level in light of speaker sensitivity and impedance calls for 10 watts, a 500 watt amp literally cannot provide different power than a 20 watt amp. Just like it cannot defy gravity and float into the clouds. The way the world works. Often described as the laws of physics.
One area that is sometimes over looked with AVR's is power rating vs reality. My local Anthem dealer helped convince me that a company's reputation carries some merit. They have this link on their website to a Sherwood 100 watt x 7 channel AVR that when put on a test bench couldn't exceed 5 watts a channel. Not good if your speakers need a wee bit more.
LINK: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...-labs-measures

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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Old 07-21-2014, 04:18 AM
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Don,


I appreciate what you're trying to do with the thread, but I don't think it's fair that some of us had comments that were deemed inappropriate removed when people like Arny can get away with saying "I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people.." wherein it feels like a quasi-threat leading to a baiting for argument; I've seen this tactic used countless times on forums like this. I don't think it's fair for his comment to remain while some others' were removed...


Just my opinion.
Then don't take the bait.

WRONG: "I demand you prove your point with a link. I don't think you know what you're talking about!!"

RIGHT: I'd really like to see a link, please.

The first one will get you banned from the thread. I'm just saying to stop addressing and slamming each other. This is a SCIENCE forum. Approach posts that way, please.

Did I miss some? It's possible. I'm a volunteer handling tons of reported posts and trying to clean up multiple threads often while I'm AT work and using a smartphone. I'm gonna miss some.
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