Are Separates Worth It? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Compared to an expensive home, automobile, or boat, an expensive audio system costs chump change. I don't think how aware you are of how your opviously poor writing skills suggests cost cutting in the area of education, another area of major expense in my community.
Did you mean obviously ?
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post #182 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback

But for the scientific community on this thread - - the bias test, measurements, etc. - - they would say:
  1. There is no audible difference between solid state and tube amps
  2. There is no audible difference between an AVR or using separates - no need for separates
  3. There is no audible difference between a CD and a High Res file
  4. There is no audible difference between Bluray players
  5. There is no difference between hamburger and filet mignon - it's all beef.


You might do well to speak only for yourself. It is actually quite presumptive to stuff words into the mouths of people that you seem to disrespect.

All of the things you mention may sound different depending on the operational circumstances and the choice of alternatives.

Or not.

RFB Response: Arny - I haven't disrespected anyone. That's not my point. Did you disagree with any of my 1-4 statements? (Statement 5. was an attempt at humor...)

I'll bet you bottom dollar that you are in agreement with 1 - 4 because I've read your posts. And I read them because I do value the "science" and your background. I completely agree with Statement 3. about High Res files from comparison - - listening to some samples and my old CD's. And, after "Bi-Wiring" with my Pioneer SC65, I determined that it really didn't make any difference and you were right (I tested both ways - - not scientifically, but enough to sh$t can the extra wires.)

It seems the scientific side of this discussion is very binary - - separates are of no value, no audible difference. It's black or white - - period. I can flat tell you that I'm listening at lower levels and it sounds clearer to me with the separate amplifier versus my Pioneer SC65 alone. I can see it on the volume settings. I guess that isn't science but it is a measurable difference.

Multichannel SACD's have more separation - - especially 5.1 with the separate amp.

So in closing, if someone was looking for advice on separates - - the scientific message would be that they do not make a difference and if you think they do, you are wrong. Buy the cheapest AVR you can with 50 to 90 wpc and you're good to go. Buy any Bluray you can because digital is digital. Forget about the "tube sound" because it's just your imagination. Science proves otherwise. I'm not in that camp.

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Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
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post #183 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback

But for the scientific community on this thread - - the bias test, measurements, etc. - - they would say:
  1. There is no audible difference between solid state and tube amps
  2. There is no audible difference between an AVR or using separates - no need for separates
  3. There is no audible difference between a CD and a High Res file
  4. There is no audible difference between Bluray players
  5. There is no difference between hamburger and filet mignon - it's all beef.

You might do well to speak only for yourself. It is actually quite presumptive to stuff words into the mouths of people that you seem to disrespect.

All of the things you mention may sound different depending on the operational circumstances and the choice of alternatives.

Or not.

RFB Response: Arny - I haven't disrespected anyone. That's not my point. Did you disagree with any of my 1-4 statements? (Statement 5. was an attempt at humor...)

I'll bet you bottom dollar that you are in agreement with 1 - 4 because I've read your posts. And I read them because I do value the "science" and your background. I completely agree with Statement 3. about High Res files from comparison - - listening to some samples and my old CD's. And, after "Bi-Wiring" with my Pioneer SC65, I determined that it really didn't make any difference and you were right (I tested both ways - - not scientifically, but enough to sh$t can the extra wires.)

It seems the scientific side of this discussion is very binary - - separates are of no value, no audible difference. It's black or white - - period. I can flat tell you that I'm listening at lower levels and it sounds clearer to me with the separate amplifier versus my Pioneer SC65 alone. I can see it on the volume settings. I guess that isn't science but it is a measurable difference.

Multichannel SACD's have more separation - - especially 5.1 with the separate amp.

So in closing, if someone was looking for advice on separates - - the scientific message would be that they do not make a difference and if you think they do, you are wrong. Buy the cheapest AVR you can with 50 to 90 wpc and you're good to go. Buy any Bluray you can because digital is digital. Forget about the "tube sound" because it's just your imagination. Science proves otherwise. I'm not in that camp.

To get us to agree with your first 4 statements would require some modifiers. Let me improve them for you.


1. Most tube amplifiers sound audibly different from most solid state amplifiers although there are a few that have been found to be audibly the same as most solid state amplifiers. So I disagree with that statement entirely.


2. There is no audible difference between the amplifiers in an AVR and those in a high fidelity solid state outboard amp as long as they are operating within their design parameters. There are reasons other than sound quality to use an outboard. amp.


3. There is no difference between a CD and a high res file as long as they are two channel and are based on the same master. Most high res files, however, are remastered for the purpose so they do sound different.


4. There is no audible difference between Blu-ray players. I accept that comment as you wrote it. Modern DA converters do their job without any audible influence that I've ever encountered in a bias controlled listening test.
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post #184 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
How did you make the comparison between the D2V/P5 and your Onkyo/Sherbourn?
through extensive demo/listening here...

http://www.genesisaudio.com/

years ago....with the Integra clone of my Onkyo preamp


Warren

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post #185 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:48 PM
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C'mon guys. The OP simply wants to know if the Marantz combination will be worth the $$. This is the 185th post and the word "Marantz" has only been used a few times and somebody has already been banned from the thread. It's quite suprising how a simple question has turned into a civil war.
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post #186 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricoflashback

It seems the scientific side of this discussion is very binary - - separates are of no value, no audible difference. It's black or white - - period. I can flat tell you that I'm listening at lower levels and it sounds clearer to me with the separate amplifier versus my Pioneer SC65 alone. I can see it on the volume settings. I guess that isn't science but it is a measurable difference.



.
When you read the volume setting is the SPL measurement the same with and without the added amp? Or is the SPL level higher at any given AVR volume setting with the added amp?
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post #187 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
To get us to agree with your first 4 statements would require some modifiers. Let me improve them for you.

4. There is no audible difference between Blu-ray players. I accept that comment as you wrote it. Modern DA converters do their job without any audible influence that I've ever encountered in a bias controlled listening test.
Thanks for the VERY USEFULL info, I'll cancel my OPPO order, and run down to walmart, they got a 49 dollar player on sale this week for $39. Looks like the dog will get feed this week!
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post #188 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
Never understood why there's the automatic assumption that stuff built in China is inferior. If I owned an audio company, I would have my own QA to ensure the product was built to the engineering specs. If it was, and the components are of the proper quality, where's the concern?

I would assume the components are almost all Asian made anyway. Resistors, caps, transformers even ASICs. I suppose a US company could try to source as much parts as possible from the US and then build it. But my betting money is on most of the components being from Asia.
probably that due to the fact that many of the Asian companies built their higher end models in models in Japan and lower end in Malaysia

Denon...I think(?) still builds their 4520 in Japan....something tell me its replacement will not be

The other Asian flapship units...( when such units existed such as the denon 5308 or yamaha Z11) were built in Japan
Lower end models in China

Does this mean they are not building Asian flagship AVR's anymore?...
yes...for now anyway

Does this mean that the newer models are built to a lower standard

who knows?
You would have to have data on how many units were produced in each facility and the data on their failure rates


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post #189 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Thanks for the VERY USEFULL info, I'll cancel my OPPO order, and run down to walmart, they got a 49 dollar player on sale this week for $39. Looks like the dog will get feed this week!
well according to many in this thread

if you dont get the Walmart player...since there is no difference....you are wasting your money....

I dont subscribe to that idea


Warren
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post #190 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mpjmeyer View Post
C'mon guys. The OP simply wants to know if the Marantz combination will be worth the $$. This is the 185th post and the word "Marantz" has only been used a few times and somebody has already been banned from the thread. It's quite suprising how a simple question has turned into a civil war.
I would say the Marantz pre/pro is worth it

I would pass on the amp
I dont think any of the Asian amps offer much more than their top end AVRs do

the bench testing of the Asian separate amps is not very good....very "AVR Like"


Warren

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Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
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post #191 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
through extensive demo/listening here...

http://www.genesisaudio.com/

years ago....with the Integra clone of my Onkyo preamp


Warren
Is it safe to say that all was level matched in the same room and same speakers that were A/B back and forth. I would also assume you listened to each processor with each amp. Is this correct?
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post #192 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:17 PM
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To the people who don't hear any difference between any pre-amp/amp.

Your contention is that people hear differences because they believe and want to hear the difference.

If that is true - then the opposite is ALSO true - you don't hear the differences because you DON'T believe that there are sound differences.

Ergo - there is no one answer for this question.

After all, I know people who absolutely LOVE Beats and Bose. I mean they really sound "great"! They will not let you say otherwise. I know I've tried.
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Last edited by charmerci; 07-18-2014 at 02:24 PM.
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post #193 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Is it safe to say that all was level matched in the same room and same speakers that were A/B back and forth. I would also assume you listened to each processor with each amp. Is this correct?
same source material(mine) as well....Bourne Identity for HT and Fourplay's Energy CD for 2 channel

Both pre/pros with their prospective room correction engaged(Audessey, ARC) and both rooms sound treated

for HT the Integra was much closer in performance to the Anthem
Music was a much bigger difference( 2 channel) for the Anthem combo

was the Anthem combo in my budget...no

was it worth about 3x more money?
Not to me...though its a moot point since it was not in my budget anyway


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
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post #194 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post

If that is true - then the opposite is ALSO true - you don't hear the differences because you DON'T believe that there are sound differences.

.
thats a very good point


Warren

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Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer SC37 Celestion 305 speaker system
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post #195 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
To the people who don't hear any difference between any pre-amp/amp.

Your contention is that people hear differences because they believe and want to hear the difference.

If that is true - then the opposite is ALSO true - you don't hear the differences because you DON'T believe that there are sound differences.

Ergo - there is no one answer for this question.

After all, I know people who absolutely LOVE Beats and Bose.
Yep, some people just can't take the time to "stop to smell the roses". And want to ruin it for others, "misery loves company".
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post #196 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:32 PM
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As for the equipment made in Asia question, it's not where things are made. It's how equipment is design and how the parts are used.

Here's some basic reading.
http://avahifi.com/images/avahifi/ro.../ab1991-01.pdf
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post #197 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Is it safe to say that all was level matched in the same room and same speakers that were A/B back and forth. I would also assume you listened to each processor with each amp. Is this correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
same source material(mine) as well....Bourne Identity for HT and Fourplay's Energy CD for 2 channel

Both pre/pros with their prospective room correction engaged(Audessey, ARC) and both rooms sound treated

for HT the Integra was much closer in performance to the Anthem
Music was a much bigger difference( 2 channel) for the Anthem combo

was the Anthem combo in my budget...no

was it worth about 3x more money?
Not to me...though its a moot point since it was not in my budget anyway


Warren
Seems the answer to all my questions is no.
You can't make an objective comparison the way you did it.
Different rooms, different speakers, not level matched, different combination of amp and processor.
How do you know that one amp sounds different if you did none of the above?
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post #198 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:35 PM
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To simply answer the original poster's question (drum roll....)

No. Not for 99% of the HT buffs out there with middle-aged ears and moderate sized rooms. For the few for whom money is no object (and they are well represented on AVS), perhaps. Not because they'd be able to tell the difference between separates and a high quality, late-model, feature-loaded receiver like the Denon X4000 or the Marantz SR6007 at normal listening volumes, but because they can show off their very expensive system with all those components, half-inch thick cables and absurdly priced loudspeakers to their friends and bask in the accolades.

For some pretentious people with money to burn, that in and of itself is soooo worth it.
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post #199 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
To the people who don't hear any difference between any pre-amp/amp.

Your contention is that people hear differences because they believe and want to hear the difference.

If that is true - then the opposite is ALSO true - you don't hear the differences because you DON'T believe that there are sound differences.

Ergo - there is no one answer for this question.

After all, I know people who absolutely LOVE Beats and Bose. I mean they really sound "great"! They will not let you say otherwise. I know I've tried.
It is actually way more complex because biases occur on the subconscious level so we cannot perceive them let alone control them, assuming we are all humans here. All you can do is try to take the biases out of the picture which for now means double blind testing. Without it any rational person could reasonably conclude that sugar pills cure cancer, at least for those folks who are sufficiently superior to accommodate the wholesome values of sugar pills.

If you are human you cannot even predict your subconscious biases let alone control them. Heck,it is well established that if the person giving the test, whether it is sonics or drug effects, knows who is getting the placebo, they will through the subtleties of human communication skew the results by telegraphing their knowledge. No degree of intelligence or number of phds can defeat the astounding power of the human subconscious with dependable regularity. Simple reality.
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post #200 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
To the people who don't hear any difference between any pre-amp/amp.

Your contention is that people hear differences because they believe and want to hear the difference.

If that is true - then the opposite is ALSO true - you don't hear the differences because you DON'T believe that there are sound differences.

Ergo - there is no one answer for this question.

After all, I know people who absolutely LOVE Beats and Bose. I mean they really sound "great"!
They will not let you say otherwise. I know I've tried.
There are differences in speakers. Of course, you already knew that.
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post #201 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:47 PM
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It is actually way more complex because biases occur on the subconscious level so we cannot perceive them let alone control them, assuming we are all humans here. All you can do is try to take the biases out of the picture which for now means double blind testing. Without it any rational person could reasonably conclude that sugar pills cure cancer, at least for those folks who are sufficiently superior to accommodate the wholesome values of sugar pills.

If you are human you cannot even predict your subconscious biases let alone control them. Heck,it is well established that if the person giving the test, whether it is sonics or drug effects, knows who is getting the placebo, they will through the subtleties of human communication skew the results by telegraphing their knowledge. No degree of intelligence or number of phds can defeat the astounding power of the human subconscious with dependable regularity. Simple reality.
Of course. Placebos actually work to cure problems in 1/4 to 1/3 of most cases - very consistently over a huge range of tests/experiments. Explain that!
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post #202 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
To simply answer the original poster's question (drum roll....)

No. Not for 99% of the HT buffs out there with middle-aged ears and moderate sized rooms. For the few for whom money is no object (and they are well represented on AVS), perhaps. Not because they'd be able to tell the difference between separates and a high quality, late-model, feature-loaded receiver like the Denon X4000 or the Marantz SR6007 at normal listening volumes, but because they can show off their very expensive system with all those components, half-inch thick cables and absurdly priced loudspeakers to their friends and bask in the accolades.

For some pretentious people with money to burn, that in and of itself is soooo worth it.
Agree

We should be thankful there are rich and very rich and powerful people in this world. If everyone was poor and lazy, where would this world be. The top 1%ers do get the best this world has, but they are the driving force behind it, if it wasn't for them who would they build it for, who would pay for it. They make science/tech move forward. Luckly it trickles down even so the useless can even get some of the good stuff..Think about it...

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post #203 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:55 PM
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This debate will rage on for decades . If it sounds good to you no matter whether you have highend seperates or a mid level AVR more power to you . It really isn't worth debating as each side in this debate is not budging.

As to the OP's original question the 7701 and the 8807 would be a fine combo. Although I'd opt for the Denon X4000 to get XT32.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

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post #204 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 02:59 PM
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This debate will rage on for decades . If it sounds good to you no matter whether you have highend seperates or a mid level AVR more power to you . It really isn't worth debating as each side in this debate is not budging.

Bill
I think most of us already have the answers, just want to see them go down swinging But its not their fault, they may of just had a bad tech experience.

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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
I think most of us already have the answers, just want to see them go down swinging
I wouldn't say answers it's more like opinions.

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #206 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I wouldn't say answers it's more like opinions.

Bill
Opinions can be true and full of facts. And answers can be just wrong, but than it wouldn't be the answer.. So when you say opinion it really should mean less.
So your saying the cheapest crap sounds as good if not better than the over priced hardware, by calling it an opinion?
If you weren't having so much fun posting, tell us what you really believe, take your best guess.
Here most of us post from experience, if you want the same experience than do as I do..

Last edited by joehonest; 07-18-2014 at 03:35 PM.
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post #207 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Seems the answer to all my questions is no.
You can't make an objective comparison the way you did it.
Different rooms, different speakers, not level matched, different combination of amp and processor.
How do you know that one amp sounds different if you did none of the above?
I am sorry

I thought I was more clear in my answers
The answers to your questions is yes...

To add to this...I used my own source material cued up for chapters/tracks where I wanted to listen for specific timbre of sound from both vocals and instruments
Both demos in the same sound treated room at the store

Now...you can add what I didnt do and perhaps some conspiracy theory

Did I bring my speakers to the shop and utilize them with all the combinations.?..no
Perhaps my personal speakers could have made the Integra sound closer to the Anthem.

Doubtful...but its possible

Do I have the same room treatments as the the store did?
No...so perhaps the room treatments made me hear nuances I would not have heard at home and the units would have fared more closely

Again...doubtful as the room treatments would have made both units sound better, than my home, but the differences I suspect would have remained consistent

Is the Onkyo version not really a clone of the Integra and actually sounds better ?.
So.. the unit I have would have actually have sounded closer to the Anthem than the Integra did?
Doubtful

bottom line...I am 99.99% sure that the differences I heard would have remained consistent among any combination
And...again..its a moot point since the Anthem combo wasn't really in my budget anyway

Warren

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post #208 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Opinions can be true and full of facts. And answers can be just wrong, but than it wouldn't be the answer.. So when you say opinion it really should mean less.
So your saying the cheapest crap sounds as good if not better than the over priced hardware, by calling it an opinion?
If you weren't having so much fun posting, tell us what you really believe, take your best guess.
Here most of us post from experience, if you want the same experience than do as I do..
Is the above a Yogi Berra quote ? Where in any post did I say "the cheapest crap sounds as good if not better than the over priced hardware"? I'll pass on "do as I do..." as I like to deal in reality. I'll end it there as it is quite obvious you are not dealing with reality .

Bill
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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #209 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 04:19 PM
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To answer the post, you really need to hook up the Marantz in your set-up and listen.

How it sounds with your speakers vs what you have now. I swapped out some gear recently and the result was a harsh sound with my Revel M20s. I then hooked up the new gear in a different room with larger Revel F52s and no harshness. What's good in set-up A may not be so good in set-up B.
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post #210 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Agree

We should be thankful there are rich and very rich and powerful people in this world. If everyone was poor and lazy, where would this world be. The top 1%ers do get the best this world has, but they are the driving force behind it, if it wasn't for them who would they build it for, who would pay for it. They make science/tech move forward. Luckly it trickles down even so the useless can even get some of the good stuff..Think about it...
I hope you're joking, and I'll assume you are. The fact is that most of the one percenters out there work no harder, and are no smarter, than you or me. Many of them come by their phenomenal incomes simply by having the right connections, mentors or patrons... or have figured out a way to manipulate the capitalist system to their great advantage (see: hedge fund managers). There is no "trickle down" effect. That's a myth designed to manipulate the masses. A capitalist society's wealth is built from the middle class out, not from the upper class down. One look at income distribution over the last 30 years - and who all the wealth has gone to - will drive that point home.

But there is an upside! Confession time: I love looking at A/V porn. Not really for the performance - that's mostly a placebo effect as others here have noted. No, for the shear beauty of that stuff. Some of those tube amps make my little german soldier just stand at attention and grin. If it wasn't for the one percenters buying that stuff, it would never get made. And I'm glad it's made, even if I know I'll never be able to own it. As an HT buff, I'm just glad it's out there in the world. Like a Rembrandt or Picasso. Does that make sense? It does to me.
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