Are Separates Worth It? - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Agree

We should be thankful there are rich and very rich and powerful people in this world. If everyone was poor and lazy, where would this world be. The top 1%ers do get the best this world has, but they are the driving force behind it, if it wasn't for them who would they build it for, who would pay for it. They make science/tech move forward. Luckly it trickles down even so the useless can even get some of the good stuff..Think about it...
I hope you're joking, and I'll assume you are. The fact is that most of the one percenters out there work no harder, and are no smarter, than you or me. Many of them come by their phenomenal incomes simply by having the right connections, mentors or patrons... or have figured out a way to manipulate the capitalist system to their great advantage (see: hedge fund managers). There is no "trickle down" effect. That's a myth designed to manipulate the masses. A capitalist society's wealth is built from the middle class out, not from the upper class down. One look at income distribution over the last 30 years - and who all the wealth has gone to - will drive that point home.

But there is an upside! Confession time: I love looking at A/V porn. Not really for the performance - that's mostly a placebo effect as others here have noted. No, for the shear beauty of that stuff. Some of those tube amps make my little german soldier just stand at attention and grin. If it wasn't for the one percenters buying that stuff, it would never get made. And I'm glad it's made, even if I know I'll never be able to own it. As an HT buff, I'm just glad it's out there in the world. Like a Rembrandt or Picasso. Does that make sense? It does to me.
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post #212 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Agree

We should be thankful there are rich and very rich and powerful people in this world. If everyone was poor and lazy, where would this world be. The top 1%ers do get the best this world has, but they are the driving force behind it, if it wasn't for them who would they build it for, who would pay for it. They make science/tech move forward. Luckly it trickles down even so the useless can even get some of the good stuff..Think about it...
The implicit assumption that poor people are lazy is wrong headed and offensive. Those of us who live in the US and follow sports can recall manyvstories of great atheletes who grew up poor depite parents who worked multiple jobs to mske ends meet.

On balance rich folks might pay for a few million dollars of high end equipment snd or a few hundred million dollars worth of expensive yachts. Neither is advancing engineering or design meaningfully. The relevant discoveries are decades and centuries old. The rich are not huying cutting edge science because nobody has, for example, created a product that leverages string theory or the existence of black holes. Rich people's stuff is gussied up regular stuff . . .

It is all fine and good and I like nice things too but to imagine the wealthy's expenditures are improving housing or electronics or whatever is imo close to insanity.
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post #213 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 04:48 PM
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Multiple posts. Sorry.

Last edited by JHAz; 07-18-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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post #214 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 04:54 PM
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Insane phone multiple posts

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post #215 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Yep, some people just can't take the time to "stop to smell the roses". And want to ruin it for others, "misery loves company".
You misunderstand us completely. We aren't trying to ruin anything. We are just trying to reduce the misinformation available on this forum.
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post #216 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
Of course. Placebos actually work to cure problems in 1/4 to 1/3 of most cases - very consistently over a huge range of tests/experiments. Explain that!
Screw explaining it. Let's blame the folks who cannot heal themselves. Clearly we are inferior in some way.
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post #217 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 05:11 PM
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Time to kill this thread dead. It's too far gone. I can't even believe how far gone it is. IMO, please keep a sense of proportion on this. It's just audio!

"But this one goes up to 11"

Last edited by MichaelJHuman; 07-18-2014 at 05:16 PM.
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post #218 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 05:21 PM
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unsuscribed
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post #219 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
The implicit assumption that poor people are lazy is wrong headed and offensive. Those of us who live in the US and follow sports can recall manyvstories of great atheletes who grew up poor depite parents who worked multiple jobs to mske ends meet.

On balance rich folks might pay for a few million dollars of high end equipment snd or a few hundred million dollars worth of expensive yachts. Neither is advancing engineering or design meaningfully. The relevant discoveries are decades and centuries old. The rich are not huying cutting edge science because nobody has, for example, created a product that leverages string theory or the existence of black holes. Rich people's stuff is gussied up regular stuff . . .

It is all fine and good and I like nice things too but to imagine the wealthy's expenditures are improving housing or electronics or whatever is imo close to insanity.
gussied up regular stuff?

I am not wealthy by any stretch

However...there are major differences in what constitutes average and what is defined typically as high end

Its not as simple as gussied up

I diagree with you on the fact that those with that level of income,taste and desire dont drive the level of innovation

take the new Mercedes S class.....a technological marvel by anyone's definition
Its more than a gussied up car..IMO
An automobile I wish I could afford...however buying a $100K car is not in the cards for me

Its completely cutting edge and is an automobile that the vast majority are sold right here in the United States

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post #220 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 05:31 PM
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We are close to Godwin's law here

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #221 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 05:36 PM
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In a < $75,000 dedicated home theater, no. If you're using the system 75% of the time for movies or TV and video, No. If your music tastes run along the rock and roll, popular music genres, or country, then no you won't gain much by going to separates. It's voices and crashes and explosions and gun shots, sounds where the steering capability of the processor and imaging properties and sensitivity of the speakers that make a system stand out. If you're a true audiophile then you'll have a separate set-up, probably in a different room for serious music listening.
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post #222 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 06:08 PM
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Build the room according to an acoustic analysis and it will be superb for 2 channel or multichannel.
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post #223 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 06:14 PM
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If you want to look cool and sophisticated go with separates.. If you want to look like you shop at Walmart go AVR... Forget all the technical talk.. It's all about looks and perception.
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post #224 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevon27 View Post
If you want to look cool and sophisticated go with separates.. If you want to look like you shop at Walmart go AVR... Forget all the technical talk.. It's all about looks and perception.

Well, my rig is mainly for listening. Looks are a side issue.
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post #225 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 07:46 PM
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I started with AVR's and was not satisfied with the power or features offered by the equipment I purchased. I found the sound modes to cheesy and not use able. After several Denon and a few Pioneers Elites I decided to make the break to separates. I purchased Acurus Power Amps (200Wx3) and for the rear's the same manufacture different model A2 (200Wx2). The Amps were a reasonable price and at the time AVR did not put out this kind of Power. I added a lexicon pre amp processor DC1 started with the base line unit and fully upgraded it took three years. Going with separates gave me more flexibility. The sound modes available on the lexicon were excellent and covered the area's that I required for both movies and music. The lexicon also had a full complement of inputs and output for digital application which again at the time were not available on the lower level AVR's. I'm still using the amps to this day they are over 15 yrs old. I started out in the Lase Disc just so you know how long I have been enjoying music and movies. Two years ago I upgraded to a 55" Samsung flat panel and the process had to start over due to HDMI interconnect. Like I said i'm still using the Amps purchased a Integra 80.1 pre-processor a new set of speakers B&W CM8 and CM center channel kept my rears B&W dipole DS6. Upgrade the sub to velodyne DD 12. I'm a happy camper however still chasing the prefect affordable sound for me final addition was a OPPO 105 multi disc player. Of course I would like the more expensive stuff but you can only buy what you can afford. Believe me the people that are blowing out there system with good equipment weather it be separate or not are enjoying excellent sound. Is'n that what its all about getting the best possible sound for your money. Looking at a new power amp Macintosh 7X2000W.
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post #226 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 07:56 PM
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Uhm.. don't see a lot of talk about the topic these past few posts. Let's see if we can get back on track. Thanks.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #227 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 08:02 PM
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Uhm.. don't see a lot of talk about the topic these past few posts. Let's see if we can get back on track. Thanks.
Seems like the question has been answered.
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post #228 of 371 Old 07-18-2014, 09:53 PM
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For most people, even enthusiasts, getting an external amplifier doesn't make any sense. It's been shown that people can't tell the difference between different amps when they are driven within their operating range. Most people don't realize they don't use more than 10 watts for general listening. I've sat at watched the gauge on a Macintosh amp costing 10s of thousands of dollars, during music playback at moderate listening levels the speakers were only utilizing 1-2 watts with peaks hitting 5 watts. Mind you these amps were capable of 500 watts and the speakers they were powering weren't particularly efficient.

It only makes sense considering getting an external amp for your AVR if the following apply.

-Speakers are horrendously inefficient
-Listening area is massive
-Your playback levels are belligerent

Or any combination of those.

If you want separates so you don't have to change out the entire AVR every few years to gain extra features that's fine. However, if your looking for a sound quality improvement, your looking in the wrong place unless you have something atypical going on as listen above. Spend the money on room treatments or better speakers, stuff that's actually easy to quantify.
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post #229 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 03:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci View Post
Of course. Placebos actually work to cure problems in 1/4 to 1/3 of most cases - very consistently over a huge range of tests/experiments. Explain that!
The above is true when it comes to health problems in humans, but it is most definitely not true when it comes to say, repairing automobiles.

So, the question becomes how are humans different from cars? One very obvious differences is that the bodies of living things have very strong capabilities for self-repair. Cars just can't do that. If part of your skin gets a hole worn in it, generally a few days later it heals over and the hole is gone. If your car has a worn body or a hole in its skin the hole stays there until someone intentionally repairs it. The same it true of your audio system - it has no ability to repair itself. Blow the output transistors in your amp, and they stay blown indefinitely.

The consequences of placeboes are generally indistinguishable from normal bodily and mental self-repair. And that easily explains why placeboes appear to effect a cure in so many cases.
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post #230 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 03:17 AM
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I was watching How Stuff is Made, and they showed the McIntosh MC 275 tube amp. Now there's an amp worth having, if I had that kind of disposable funds just for it's looks. And I would never try to convince people I bought it for the sound. I would say I bought it as amplifier art.
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"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #231 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post
Well, my rig is mainly for listening. Looks are a side issue.
But you have to admit (and I'm sure you would based on your handle) - Marantz makes some pretty sexy gear. They look damn good sitting in a living room. And, given the difficulty the average person has discerning quantifiable measurements of audio improvement, that's not an unreasonable reason to buy them.
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post #232 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 06:59 AM
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Great sound and great looks - Dynaudio Confidence C2 Signatures in Mocha.
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post #233 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1
otherwise we would all be buying the least expensive A/V piece out there and saving our money
That is an excluded middle argument. Making reasonable choices does not necessarily mean buying the least expensive thing.

For example it is a technical fact that spending $500-1,000 on an Oppo BD player makes no sense if you are going to attach it to the rest of your system with a piece of HDMI cable because HDMI bypasses the majority of the high quality circuitry in the Oppo.

RFB: There might not be any discernible difference in the audio quality with an OPPO & a low cost Bluray Player via HDMI, but there is a noticeable difference in the video quality when I'm using my projector - BenQ W1080 ST - 100" 16 X 9 screen. I also have an older Sony Bluray player that I keep in the chain for Amazon Prime streaming. To me, it's a better picture with the projector via the OPPO 103 as opposed to Sony - - direct comparison via a Bluray disc. On my smaller 65" Sammy LCD/LED - - you can't tell as much difference. (Turns out that I don't stream that much anymore because I like the quality of Bluray & I have multiple Redbox locations near my house and at $1.62 for a Bluray movie - - that's not a bad price.)

I also use my OPPO 103's Analog outputs for two channel stereo via the Parasound 2100 Stereo Preamplifier. One of the best additions to my home theater setup as it seamlessly integrates HT with 2 channel sound. (Sub off - - strictly two channel with the PS2100)

Everyone (well, most everyone) likes to save money and if you can match price with performance - - then you've got the best of both worlds. If you can get a killer deal on a quality product (even used - in good shape) then that is another avenue to upgrade your equipment without paying top dollar.

I do not buy the most expensive equipment out there. And I always shop for the best deal. I think there is a step above the very least expensive product and if you do your homework and match/compare features & functionality, you can get the best sound/video quality for your budget.

I chose separates after wanting a little more punch out of my 7.1 HT setup. And I did not buy the most expensive amplifier out there. (I couldn't, anyway!) I researched the web and read as much as I could about "Class D" amplifiers since I was used to the sound with my Pioneer SC65 (now in "Preamp" mode). I ended up with the Wyred 4 Sound MMC 7.1 at 221 wpc.

I also have physical limitations with respect to Class A/B amplifiers due to the size of my equipment rack and I had a concern about electrical consumption - - having to change any breakers in my basement "man cave." While a Class A/B amp might sound better (lots of discussion about this topic) - - it didn't fit my buying criteria.

To protect my equipment, I went with a Furman Elite PFi Linear Filtering AC Power Source. It's not the most expensive out there but it it's worked well for me.

If sound quality and getting the best out of your system is your objective - - whether it be music or movies, separates or not, there is a middle ground where you can drive the price/performance equation. And if you can compare separates versus an integrated AVR - - then make they decision based on what you like and what your budget can afford. If you can test out any equipment in your listening/viewing environment - - then all the better. Above all - - enjoy. This is a hobby and should be a fun experience.

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Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
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ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
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post #234 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Marantz guy View Post
Hmm

I wonder how many folks participating in this thread have their arguments based on appearance?
Many who feel that way; few who would admit it here. It is a factor for me. I'm an architect. Good design occupies a higher priority for me than most, I will admit. Is it most important with regard to A/V gear? No. Not to me, not to you, but to some, yes.
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post #235 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by gibroni View Post
In a < $75,000 dedicated home theater, no. If you're using the system 75% of the time for movies or TV and video, No. If your music tastes run along the rock and roll, popular music genres, or country, then no you won't gain much by going to separates. It's voices and crashes and explosions and gun shots, sounds where the steering capability of the processor and imaging properties and sensitivity of the speakers that make a system stand out. If you're a true audiophile then you'll have a separate set-up, probably in a different room for serious music listening.
I'm curious about undertanding why a good sounding system in a good sounding room will handle everything except jazz and classical music? For some reason jazz and classica music need different equipment in a different room? That is not an intuitive position.
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post #236 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by vatore View Post
Thinking about going from my Denon 5308ci to separates. Do they really sound that much better? Looking at the Marantz AV7701 and MM8807.

Any suggestions, advice, ideas?
For what you have now no, But if you go with AV8801 and Parasound A51 amp that will sound better.
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post #237 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Orbitron View Post
Great sound and great looks - Dynaudio Confidence C2 Signatures in Mocha.
I think you get a smoother frequency response with mocha and a more laid back presentation. You want to stay away from red.
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post #238 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
I'm curious about undertanding why a good sounding system in a good sounding room will handle everything except jazz and classical music? For some reason jazz and classica music need different equipment in a different room? That is not an intuitive position.
Would a dedicated, smaller room for two channel listening (stereo) be potentially better than a larger theater room designed for movies?

Home Theater Setup
Samsung UN65ES8000 LCD/LED
BenQ W1080ST Projector
Pioneer SC65 (Pre-Amp)
Wyred4Sound MMC-7 Channel Amplifier, 221wpc
OPPO 103, Directv GENIE
Darbee Darblet
ALL Paradigm - 7.1 - Studio 60's, V.2 (FL/FR)
CC-690, V.5 (C)
ADP 590 V.5 (SS)
MilleniaOne 2.0 (BS) - Velodyne 810 Sub
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post #239 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 09:44 AM
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That depends. Small monitors would have a hard time filling a large space. I do not have a home that is configured for a theater and dedicated 2 channel space. I run large 3 way speakers which have no trouble filling my 15x30 space with very good sounding stereo music.
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post #240 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW View Post
I'm curious about undertanding why a good sounding system in a good sounding room will handle everything except jazz and classical music? For some reason jazz and classica music need different equipment in a different room? That is not an intuitive position.
I wondered that too. I would have thought that fidelity is fidelity. Whether you care about the highest fidelity is a personal choice. I know many rock songs that are well mixed and mastered and I would not mind having the highest fidelity for playing them back. Others are not so well mixed, and sound like a bit of a mess, and having a bit less fidelity hardly matter.

If you read Douglas Self's amplifier book, he feels his blameless amplifier concept, in which the amplifier has sufficiently low distortion, you can see where it hardly costs more to build an amp correctly. It's mostly design, the parts are just standard amplifier parts. You do have to use quality resistors such as metal film in the audio path vs carbon, but that doesn't add much to the price, and may be standard these days anyway. I read nothing which convinced me the amplifier needed to be expensive.

I am not sure why a good processor need cost much either. Yamaha can load up a box with all the latest processing and features and put amps into it for one to two thousand. Removing the amps should drop the prices hundreds of dollars as that eliminates expensive output transistors, expensive big transformer and expensive big caps. You still need a power supply, but not one that has to power seven amps. Of course they could then spend a bit on better DACs in case it mattered and anything else in the analog audio path.

I see that people expect that if you keep spending more money you keep getting better sound. IMO, it does not work that way, and many engineers don't think it works that way. But it's not for me to tell people how to spend their money, or tell them what they can and can't hear. I am just explaining my own beliefs on the subject.

"But this one goes up to 11"
MichaelJHuman is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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