Are Separates Worth It? - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
Would a dedicated, smaller room for two channel listening (stereo) be potentially better than a larger theater room designed for movies?
Not in my experience.
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post #242 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I see that people expect that if you keep spending more money you keep getting better sound. IMO, it does not work that way, and many engineers don't think it works that way. But it's not for me to tell people how to spend their money, or tell them what they can and can't hear. I am just explaining my own beliefs on the subject.
It is that expectation that keeps the high end going. Hearing bias will almost guarantee that you will hear what you expect to hear.
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post #243 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
gussied up regular stuff?

I am not wealthy by any stretch

However...there are major differences in what constitutes average and what is defined typically as high end

Its not as simple as gussied up

I diagree with you on the fact that those with that level of income,taste and desire dont drive the level of innovation

take the new Mercedes S class.....a technological marvel by anyone's definition
Its more than a gussied up car..IMO
An automobile I wish I could afford...however buying a $100K car is not in the cards for me

Its completely cutting edge and is an automobile that the vast majority are sold right here in the United States

Warren
"Gussied up" is not a precise scientific term so you can feel however you feel about it. So can I.
Afaik mb is not conducting or funding any basic science research. They use existing discoveries to enhace their vehicles. But they didn't invent leather or ergonomics even though for long trips an mb is the most comfortable car I have been in. Never sat in a Volvo for a long drive but their sests are arguably more comfortable in the short term ime.

Ftr ford didn't invent the technology that underlies their foot activated hatch, either, although I think it looks cool for those times when you need it.

Amp desigers are using science that is decades old. Nobody in the high end business even makes let alone invented their own output devices or even their own output modes. With the possible exception of B&O's amps, although I assume that's an implementation of decade(s) old science, too.
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post #244 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
"Gussied up" is not a precise scientific term so you can feel however you feel about it. So can I.
Afaik mb is not conducting or funding any basic science research. They use existing discoveries to enhace their vehicles. But they didn't invent leather or ergonomics even though for long trips an mb is the most comfortable car I have been in. Never sat in a Volvo for a long drive but their sests are arguably more comfortable in the short term ime.

Ftr ford didn't invent the technology that underlies their foot activated hatch, either, although I think it looks cool for those times when you need it.
I have never been in a MB that is as comfortable as a Lexus. This is subjective as you know.
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post #245 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
I have never been in a MB that is as comfortable as a Lexus. This is subjective as you know.
No it's not! My ass is simply more refined than yours.
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post #246 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 03:47 PM
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No it's not! My ass is simply more refined than yours.
Your ass must be numb to sit on those rock hard seats.
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post #247 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post
"Gussied up" is not a precise scientific term so you can feel however you feel about it. So can I.
Afaik mb is not conducting or funding any basic science research. They use existing discoveries to enhace their vehicles. But they didn't invent leather or ergonomics even though for long trips an mb is the most comfortable car I have been in. Never sat in a Volvo for a long drive but their sests are arguably more comfortable in the short term ime.

Ftr ford didn't invent the technology that underlies their foot activated hatch, either, although I think it looks cool for those times when you need it.

Amp desigers are using science that is decades old. Nobody in the high end business even makes let alone invented their own output devices or even their own output modes. With the possible exception of B&O's amps, although I assume that's an implementation of decade(s) old science, too.
no one is denying that any basic functionality is not shared among anything that performs the function

Engineering , specific parts and design implementation can make all the difference

The argument thought is somewhat unfair....if a manufacturer is building to a price point...aka Ford...then there are inherent limitations in what they can do

If they on the other had a much broader reign of what they can invest in the items technology because their market will pay for it....then that is another thing all together

hence the reason comparing the same item at vastly different price points doesn't make sense

Audio example....compare the new Yamaha CX-A5000 at $2999 MSRP to the Krell reference prepro at $30K MSRP
Comparing them is goofy
I bet Yamaha built to a price point and Krell pretty much built the best they could and let the price fall where it was knowing they would have a market

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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
I have never been in a MB that is as comfortable as a Lexus. This is subjective as you know.
That is the way it is supposed to be
Lexus is definitely more of a cushy car
The last one I drove was a LS460 from a few years ago.....cushy, soft and quiet was my take away from that car
At the time I owned a BMW....which I highly prefer
The Germans are stiffer and more taught by design

Others may like the softer Lexus better

YMMV

Warren

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Last edited by turnne1; 07-19-2014 at 04:58 PM.
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post #248 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Your ass must be numb to sit on those rock hard seats.
and you must like that cushy sofa like ride with no feedback and sloppy handling...


Warren

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post #249 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
That is the way it is supposed to be
Lexus is definitely more of a cushy car
The last one I drove was a LS460 from a few years ago.....cushy, soft and quiet was my take away from that car
At the time I owned a BMW....which I highly prefer
The Germans are stiffer and more taught by design

Others may like the softer Lexus better

YMMV

Warren
I can't afford a BMW. Repairs are too expensive.



Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
and you must like that cushy sofa like ride with no feedback and sloppy handling...

Warren
My response was about comfort. For handling my choice would not be BMW, Lexus of MB.
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post #250 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
I can't afford a BMW. Repairs are too expensive.





My response was about comfort. For handling my choice would not be BMW, Lexus of MB.
no more expensive than Lexus repairs

you like cars that have sloppy handling?...

Warren

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post #251 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:23 PM
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Interesting; this is something I have been contemplating for awhile myself...and there seems to be no true "consensus" on whether or not separate amps make any kind of "difference" or not as compared to integrated receivers...


Case in point: I'm running an Onkyo 605 which is still going strong to this day (bought it brand new when it was first released) and I also have gigantic, imposing Polk RTi12s as my main channels...now, the entire Western civilized world (and perhaps some from third-world, uncivilized parts of the globe, who knows) advised me that I would NEVER, EVER in a MILLION LIGHT YEARS have anywhere near "enough" power to drive these speakers with my AVR, even if I was running 'em "small" and crossed over at 60Hz, with a sub taking care of the rest. In reality, the speakers have been just fine with this AVR in surround mode, NEVER exhibiting ANY distortion at any level I play the system at nor exhibiting any signs of distress, clipping, fatiguing, etc.


Now, I realize that in order to add an external amp to my system I would first need to change my AVR because the 605 doesn't have preamp outputs...but I'm wondering just how powerful an amp I would need to "open up" the RTi12s even more, or which way I should go (i.e. two channel, three channel, monoblocks)...and then what about the "line level converter" option, which would allow me to add an amp with this "adapter" that would connect to the speaker level outputs and convert them to preamp level so I can use my current AVR...is this a viable option?

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post #252 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Interesting; this is something I have been contemplating for awhile myself...and there seems to be no true "consensus" on whether or not separate amps make any kind of "difference" or not as compared to integrated receivers...


Case in point: I'm running an Onkyo 605 which is still going strong to this day (bought it brand new when it was first released) and I also have gigantic, imposing Polk RTi12s as my main channels...now, the entire Western civilized world (and perhaps some from third-world, uncivilized parts of the globe, who knows) advised me that I would NEVER, EVER in a MILLION LIGHT YEARS have anywhere near "enough" power to drive these speakers with my AVR, even if I was running 'em "small" and crossed over at 60Hz, with a sub taking care of the rest. In reality, the speakers have been just fine with this AVR in surround mode, NEVER exhibiting ANY distortion at any level I play the system at nor exhibiting any signs of distress, clipping, fatiguing, etc.


Now, I realize that in order to add an external amp to my system I would first need to change my AVR because the 605 doesn't have preamp outputs...but I'm wondering just how powerful an amp I would need to "open up" the RTi12s even more, or which way I should go (i.e. two channel, three channel, monoblocks)...and then what about the "line level converter" option, which would allow me to add an amp with this "adapter" that would connect to the speaker level outputs and convert them to preamp level so I can use my current AVR...is this a viable option?
based on what you have described I dont think you need more power since you are satisfied with what you have

why dont you just buy a newer more powerful AVR?

I would say the newer....with more features, would be more of what you are looking for than more power

Warren

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post #253 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
no more expensive than Lexus repairs

Warren
Just a lot more frequent!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
you like cars that have sloppy handling?...
Warren
When did I say that? I only said that the cars mentioned would not be my choice purely for handling.
I actually prefer the 1/4 mile to curves. Less danger of harming others.
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post #254 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Just a lot more frequent!!



When did I say that? I only said that the cars mentioned would not be my choice purely for handling.
I actually prefer the 1/4 mile to curves. Less danger of harming others.
there is a price to pay for driving perfection...clearly many are willing to pay it...

I dont want to feel like I am sitting on my living room sofa while driving.....just my choice


Warren

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post #255 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
The above is obviously an unfounded opinion as stated. No relevant evidence has been provided.

If it is your position that " Separates offer higher performance than an AVR" and no amount of reasoned discussion or relevant facts could possibly change your mind, then it is useless to discuss the matter with you. You have placed yourself into a logic-tight box.

Given how you have dismissed contrary evidence in an issue that you raised, being the country of origin, it would appear that nothing is going to change your mind.

Have a nice day!
Hey, he cleared stated that it was "in his opinion" based on his personal experience and you jump on it as "unfounded opinion."

Stop jumping on people for what they experience when they don't agree with you. Geez.
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post #256 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:48 PM
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Hey, he cleared stated that it was "in his opinion" based on his personal experience and you jump on it as "unfounded opinion."

Stop jumping on people for what they experience when they don't agree with you. Geez.
He likes to speculate on extremely limited information and debate subjective outcomes


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post #257 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
based on what you have described I dont think you need more power since you are satisfied with what you have

why dont you just buy a newer more powerful AVR?

I would say the newer....with more features, would be more of what you are looking for than more power

Warren

Hello Warren and Thank You for the Response...


It's not that I don't "want" to buy a newer AVR, but there are some other elements at play here: First, I don't really find a need to take advantage of the features so heavily loaded on today's receivers...I don't stream anything, I don't use networking, I don't use auto-setup programs and I don't use EQ. If I went with a new AVR, it would be to just have the preamp output option; but because I'm satisfied with my current AVR's processing and feature set, that's why I was contemplating getting one of those "line level converters"...


I'd like to add a power amp down the road just to have the comfort of knowing "gobs and gobs of raw power are there if needed"...know what I mean? Like a reserve, which I don't feel I have now -- sure, I never get the Onkyo to anywhere near maximum volume levels, but it would be nice to know I have a muscle amp behind the system for those times I want to get into theater-like levels...

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post #258 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Hello Warren and Thank You for the Response...


It's not that I don't "want" to buy a newer AVR, but there are some other elements at play here: First, I don't really find a need to take advantage of the features so heavily loaded on today's receivers...I don't stream anything, I don't use networking, I don't use auto-setup programs and I don't use EQ. If I went with a new AVR, it would be to just have the preamp output option; but because I'm satisfied with my current AVR's processing and feature set, that's why I was contemplating getting one of those "line level converters"...


I'd like to add a power amp down the road just to have the comfort of knowing "gobs and gobs of raw power are there if needed"...know what I mean? Like a reserve, which I don't feel I have now -- sure, I never get the Onkyo to anywhere near maximum volume levels, but it would be nice to know I have a muscle amp behind the system for those times I want to get into theater-like levels...
I understand

But

I suggest you buy a higher end newer AVR.....I think will give you ample power and spend less than you would for separates
That being said...if you have to have separates
Then buy the least expensive AVR with preamp outputs and then buy a multichannel amp for it


Warren

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post #259 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricoflashback View Post
There might not be any discernible difference in the audio quality with an OPPO & a low cost Bluray Player via HDMI, but there is a noticeable difference in the video quality when I'm using my projector - BenQ W1080 ST - 100" 16 X 9 screen. I also have an older Sony Bluray player that I keep in the chain for Amazon Prime streaming. To me, it's a better picture with the projector via the OPPO 103 as opposed to Sony - - direct comparison via a Bluray disc. On my smaller 65" Sammy LCD/LED - - you can't tell as much difference. (Turns out that I don't stream that much anymore because I like the quality of Bluray & I have multiple Redbox locations near my house and at $1.62 for a Bluray movie - - that's not a bad price.)


Fact is that the video processing on the new Oppo BD players is performed by Marvell Qdeo chips. According to Marvell's web site, http://www.marvell.com/digital-entertainment/qdeo/ the following products use Marvell Qdeo chips:

Onkyo TX-NR5009 and TX-NR3009 Receivers
Cambridge Audio Azur 751BD
Pioneer’s SC-57 AV Receiver
Pioneer Elite SC-57 and SC-55Receivers
Onkyo HT-S9400THX Home System
Onkyo BD-SP809 Blu-ray Player
Integra DTR series Home Theater Receivers
Pioneer Canada Elite Home Theatre Receivers

I don't take the absence of any mention of Oppo equipment in the list above as an indictment of Oppo's claims. Rather, it appears to me that the above is a non-exclusive list. IOW there are other unspecified pieces of equipment with the same video processing, presumably including the Oppo BD players.

8 out of 9 of the products listed above are mainstream AVRs.

It appears that not only are the above user claims about Oppo video quality superiority over AVRs, are not only unsupported but they are possibly contradicted.

Oppo themselves make the following comments:

http://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-a...po-blu-ray-q-a

"
Q: How come these new Blu-ray players lack analog video support?

A: There are two practical reasons for going all-digital for video:

1. The AACS “Analog Sunset” rule. It is well known in the industry that analog video output from component and composite video outputs for Blu-ray playback is already limited to 480i resolution on newly released models, and after 2013 analog video output will not be allowed. Since we expect the production of these two models to extend beyond 2013, we decided to be upfront by not offering analog video output instead of waiting to disable or remove the analog output after 2013.

2. The general industry direction of moving towards digital video. As shown in many newly released TV and AVR products, there are more HDMI inputs and less analog video inputs compared to older TV and AVR products.

Most importantly, in order to take full advantage of the excellent picture quality offered by these players, using the HDMI output is a must. The video processing features are only available over the HDMI output. HDMI is also required if a user wishes to watch any video in 3D or 4k resolution.
"

IOW analog video outputs are going the way of the dodo bird, so discussion of them is already moot for most AV system owners, and will shortly become moot for all AV system owners.

My statement: "For example it is a technical fact that spending $500-1,000 on an Oppo BD player makes no sense if you are going to attach it to the rest of your system with a piece of HDMI cable because HDMI bypasses the majority of the high quality circuitry in the Oppo."

continues to stand, unrebutted by any kind of reliable evidence.

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post #260 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post

It's not that I don't "want" to buy a newer AVR, but there are some other elements at play here: First, I don't really find a need to take advantage of the features so heavily loaded on today's receivers...I don't stream anything, I don't use networking, I don't use auto-setup programs and I don't use EQ.
One logical error here is the idea that today you have perfect knowledge of your future needs. Another logical error is the idea that there is a cost or performance penalty associated with AVR features that you don't currently use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
I'd like to add a power amp down the road just to have the comfort of knowing "gobs and gobs of raw power are there if needed"...know what I mean? Like a reserve, which I don't feel I have now -- sure, I never get the Onkyo to anywhere near maximum volume levels, but it would be nice to know I have a muscle amp behind the system for those times I want to get into theater-like levels...
The myth here is the idea that AVRs can't possibly achieve theater-like levels.

Beyond that, the justification for separates that is given appears to be completely irrational: I'd like to add a power amp down the road just to have the comfort of knowing "gobs and gobs of raw power are there if needed". I'm not going to waste my time arguing with people who want what they want whether it makes any sense to want it or not.
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post #261 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
Not in my experience.
Not in mine either. They are generally much worse. The only advantage to a small room is the need for less power and less speaker to fill the room, but the acoustics are generally worse, especially if it gets near a cube in shape.
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post #262 of 371 Old 07-19-2014, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I understand

But

I suggest you buy a higher end newer AVR.....I think will give you ample power and spend less than you would for separates
That being said...if you have to have separates
Then buy the least expensive AVR with preamp outputs and then buy a multichannel amp for it


Warren
Again, thank you for your continued assistance...


I shall consider a new higher-end receiver, indeed; I just don't know if I should wait until all this mish-mash about 4K and "Ultra HD" plays out to see where we stand with new formats, HDMI 2.0, etc...


As for your amp suggestion -- do you think I should get a model that powers just the front two channels (my RTi12s) or a three-channel for just the front stage...or go full blown with a five to seven channel amp? Seems silly to me to get a nice new receiver and not use its amp channels to power ANYTHING, if you see my logic...

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post #263 of 371 Old 07-20-2014, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW
4. There is no audible difference between Blu-ray players. I accept that comment as you wrote it. Modern DA converters do their job without any audible influence that I've ever encountered in a bias controlled listening test.

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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Thanks for the VERY USEFULL info, I'll cancel my OPPO order, and run down to walmart, they got a 49 dollar player on sale this week for $39. Looks like the dog will get feed this week!
I think the piece you're missing is that while I and others don't agree their are sound differences between amps and bluray players, that we see no value in an OPPO versus some $39 WalMart special.

There are features, like analog outputs, build quality, long-term reliability, resale value, firmware support, ease of use, quality of remote, support of RF remotes with the brand, aesthetics, speed of WiFi, integration of NetFlix and other smart features, ability to play SACD/DVD Audio/Hi-Def CD's, community support (like on AVS).

So you and I can completely disagree about the sound output from the HDMI connector on a BluRay player to the Pre-Amp, but we can both still end up buying an OPPO.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?

Last edited by DrDon; 07-20-2014 at 06:47 AM.
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post #264 of 371 Old 07-20-2014, 05:38 AM
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I see; no worries...perhaps I shouldn't have made the comment about "theater-like levels" because it seems like it has caused all panties to become immediately bunched up and around ankles...all I was trying to ascertain was what road I should go down with regard to doing an amp...two channel just for the fronts, three channel for the front stage or multi channel for all channels, though I think it would make more sense to use a new AVR's power for at least the surrounds...


Your thoughts?
I would go multichannel


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post #265 of 371 Old 07-20-2014, 06:52 AM
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More off-topic posts removed. Bickering removed. Attacks removed. Political discussions removed. A LOT of infractions have been issued. A number of posts have been edited to remove snide comments and insults.

From here on out, address the topic and not each other. Fun asides are allowed, but not if they go political. Bickering is not allowed. Insulting or attacking other members is not allowed. Open discussing of moderator actions is not allowed.

Posters not adhering to this will be banned from further participation in this thread.
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Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #266 of 371 Old 07-20-2014, 06:53 AM
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The myth here is the idea that AVRs can't possibly achieve theater-like levels.

.


how are you defining theater like levels....DB level?

and driving what speakers with what source material?


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Last edited by DrDon; 07-20-2014 at 06:58 AM.
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post #267 of 371 Old 07-20-2014, 06:53 AM
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More off-topic posts removed. Bickering removed. Attacks removed. Political discussions removed. A LOT of infractions have been issued. A number of posts have been edited to remove snide comments and insults.

From here on out, address the topic and not each other. Fun asides are allowed, but not if they go political. Bickering is not allowed. Insulting or attacking other members is not allowed. Open discussing of moderator actions is not allowed.

Posters not adhering to this will be banned from further participation in this thread.
might be the best idea to close this thread....


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post #268 of 371 Old 07-20-2014, 06:59 AM
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Unless it collapses completely, I'll leave that up to the thread starter.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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post #269 of 371 Old 07-20-2014, 07:01 AM
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IMO

when a poster starts one of these threads they should put a few disclaimers out there

Agree that much of this is subjective opinion

request that the posters offering recommendations cite what equipment they personally have experience with....down to specific model and depth/time of equipment ownership

I personally place a LOT more merit in the opinion of a person who actually owned the equipment they are commenting on





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post #270 of 371 Old 07-20-2014, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
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Now, I realize that in order to add an external amp to my system I would first need to change my AVR because the 605 doesn't have preamp outputs...but I'm wondering just how powerful an amp I would need to "open up" the RTi12s even more, or which way I should go (i.e. two channel, three channel, monoblocks)...and then what about the "line level converter" option, which would allow me to add an amp with this "adapter" that would connect to the speaker level outputs and convert them to preamp level so I can use my current AVR...is this a viable option?
Speakers do not "open up." They reproduce the voltages that are fed to them. There are only two things they fail at doing with respect to amplifiers. The first is getting loud enough. The second is avoiding distortion due to clipping. If your speakers play loud enough and do not clip then you have enough amplifier power. My own speakers are less sensitive than yours and they never dissipate more than 18 watts even on loud peaks. Amplifier power is one of the least important factors in all of audio. It is the audio press and internet forums that have confused you. Amplifier manufacturers make their amplifiers work with most real world situations in order to avoid going out of business.

If your current setup is working for you there is no need to change anything. If you just want to change something then, by all means, do that.
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