Is DTS HD Master Audio worth an upgrade? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Zenyatto View Post
Once more you anti lossless critics you can NOT sell me your agenda.
Anti lossless? Hardly. Rather, the point is that both lossless codecs have high bitrate lossy outputs that get used over S/PDIF connections.
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post #32 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post
Lossless audio is not a big improvement over lossy audio. I make this statement based on a some listening tests I read about.

.
to my ears it does...though clearly it varies with the AVR/prepro you are using

Different older AVR's handle optical inputs differently...as the OP pointed out

I recall having Pioneer Elite VSX47TX that decoded standard lossy DTS when fed a blu ray optical input....but the same signal( from the same player) fed to a yamaha 5890 I had at the time was DD 2.0 stereo
Both units were set to "straight" mode

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Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Rather than debating the differences between lossy & lossless are audible or not..
Why not go to a local AV specialist, and listen to both through quality loudspeakers, then decide...
HDMI is the home theater connector standard @ least for now..

Just my $0.03...
that is a a great idea

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post #33 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Interestingly enough, with regard to all this talk about "bitrates" and the way they run with lossy tracks that may be on Blu-ray...I have noticed that when there are trailers on a Blu-ray title before the main feature, and they're accompanied by Dolby Digital audio, they are WAY WAY louder, more aggressive and punchier than the actual feature film that's in (usually) DTS Master Audio; I mean, I find myself saying "Now THAT is how the actual FILM should sound...not just the TRAILERS..."


Good examples of this are with Sony's BD releases of White House Down and Olympus Has Fallen -- the trailers preceding these films are ridiculously loud, bassy and "in-your-face" in terms of audio delivery...once the actual films begin, their DTS Master Audio tracks get quieter and way less "aggressive" in nature, requiring one to crank the master volume way up to compensate...I never understood this, but I suppose there's something to be said about the lossy bitrate preparation on these discs and the mastering levels toyed with...
That is dynamic compression in action. By making the loud parts less "louder" you can increase the average volume. If you want you can almost completely eliminate any peak-to-average difference (see loudness war in music).

Iirc, film mixer has stated that the trailers need not conform to industry standards so they depart from reference level. Actually their effective reference level is lower, not louder . . .

While dynamic compression can make things seem more exciting, and I sure use it in recording music, IMO too much yields a very exciting sound that quickly becomes fatiguing. Trailers aren't that long so maybe no issue. Once you have dynamics comfortably within the reasonable range of a system in a room, though, I am convinced that the less compressed track will sound more exciting if you adjust so both have the same average level. Louds are louder, quiet passages quieter. Like sound in the real world. But without adjusting the volume control, the more compressed track can easily be 6 dB or morelouder on average which will entirely skew the comparison.
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post #34 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
Different older AVR's handle optical inputs differently...as the OP pointed out

I recall having Pioneer Elite VSX47TX that decoded standard lossy DTS when fed a blu ray optical input....but the same signal( from the same player) fed to a yamaha 5890 I had at the time was DD 2.0 stereo
Both units were set to "straight" mode
What you describe is not possible. If the player outputs DTS, a receiver cannot process it with a Dolby Digital decoder.
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post #35 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 12:08 PM
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agree

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Originally Posted by fatbottom View Post
I do think master audio sounds fantastic, the subwoofer channel alone in Tron Legacy has done things to the sub never heard from regular DVD mixes. Guess you just need a good system.

Also music sampler disc with the oppo sounds great, more like the 24 bit 96khz PCM FLAC's.


That's my take as well. . It all depends on your gear. The better quality the speaker, the more you WILL hear the difference between lossy DTS and DTS-MASTER.


If you can't hear any audible difference, your speakers are not up to the challenge.

Last edited by Deckard97; 07-20-2014 at 06:59 PM. Reason: UPDATED TO CLARIFY
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post #36 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
Anti lossless? Hardly. Rather, the point is that both lossless codecs have high bitrate lossy outputs that get used over S/PDIF connections.
The thread starter asked:
"Is DTS HD Master Audio worth an upgrade?"
Where is your answer?
Thank you
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post #37 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
That's my take as well, and It's not really an opinion, it's reality. It all depends on your gear. The better quality the speaker, the more you WILL hear the difference between lossy DTS and DTS-MASTER.


If you can't hear any audible difference, your speakers are not up to the challenge.
A competitive AVR is the KEY. What good a decent speaker set is if you do NOT have the "engine" power and the quality to drive them? I am just saying...

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post #38 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenyatto View Post
The thread starter asked:
"Is DTS HD Master Audio worth an upgrade?"
Where is your answer?
Thank you
Earlier in the thread. Post 5. No, lossless alone is not worth the upgrade because it offers little or no improvement over the high bitrate lossy codecs associated with the lossless versions.

Last edited by BIslander; 07-20-2014 at 01:00 PM.
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post #39 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenyatto View Post
You anti lossless critics are entitled to your opinion. I am NOT an expert. I have climbed the ladder from a humble "jalape" AVR to a very competitive High-End Onkyo TX-SR875. Prior to the Onkyo TX-SR875 I had for at least six years the Denon AVR5700 which was no slouch, either.
BTW my BD player is the Oppo BDP-83 which was the King of blu ray players for a good while. I have played the Top Gun DTS ES 6.1 SD DVD version VS the blu ray version that has both lossless formats DTS HD Master 5.1 and DD TRUE HD 5.1. I find the DTS HD Master 5.1 richer, fuller and enveloping the Home Theater room more. The sound spreads wider. That to me is sound superiority from the lossless format. The Dark Knight is another title that makes my point. That's only a start. I can go from one title to another to the next, etc.
Once more you anti lossless critics you can NOT sell me your agenda.
If you have a very modest surround sound system (not hi-res speakers - sound bar, ...), not so much. IMHO
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post #40 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
That's my take as well, and It's not really an opinion, it's reality. It all depends on your gear. The better quality the speaker, the more you WILL hear the difference between lossy DTS and DTS-MASTER.


If you can't hear any audible difference, your speakers are not up to the challenge.
Despite the claim of "it's reality", this post is nothing more than personal opinion.
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post #41 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
If you have a very modest surround sound system (not hi-res speakers - sound bar, ...), not so much. IMHO
Sir, duly NOTED

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post #42 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
Earlier in the thread. Post 5. No, lossless alone is not worth the upgrade because it offers little or no improvement over the high bitrate lossy codecs associated with the lossless versions.
I always fill-up my '94 Corvette with premium gas. You can drive whatever with cheap gas. BTW your opinion is a minority one. If the lossless format is not worth the expense then WHY so MANY blu ray titles have been released with it? WHY so many AVR's have been successfully manufactured and marketed? Those questions are NOT as naive as they may sound, no pun intended. It's even more ironical that anybody can easily get a lossless capable AVR two hundred dollars or less. That alone justifies the upgrade even for the tight budget folks.
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post #43 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 01:39 PM
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You continue to miss the point, which has been explained several times. The OP does not need to upgrade his processor because he is already getting the benefit of lossless codecs.
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post #44 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenyatto View Post
I always fill-up my '94 Corvette with premium gas. You can drive whatever with cheap gas. BTW your opinion is a minority one. If the lossless format is not worth the expense then WHY so MANY blu ray titles have been released with it? WHY so many AVR's have been successfully manufactured and marketed? Those questions are NOT as naive as they may sound, no pun intended. It's even more ironical that anybody can easily get a lossless capable AVR two hundred dollars or less. That alone justifies the upgrade even for the tight budget folks.
I am on record that I want lossless when I can get it. That doesn't mean I cannot comprehend that lossless might yield no audible benefit. The short answer to "why" do they issue lossless is "marketing." Clearly it works. Otoh afaik multichannel pcm, like Disney did for a while, has fallen out of favor. Again doubtless because of marketing sales data. Surely not technical superiority or nobody would have owned vhs tapes. Because beta was better, by all accounts
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post #45 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
The OP does not need to upgrade his processor because he is already getting the benefit of lossless codecs.
Actually no; he's taking advantage of the Lossy surround sound audio soundtracks (DD & dts).
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post #46 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:00 PM
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I feel like some of you aren't paying attention. When playing a lossless track, the player will output a lossy version encoded at the maximum bitrates supported by the DTS and DD 5.1 codecs. Those rates are considerably higher than the ones used on DVD and they sound great, rivaling lossless in quality. So, there's no need to upgrade solely to get lossless decoding because the high bitrate lossy codecs sound just as good.
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post #47 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
What you describe is not possible. If the player outputs DTS, a receiver cannot process it with a Dolby Digital decoder.
no actually it was

picture this

the player and movie are set to output DTS-MA...bitstream
Both receivers are connected with optical output

The Pioneer Elite VSX47TX showed DTS on the screen

The Yamaha 5890 showed Digital 2.0

clearly..I knew that neither could process DTS-MA...as neither even had HDMI inputs

But at the time I didnt have an HDMI receiver..until I bought the Onkyo 875

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post #48 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
I feel like some of you aren't paying attention. When playing a lossless track, the player will output a lossy version encoded at the maximum bitrates supported by the DTS and DD 5.1 codecs. Those rates are considerably higher than the ones used on DVD and they sound great, rivaling lossless in quality. So, there's no need to upgrade solely to get lossless decoding because the high bitrate lossy codecs sound just as good.
as I recall some will only output DD or DTS 2.0 via optical

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post #49 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Zenyatto View Post
If the lossless format is not worth the expense then WHY so MANY blu ray titles have been released with it?

Marketing?


WHY so many AVR's have been successfully manufactured and marketed?[/quote]


Demand creation?


Quote:
Those questions are NOT as naive as they may sound, no pun intended. It's even more ironical that anybody can easily get a lossless capable AVR two hundred dollars or less. That alone justifies the upgrade even for the tight budget folks.

That is not logical. The OP wondered if it made sense to others to upgrade an AVR for no other reason than to have lossless decoding schemes. He didn't ask how much it would cost. For me the lossless codecs aren't very important so I continue to use an old AVR without them. If it is important to the OP, then he can something other than what I have done.
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post #50 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
Despite the claim of "it's reality", this post is nothing more than personal opinion.


That's fine, an opinion then. Can I ask what speakers and AVR you are using? And can you post a pic of your system? I'm curious as to the reason why you cannot hear a difference between DTS and DTS-MA


The main attraction with Blu-rays is not just the video....there are many audiophiles, myself included, who are loving the new lossless codecs.
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post #51 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
as I recall some will only output DD or DTS 2.0 via optical
There would have to be a DD or DTS 2.0 track on the disc for that to happen. Otherwise, as BIslander said, it would not be possible.

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post #52 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
I feel like some of you aren't paying attention. When playing a lossless track, the player will output a lossy version encoded at the maximum bitrates supported by the DTS and DD 5.1 codecs. Those rates are considerably higher than the ones used on DVD and they sound great, rivaling lossless in quality. So, there's no need to upgrade solely to get lossless decoding because the high bitrate lossy codecs sound just as good.
Still lossy (compressed audio) though. ..."Rivaling - as good"; for some perhaps but not for all.

* And I'm paying attention.
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post #53 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
no actually it was

picture this

the player and movie are set to output DTS-MA...bitstream
Both receivers are connected with optical output

The Pioneer Elite VSX47TX showed DTS on the screen

The Yamaha 5890 showed Digital 2.0

clearly..I knew that neither could process DTS-MA...as neither even had HDMI inputs

But at the time I didnt have an HDMI receiver..until I bought the Onkyo 875

Warren
Regardless, it is impossible for a receiver to process a DTS input using anything other than a DTS decoder. So, the question is how you might get the results you saw.

As players only have one optical output, it's likely you didn't have both receivers connected at the same time. It is also likely that you had the player attached to a display using HDMI for video. The HDMI handshake with a TV can override the player's audio output setting. If the set can't handle the format set in the player, it will instruct the player to send something else instead. So, perhaps the TV connected when you had the Yamaha receiver told your player to decode the DTS track itself and downmix it to stereo. That's what usually happens when a player is configured to send DTS to a television because most sets can't process DTS tracks.

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post #54 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
That's fine, an opinion then. Can I ask what speakers and AVR you are using? And can you post a pic of your system? I'm curious as to the reason why you cannot hear a difference between DTS and DTS-MA


The main attraction with Blu-rays is not just the video....there are many audiophiles, myself included, who are loving the new lossless codecs.
This is not about what I hear. We are all subject to biases and I lack a bias-free test environment. So, while I personally do not hear differences in most cases, my posts are based on more rigorous testing done by others and by the fact that many audio experts are of the opinion that high bitrate lossy encodes can be transparent to the original.

Meanwhile, I use Def Tech Mythos 3s and 4s. My receiver is a Denon 3805, a pre HDMI model. I play Blu-rays on a Panasonic BD55, using multichannel analog.

Once again, I love high res audio as much as anyone else. I listen to SACD and DVD-Audio along with Blu-ray. Nonetheless, when someone asks whether they should get a new receiver just so that they can decode lossless codecs on Blu-ray, I will answer "No", because there will be little or no sonic improvement over high bitrate lossy outputs of lossless codecs on BD.
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post #55 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
This is not about what I hear. We are all subject to biases and I lack a bias-free test environment. So, while I personally do not hear differences in most cases, my posts are based on more rigorous testing done by others and by the fact that many audio experts are of the opinion that high bitrate lossy encodes can be transparent to the original.

Meanwhile, I use Def Tech Mythos 3s and 4s. My receiver is a Denon 3805, a pre HDMI model. I play Blu-rays on a Panasonic BD55, using multichannel analog.

Once again, I love high res audio as much as anyone else. I listen to SACD and DVD-Audio along with Blu-ray. Nonetheless, when someone asks whether they should get a new receiver just so that they can decode lossless codecs on Blu-ray, I will answer "No", because there will be little or no sonic improvement over high bitrate lossy outputs of lossless codecs on BD.



That's cool, my question to you has been answered. Enjoy
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post #56 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 03:30 PM
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I used to have the Denon AVR-3805 and Panasonic DMP-BD55. ...Great units, and that BD55 was great in its 7.1-ch. down-mixing; for the two rear surrounds.

BIslander, what player do you use for SACDs? ...And DVD-Audios?

Last edited by NorthSky; 07-20-2014 at 03:35 PM.
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post #57 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 03:45 PM
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A Denon 2900. Multichannel analog out.
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post #58 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Still lossy (compressed audio) though. ..."Rivaling - as good"; for some perhaps but not for all.

* And I'm paying attention.
I am with you as well on that one.

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post #59 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 03:52 PM
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NorthSky:
I listen to SACD's and DVD-Audio via the Oppo BDP-83 and the Onkyo TX-SR875. BTW both support DSD.

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post #60 of 121 Old 07-20-2014, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
That's fine, an opinion then. Can I ask what speakers and AVR you are using? And can you post a pic of your system? I'm curious as to the reason why you cannot hear a difference between DTS and DTS-MA


The main attraction with Blu-rays is not just the video....there are many audiophiles, myself included, who are loving the new lossless codecs.
What one hears is what one hears. I think I SHOULD
be able to hear the measurable difference in frequency response if I sit say 5 degrees below the tweeter versus on axis. I just don't.

The reason one might not hear a difference between high bitrate lossy and lossless is that the perceptual coding can be a lot less intrusive so that there is less chance of throwing out anything that would be audible in the process versus say eliminating a spurious rumble 80 dB below the meaningful content which, for humans, is way beyond likely and well into certain to be masked by the meaningful content. Assuming of course the listener is not actually (versus self-identified-as) superhuman.
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