Is DTS HD Master Audio worth an upgrade? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
That's fine, an opinion then. Can I ask what speakers and AVR you are using? And can you post a pic of your system? I'm curious as to the reason why you cannot hear a difference between DTS and DTS-MA


The main attraction with Blu-rays is not just the video....there are many audiophiles, myself included, who are loving the new lossless codecs.
What one hears is what one hears. I think I SHOULD
be able to hear the measurable difference in frequency response if I sit say 5 degrees below the tweeter versus on axis. I just don't.

The reason one might not hear a difference between high bitrate lossy and lossless is that the perceptual coding can be a lot less intrusive so that there is less chance of throwing out anything that would be audible in the process versus say eliminating a spurious rumble 80 dB below the meaningful content which, for humans, is way beyond likely and well into certain to be masked by the meaningful content. Assuming of course the listener is not actually (versus self-identified-as) superhuman.
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post #62 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Zenyatto View Post
The Dark Knight is another title that makes my point. That's only a start. I can go from one title to another to the next, etc.

And I can do the exact same with regard to the titles I feel DON'T sound any better -- and when it comes to The Dark Knight and its TrueHD track (on the Blu-ray), this is something I commented about earlier in the thread and something I have directly studied: Comparing the DEFAULT lossy Dolby Digital mix that the disc begins with (you have to switch to the TrueHD track on the fly to get the lossless audio; a strange Warner Bros. glitch that a few of their Blu-rays had) to the lossless TrueHD mix, I didn't discern much, if any, difference between them...and I A/B'ed back and forth with matching levels. The track, in general and in both Dolby formats, is as wild, exciting, aggressive and involving as I've heard -- but this is for BOTH tracks that I feel this way...


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Once more you anti lossless critics you can NOT sell me your agenda.

And you can't sell US on the fact that there are drastic differences between these codecs.

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post #63 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

That is dynamic compression in action. By making the loud parts less "louder" you can increase the average volume. If you want you can almost completely eliminate any peak-to-average difference (see loudness war in music).

Iirc, film mixer has stated that the trailers need not conform to industry standards so they depart from reference level. Actually their effective reference level is lower, not louder . . .

While dynamic compression can make things seem more exciting, and I sure use it in recording music, IMO too much yields a very exciting sound that quickly becomes fatiguing. Trailers aren't that long so maybe no issue. Once you have dynamics comfortably within the reasonable range of a system in a room, though, I am convinced that the less compressed track will sound more exciting if you adjust so both have the same average level. Louds are louder, quiet passages quieter. Like sound in the real world. But without adjusting the volume control, the more compressed track can easily be 6 dB or morelouder on average which will entirely skew the comparison.

Interesting; and while I have always heard about "dynamic compression" being the catalyst for this "much louder in output" phenomenon, I have never really bought into it; what I do know is that once a main feature starts (usually in Master Audio) the overall dynamic crunch and punch is ridiculously lower and less involving as compared to the trailers that came before it encoded in Dolby Digital...it's somewhat disappointing to experience once the feature film begins.


Just my two cents (as I realize one can merely turn the volume way up to compensate for the "lower" perceived volume output of the main track)...

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post #64 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
That's my take as well, and It's not really an opinion, it's reality. It all depends on your gear. The better quality the speaker, the more you WILL hear the difference between lossy DTS and DTS-MASTER.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.. ....


Sorry -- had to laugh at that one; it was indeed hysterics-inducing...it's NOT an opinion but REALITY? According to who...YOU?


I have respectable gear and DON'T hear the difference between the lossy DTS core of a Blu-ray (when I played these on my previous Panasonic deck) and the DTS-HD Master Audio lossless streams...what exactly are you hearing with regard to differences? You're telling me it's a night and day difference between the CORE DTS track and the LOSSLESS Master Audio signal?


What exactly are you comparing -- are we talking about extracted core vs. lossless stream of a DTS/DTS Master Audio mix...or lossy soundtracks IN GENERAL versus lossless mixes?

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If you can't hear any audible difference, your speakers are not up to the challenge.

There is NO WAY that is possible with the speakers I have -- they are indeed up to the challenge. You're telling me I would have to spend UPWARDS of $5K at least to hear these differences? My speakers consist of models that were flagships in their respective series from the manufacturer -- you're telling me I had to go super audiophile to experience the differences lossless can make?

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post #65 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.. ....


Sorry -- had to laugh at that one; it was indeed hysterics-inducing...it's NOT an opinion but REALITY? According to who...YOU?


I have respectable gear and DON'T hear the difference between the lossy DTS core of a Blu-ray (when I played these on my previous Panasonic deck) and the DTS-HD Master Audio lossless streams...what exactly are you hearing with regard to differences? You're telling me it's a night and day difference between the CORE DTS track and the LOSSLESS Master Audio signal?


What exactly are you comparing -- are we talking about extracted core vs. lossless stream of a DTS/DTS Master Audio mix...or lossy soundtracks IN GENERAL versus lossless mixes?




There is NO WAY that is possible with the speakers I have -- they are indeed up to the challenge. You're telling me I would have to spend UPWARDS of $5K at least to hear these differences? My speakers consist of models that were flagships in their respective series from the manufacturer -- you're telling me I had to go super audiophile to experience the differences lossless can make?


Thanks for your opinion , of my opinion.




What model speakers do you have, what AVR? and I'll give you my opinion. Sorry to get you so flustered, I apologize.
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post #66 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
Thanks for your opinion , of my opinion.

YOU just stated that "IT'S NOT OPINION...IT'S REALITY..."


Which is it?

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post #67 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
What model speakers do you have, what AVR? and I'll give you my opinion. Sorry to get you so flustered, I apologize.

So you can simply say "oh, well, of course you're NEVER going to be able to experience the benefits of lossless entertainment with THAT kind of setup...jeeeez..." ?


No thank you; rest assured, however, I'm not utilizing any Bose gear, flea market-attainable in-a-box system or any such bargain basement commodities.

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post #68 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.. ....


Sorry -- had to laugh at that one; it was indeed hysterics-inducing...it's NOT an opinion but REALITY? According to who...YOU? Yeah me


I have respectable gear and DON'T hear the difference between the lossy DTS core of a Blu-ray (when I played these on my previous Panasonic deck) and the DTS-HD Master Audio lossless streams...what exactly are you hearing with regard to differences? You're telling me it's a night and day difference between the CORE DTS track and the LOSSLESS Master Audio signal? That depends, are you an audiophile and have a passion for sound?


What exactly are you comparing -- are we talking about extracted core vs. lossless stream of a DTS/DTS Master Audio mix...or lossy soundtracks IN GENERAL versus lossless mixes? I was referring to lossy DVD DTS Vs DTS-MA




There is NO WAY that is possible with the speakers I have -- they are indeed up to the challenge. You're telling me I would have to spend UPWARDS of $5K at least to hear these differences? My speakers consist of models that were flagships in their respective series from the manufacturer -- you're telling me I had to go super audiophile to experience the differences lossless can make?

Whats your idea of " super audiophile " ? What Flagship speakers do you own?
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post #69 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
YOU just stated that "IT'S NOT OPINION...IT'S REALITY..."


Which is it?


Read the thread first, my post # 51 cleared that up. No need to scream at me. R-E-L-A-X
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post #70 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:00 PM
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This is beyond ridiculous...first, you respond by saying "THANKS FOR YOUR OPINION...OF MY OPINION..."


Then I say "YOU JUST STATED IT'S NOT OPINION, IT'S FACT..."


Then you respond to my question asking "ACCORDING TO WHO...YOU?" with a "YEAH, ME..."


What in God's name are you TALKING about? You thank me for giving you an opinion about YOUR OPINION which you at first said wasn't opinion but FACT and now you're standing by it saying "YEAH...I AM THE ONE WHO THINKS IT'S NOT OPINION BUT FACT"?

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post #71 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:01 PM
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Relax dude

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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
So you can simply say "oh, well, of course you're NEVER going to be able to experience the benefits of lossless entertainment with THAT kind of setup...jeeeez..." ?


No thank you; rest assured, however, I'm not utilizing any Bose gear, flea market-attainable in-a-box system or any such bargain basement commodities.




Calm down or I'll report you....
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post #72 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Deckard97 View Post
Calm down or I'll report you....

You're making these asinine comments to spark this stupid debate and you'll report ME?


What is you deal, man?

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post #73 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:05 PM
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I am truly not understanding how you went from that comment of "this is complete fact and not opinion" to "fine...it's an opinion then..."


Can you at least explain that?

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post #74 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by intellivolume View Post
you're making these asinine comments to spark this stupid debate and you'll report me?


What is you deal, man?

relax bro, get help
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post #75 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:11 PM
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Move along guys...

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post #76 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Interesting; and while I have always heard about "dynamic compression" being the catalyst for this "much louder in output" phenomenon, I have never really bought into it; what I do know is that once a main feature starts (usually in Master Audio) the overall dynamic crunch and punch is ridiculously lower and less involving as compared to the trailers that came before it encoded in Dolby Digital...it's somewhat disappointing to experience once the feature film begins.


Just my two cents (as I realize one can merely turn the volume way up to compensate for the "lower" perceived volume output of the main track)...
Lack of understanding what you are talking about isn't a positive. Dynsmic rangr is, by definition afaik, the difference between loud and soft. In practice dynsmic range is experienced as the difference between average and loudest. With s loud movie, so with dialog averaging 85 dB, it is possible to have a 20dB peak at 105 dB on a reference system. If I compress that so the peaks are only 10 dB louder than the average, and leave the dialog at 85 dB, peaks will max at 95 dB. But I can now turn everything up so pesmaks are at 105 again and the average becomes 95 dB. I have lost 10 dB of dynamic range but most everything is twice as loud -plus 10 dB - so it sounds way louder while it is less dynamic. So when you talk about dynamics you are perfectly inverted from reality. You should enjoy loudness war music, which is largely impossible for me to listen to for any length of time.

But louder average is absolutely not more dynamic. And turning up is better than squashing the sh!t out of the material, imo. But reportedly people who are used to the distortion of low bitrate mp3s miss the grunge when its gone, althouh that's not how they would describe it, so being addicted to dynamic range free sound could be the same.
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post #77 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:15 PM
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Deckard97 - in one of your recent replies to intelliVolume, you clarified that you are comparing audio from DVDs with lossless audio on Blu-ray. That's not the issue being discussed.

The OP is also listening to lossless tracks on Blu-ray, not DVDs, and he wants to know whether upgrading to a processor that can decode lossless tracks will improve sound quality. The lossy outputs from Blu-ray are higher quality than DVD. That's the relevant comparison here. Have you done that type of testing?
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post #78 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
Deckard97 - in one of your recent replies to intelliVolume, you clarified that you are comparing audio from DVDs with lossless audio on Blu-ray. That's not the issue being discussed.

The OP is also listening to lossless tracks on Blu-ray, not DVDs, and he wants to know whether upgrading to a processor that can decode lossless tracks will improve sound quality. The lossy outputs from Blu-ray are higher quality than DVD. That's the relevant comparison here. Have you done that type of testing?
Facts:
1. Member sooke the thread starter simply asked after realizing that his NON HDMI Yamaha AVR can NOT pass lossless audio through an optical connection.
2. Member sooke asked if upgrading to a capable AVR is worth it.
3. Member sooke never asked if a capable AVR would improve the sound quality.
You insist on perpetuating a vicious circle. The lossy VS lossless has been literally abused and it's getting out of hand. After the countless posts member sooke should have an idea about the subject. Let's move-on shall we?
Thank you

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post #79 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 08:03 PM
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What possible reason would sooke have for asking the question except for improved sound quality? Here's what he asked:
Quote:
My question is whether there is enough benefit to DTS HD master audio to justify an upgrade? Could your average person (non-audiophile) tell a difference?
Seems like an interest in quality to me.
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post #80 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 08:28 PM
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I wish I could post a link to a what I thought was a carefully done listening test.

Does anyone remember this test, around the time lossless was being talked about a lot? It was very interesting, and demonstrated that the differences could be subtle. Based on that alone, I feel confident in stating that the differences are not too important. Most people don't have a treated room, have good but not the best speakers and such. The listening test was doing using very expensive supposedly very accurate speakers in a treated room with controlled listening conditions.

As the price to hear lossless costs very little now, it's worth arguing over. I just wanted to explain where I came to the conclusion that it's not too important.

I remember having a friend switch between two different MP3 rates for the same song. I was using headphones. I could just barely make out some distortion in cymbals, and was able to identify which was at a higher rate. I think it was like 128 vs 160 kbs MP3, but not 100% sure. I suspect it's a bit like that. Some distortion on HFs that you would be hard pressed to hear in movies. For music I would prefer uncompressed, but AAC 128 is excellent, so I don't worry to much about such things anymore.
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post #81 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 08:43 PM
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You are probably referring to an article in Home Entertainment Magazine written six or seven years ago. It wasn't a study. The two authors went to Dolby and DTS to compare their data compression codecs with uncompressed PCM. In listening rooms with high quality equipment and blind switching, they couldn't tell much of a difference.

While the test environment was considerably better than any of us can do at home, it was far from a rigorous study. Just a couple of guys doing listening tests.

I'd link to it, but the old links I've found are all broken.
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post #82 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 08:50 PM
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This thread is getting boring and nauseating. It needs a heavy dose of Zantac. ALL good things always come to an end.

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post #83 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 08:53 PM
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Feel free to leave at any time. The moderators took care of the bickering already. Beyond that, I have no idea why you've made your last two posts.
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post #84 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
A Denon 2900. Multichannel analog out.
But the Denon 3805 has only one set of multichannel analog input (Ext In).

Do you have another separate multichannel rig, or a separate multichannel splitter to switch between your two sources?

____________

P.S. The OP has been more than well served; he is now getting the 5.1 downmix from Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA through his digital optical connection between his Yamaha receiver and Sony BD player.
It is not the full Lossless audio codec, but still a very good lossy one nonetheless, and he's very happy now, much more than when he started this thread and not able to benefit of anything truly satisfyingly sounding.
All it took is to change a setting in the audio menu of his BD player; done!

At this point we only go beyond our duty in assisting the OP. ...I feel that he's enjoying watching his BD movies now more than contemplating spending money for a new receiver; HDMI and Dolby Atmos or not.

So, BIstander, you don't have to really answer my question just above (I'm still curious though ).
And there are other threads of great interest...where the OP can learn all about HDMI and Dolby Atmos.

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post #85 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 08:56 PM
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I'm fairly certain a proper double blind ABX test won't reveal anything of major significance even when it's done with high end equipment and trained ears. Even with listener provided content.

It's just like those tests where they inserted a 16 bit 44.1kHz ADC+DAC in an audio chain (the DAC just played what the ADC sampled and did basically nothing), and no one could reliably identify when it was in or out.
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post #86 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 08:59 PM
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But the Denon 3805 has only one set of multichannel analog input (Ext In).

Do you have another separate multichannel rig, or a separate multichannel splitter to switch between your two sources?
18 cables and a mechanical switch. Real high tech.
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post #87 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 09:07 PM
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Does anyone remember this test, around the time lossless was being talked about a lot?
Sure, it was originally published in Home Entertainment magazine on-line. I forgot the name of the author, but he and his editor (Geoffrey Morrison) went to Dolby Labs and DTS headquarters to test their respective lossless codecs against uncompressed PCM. No surprise that they didn't hear a difference. However, they were surprised how close the legacy lossy codecs were to the PCM original. Here's the relevant part:

Quote:
Then, we compared the higher bitrate (640 kbps) that is found on the Dolby Digital tracks on Blu-rays to the original. “Golden Ears” Morrison was able to hear the difference, but I, and most others in the room with us, did not. Each of us had our turn in the prime listening chair, and couldn’t know the origin of the clips or their order of presentation.

The shocker came when we compared the lower 448 kbps Dolby Digital DVD bitrate to the original. There was an audible difference, but it was only ever-so-slightly noticeable (and this is with a high end audio system in an acoustically controlled environment that is so far beyond what typical home theater systems are capable of resolving). There was just the slightest decrease in presence with the DD version, not exactly a softening of the sound, but just a tad less ambience and a similarly small tightening of the front soundstage’s depth. Quite a remarkable result, I thought, and I was highly impressed with how much fidelity can be packed into such a relatively small amount of bitspace. If I was doing actual scoring, I would have awarded a 4.8 grade to the results I heard – the audible difference was that subtle.

We then conducted A/B comparisons between the high resolution Blue Man Group PCM original soundtrack and the core DTS codec which has a Blu-ray and DVD bitrate of either 768 kbps or 1.5 Mb/s, in a somewhat similar but not totally blind fashion that we went through the week before.

It was déjà vu all over again. We switched back and forth between the original PCM master and the core DTS version, and here we found only the slightest, barely noticeable difference. From a frequency response standpoint, both versions were identical, with clearly delineated high frequency details, but the compressed version differed slightly only in barely noticeable presence —that sense of being “there”, with the original PCM track having just slightly greater overall richness. Whatever acoustic elements were removed in the code/decode process were clearly superfluous, at least for the most part, as the audible differences were so minor as to be almost unnoticeable—again, another testament to the capabilities of this highly refined codec.

Home Entertainment magazine is gone, but the article is still around:

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...ressed_pcm/C16

Sanjay

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post #88 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
You are probably referring to an article in Home Entertainment Magazine written six or seven years ago. It wasn't a study. The two authors went to Dolby and DTS to compare their data compression codecs with uncompressed PCM. In listening rooms with high quality equipment and blind switching, they couldn't tell much of a difference.

While the test environment was considerably better than any of us can do at home, it was far from a rigorous study. Just a couple of guys doing listening tests.

I'd link to it, but the old links I've found are all broken.
The intellectual property of Home Entertainment was transferred to Electronic House.

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...ressed_pcm/C16

If you ever need to locate the article for citation, just run a Google query on "electronic house dolby morrison." The first result will be the correct link.

And, for the record, even just these handful of tests with industry professionals in controlled environments using world class equipment trump the preconceived, non scientifically grounded notions of Average Joes here at AVS.

AJ
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post #89 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 09:36 PM
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Thanks, Sanjay. That was the article

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #90 of 124 Old 07-20-2014, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post
You are probably referring to an article in Home Entertainment Magazine written six or seven years ago. It wasn't a study. The two authors went to Dolby and DTS to compare their data compression codecs with uncompressed PCM. In listening rooms with high quality equipment and blind switching, they couldn't tell much of a difference.

While the test environment was considerably better than any of us can do at home, it was far from a rigorous study. Just a couple of guys doing listening tests.

I'd link to it, but the old links I've found are all broken.
Sanjay posted the link. I was not trying to imply it was a study, sorry if it came across that way. With audio, studies would mean nothing, as people would come up with reasons they were wrong. I think the article only showed the there's good reason to presume the difference is slight, which matches my experiences in comparing lossy to lossless ( which is also nowhere close to a a study

"But this one goes up to 11"
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