Are we being forced to buy separates ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 07-20-2014, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Are we being forced to buy separates ?

The freedom to recycle good amps in avrs is just about gone. RCA 7.1+ inputs are on there way out. I always check out the rear panel on the newest hardware, it makes me think the guy who writes the books for dummies, the yellow ones you read when you have no idea what something is about books has a hand in this.
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post #2 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
The freedom to recycle good amps in avrs is just about gone.
Right. I have a store room full of classic old amps. Thing is few are actually that much more powerful than those in a good AVR. I had a Threshold SA4e and it only put out 125 wpc into 8 ohms.

It takes a 1 KW amp to get "twice as loud" as a typical AVR amp, and I never had a lot of those...

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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
RCA 7.1+ inputs are on there(sic) way out.
7.1 outputs are going the same way, apparently for reasons of safeguarding intellectual property. No outputs, no need for inputs.

Also it is a good general rule to keep the digital audio signal in digital format as close to the speakers as you can. Virtually all the sources we use are digital, and the common analog sources (turntable for example) only have L+R.

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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
I always check out the rear panel on the newest hardware, it makes me think the guy who writes the books for dummies, the yellow ones you read when you have no idea what something is about books has a hand in this.
If there is no practical use for it, why bemoan not having to pay for it?
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post #3 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 04:07 AM
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Yamaha 1040 has full set of pre-outs and 7.1 inputs

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/aud..._g/?mode=model

You just need to move higher up the AVR chain. As for AV pre well some do have 7.1 input but generally AV pre's are expensive. Marantz 7701 isn't too bad

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...71198958,d.ZWU

http://www.avland.co.uk/aasp/marantz...01/rearlrg.jpg

If the 7701 had subwoofer EQ I'd probably get it.

Considering moving to XLR in the future

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post #4 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I understand the reasons why common analog inputs and outputs are slowly but surely disappearing with midend avrs, alreadly gone on lowend. How long before there all gone from all avrs? What if I want to pull out the old vcr, sure go direct to the TV using RF. At this point yes there is still a way, but again, how long will that last. At some point there won't be anyway to connect avrs with outdated front ends with great amps built in, to a newer state of the art preamp. Seems like the 7.1+ avr inputs will be history which at this time would the only way to upgrade the front end of a avr,, that would be useful cost effective and very green. Preamp outs are only useful for more power/channels with avrs that can handle current formats. Seems like new avrs are being designed to only work in one direction. So recycling powerful avr amps may be a thing we can tell the kids and what we could do at one time, land fills of avrs not very green.. So upgrading takes on a new meaning ? Throwing out good but out dated avrs, to only be replaced by new ones. The cost will most likely be much higher to keep and maintain the same level of performance, just to gain a new format or/and connection. My point being, since it is already happening with every new model year, your next upgrade may just have to be separates to be cost effective in the long run.

Last edited by joehonest; 07-21-2014 at 07:50 AM.
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post #5 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 08:05 AM
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I doubt analogue stereo inputs will be phased out anytime soon. Composite is still here, and that needs to be killed off.

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post #6 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 10:43 AM
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Ebay has plenty of cheap older 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 channel receivers with direct analog inputs that can be used as power amps, and I imagine that will be the case for many years, if not decades.

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post #7 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Ebay has plenty of cheap older 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 channel receivers with direct analog inputs that can be used as power amps, and I imagine that will be the case for many years, if not decades.
Well, let us be clear. Those are analog multichannel inputs intended for fixed level signals, not direct amp inputs intended for variable level signals. Very few AVRs -- except a few uber flagship designs from the late 1990s and early 2000s -- have had jumpers or direct amp inputs.

So, using the analog multichannel inputs of an older AVR just for its amps has always struck me as a cheap kludge. That daisy chains the preamps and volume controls of both AVRs, maybe even the DSPs of both AVRs, making it an inelegant solution at best.

In the end, I would say do not complain about the retirement of analog multichannel inputs. HDMI audio has rendered them largely vestigial. Instead, pony up the dough, buy a multichannel amp, and be done with amplification concerns for a decade or two. You then have the freedom to use any AVR or pre/pro you please.

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post #8 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
I understand the reasons why common analog inputs and outputs are slowly but surely disappearing with midend avrs, alreadly gone on lowend. How long before there all gone from all avrs? What if I want to pull out the old vcr, sure go direct to the TV using RF. At this point yes there is still a way, but again, how long will that last. At some point there won't be anyway to connect avrs with outdated front ends with great amps built in, to a newer state of the art preamp. Seems like the 7.1+ avr inputs will be history which at this time would the only way to upgrade the front end of a avr,, that would be useful cost effective and very green. Preamp outs are only useful for more power/channels with avrs that can handle current formats. Seems like new avrs are being designed to only work in one direction. So recycling powerful avr amps may be a thing we can tell the kids and what we could do at one time, land fills of avrs not very green.. So upgrading takes on a new meaning ? Throwing out good but out dated avrs, to only be replaced by new ones. The cost will most likely be much higher to keep and maintain the same level of performance, just to gain a new format or/and connection. My point being, since it is already happening with every new model year, your next upgrade may just have to be separates to be cost effective in the long run.
You think audio is going backwards. I can't even find a new rotary dial phone.
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post #9 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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S/N could be a issue, I've done this in the past between upgrades with very good results. Many 7.1 inputs by-pass all but the volume control.
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post #10 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
You think audio is going backwards. I can't even find a new rotary dial phone.
I know that you mean, at some point tech reaches a level that is good enough to not want/need better, I'm happy with what I got level, it works for me..
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post #11 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post
So, using the analog multichannel inputs of an older AVR just for its amps has always struck me as a cheap kludge. That daisy chains the preamps and volume controls of both AVRs, maybe even the DSPs of both AVRs, making it an inelegant solution at best.
I believe the multichannel inputs go directly to the volume control.

That may still involve undesired extra circuitry, which can be avoided by buying a used multichannel amp.

But why the objection when you were the one lamenting the death of the multichannel inputs?

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post #12 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
But why the objection when you were the one lamenting the death of the multichannel inputs?
Huh? Are you referring to my post or those of the thread starter?

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post #13 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
I understand the reasons why common analog inputs and outputs are slowly but surely disappearing with midend avrs, alreadly gone on lowend. How long before there all gone from all avrs?
It looks like a few years.


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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
What if I want to pull out the old vcr, sure go direct to the TV using RF. At this point yes there is still a way, but again, how long will that last.
I've never seen a VCR with multichannel outputs, Every one I've ever seen has just stereo outputs and AFAIK analog stereo inputs are not slated for elimination.


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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
At some point there won't be anyway to connect AVRass with outdated front ends with great amps built in, to a newer state of the art preamp.
That is a situation that can be expected to relate to only a very tiny segment of the marketplace.

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Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
Seems like the 7.1+ avr inputs will be history which at this time would the only way to upgrade the front end of a avr,, that would be useful cost effective and very green.
If you want to talk resource conservation, adding 7.1 analog inputs uses resources, and if that feature is not being used by any but a tiny fraction of the marketplace, then it is wasted resources for the vast majority of everybody.

The power amplifiers in the vast majority of AVRs are nothing special, not that this represents any kind of sound quality loss because overbuilt power amps are a waste of resources all by themselves.

When I look at high end AVRs that weigh over 50 pounds I see a vast waste of resources because there is plenty of evidence that in actual usage, the lightweight version of that AVR weighing half as much will not be sonically degraded in any audible way.
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post #14 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post
Huh? Are you referring to my post or those of the thread starter?
Oops, the latter, my mistake.

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post #15 of 20 Old 07-21-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joehonest View Post
The freedom to recycle good amps in avrs is just about gone. RCA 7.1+ inputs are on there way out. I always check out the rear panel on the newest hardware, it makes me think the guy who writes the books for dummies, the yellow ones you read when you have no idea what something is about books has a hand in this.
What does "Are we being forced to buy separates?" and the loss of 7.1 analog inputs have to do with each other? There are a number of AVRs still available that have 7.1 analog inputs. So one isn't "forced" to buy separates to get a 7.1 analog input.


Denon 4520
Marantz 7008
Yamaha 3040 and 2040
Cambridge Audio 751R


There could be more AVRs being sold with a 7.1 analog input but the above were easy to find with a quick search.

Bill

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post #16 of 20 Old 07-22-2014, 07:51 AM
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Everything is getting worse.... YES they want us to spend MORE $$$$ buying crap that doesnt work as good!!!

If you can searfch online,goto thrift stores,etc AND GET BETTER OLDER STAFF that works and works well
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post #17 of 20 Old 07-22-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I believe the multichannel inputs go directly to the volume control.

That may still involve undesired extra circuitry, which can be avoided by buying a used multichannel amp.
If the AVR has some kind of pure direct mode, then there is very little but the analog domain volume control in the signal path. Typically the DSPs that implement just about everything else including bass management, are bypassed.
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post #18 of 20 Old 07-22-2014, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by arnyk View Post
If the AVR has some kind of pure direct mode, then there is very little but the analog domain volume control in the signal path.
I thought most stuff uses VCG (voltage controlled gain) chips; I don't recollect seeing 7 ganged pots in my 7.1 receivers.

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post #19 of 20 Old 07-22-2014, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I thought most stuff uses VCG (voltage controlled gain) chips; I don't recollect seeing 7 ganged pots in my 7.1 receivers.
Agreed. You call it a VCG, I called it an analog domain volume control. One and the same.

One point is that other than providing a pure analog path, the VCG is gratuitous in any AVR with a DSP, because DSPs do volume controlling splendidly.
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post #20 of 20 Old 07-22-2014, 02:22 PM
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I had assumed that MC inputs went away due to the prevalence of HDMI and most people using it. There's some pricey players with fancy DACs where someone might benefit from MC inputs.

In my experience it's rare to see any receiver with a true pre-main bridge*, but I swear I did see it once, allowing a person to use the receiver as a pre processor, power amp or both.

* By that, I mean on the back of the unit, there's a set of pre outs and main ins with connections between them that you can remove.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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