The "Official" 2014 Denon Atmos+XT32 Model Thread (X4100/X5200/X7200) - Page 18 - AVS Forum
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post #511 of 1038 Old 08-29-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kriilin View Post
I guess the million dollar question is will we care about Neo:X after hearing Dolby Surround? I'll be going straight from Dolby 5.1/DTS to Atmos/Dolby Surround, lol!
I don't think I will care much about Neo:X once I have Dolby Surround upmixing to all my overhead speakers. But I don't have Wides and for someone who has gone to the expense and trouble of installing Wides, I'd guess they might want to carry on using them. Personally, I can't see how a couple of Wides will trump 4 ceiling speakers, but that's just me.
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post #512 of 1038 Old 08-29-2014, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I don't think I will care much about Neo:X once I have Dolby Surround upmixing to all my overhead speakers. But I don't have Wides and for someone who has gone to the expense and trouble of installing Wides, I'd guess they might want to carry on using them. Personally, I can't see how a couple of Wides will trump 4 ceiling speakers, but that's just me.
Perhaps not, but as you know my surrounds will necessarily be slightly behind my MLP so the FW's will take on added significance in my circumstance; besides, the wides will only substitute for the TR since the FH will remain in use.

Still, as the saying goes, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Bring on that Atmos pudding!

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post #513 of 1038 Old 08-29-2014, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I don't think I will care much about Neo:X once I have Dolby Surround upmixing to all my overhead speakers. But I don't have Wides and for someone who has gone to the expense and trouble of installing Wides, I'd guess they might want to carry on using them. Personally, I can't see how a couple of Wides will trump 4 ceiling speakers, but that's just me.
Maybe in a really big listening room, the Wides will help fill in the gaps between the front and sides?

I think in my tiny place, I will skip and save some $$...

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post #514 of 1038 Old 08-29-2014, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Maybe in a really big listening room, the Wides will help fill in the gaps between the front and sides?

I think in my tiny place, I will skip and save some $$...
Out of curiosity, what size is your HT area? My room is roughly 13'w by 15.5'l by 9.5'h. I am playing with the idea of 7.1.4, but I'm thinking that may be overkill. I'd save $600 (plus two speakers) by going with the 4100W (5.1.4) vs the 5200W.

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post #515 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 12:57 AM
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That's me just about ready for Atmos. I will be using 4 Dali phantom kompas 6m in-ceiling Speakers. 5.2.4 just have to pick what amp to go for. Denon 4100 or 5200 bring it on.
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post #516 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 07:59 AM
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rear surrounds=atmos speakers

I have a 7.1 system in our family room with slanted ceilings conjoined by a center flat ceiling.My rear surrounds are at the rear areas of this slanted ceiling(about 8 ft off the floor).Is it possible to use these rear surrounds (since they are in the slanted ceiling ) as dolby Atmos speakers?.I will use the Dolby Atmos enabled modules on top of my front 2.5 Nht fronts.Technically, I would have reflective sound bouncing off my front slanted ceiling(from my enabled modules) and downward Atmos sound form my rear surrounds.By channeling Dolby Atmos to replace from rear surrounds,what will be the consequences to my surround system?( I can't add any more in ceiling or in wall speakers) Will this create a sound field MESS????.Need your advice and expertise,THX
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post #517 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
I have a 7.1 system in our family room with slanted ceilings conjoined by a center flat ceiling.My rear surrounds are at the rear areas of this slanted ceiling(about 8 ft off the floor).Is it possible to use these rear surrounds (since they are in the slanted ceiling ) as dolby Atmos speakers?.I will use the Dolby Atmos enabled modules on top of my front 2.5 Nht fronts.Technically, I would have reflective sound bouncing off my front slanted ceiling(from my enabled modules) and downward Atmos sound form my rear surrounds.By channeling Dolby Atmos to replace from rear surrounds,what will be the consequences to my surround system?( I can't add any more in ceiling or in wall speakers) Will this create a sound field MESS????.Need your advice and expertise,THX
You can mix Dolby Enabled with direct-firing speakers, if that's what you're concerned about.

My understanding is that, as implemented in D&M receivers, Dolby Atmos supports (up to) 4 overhead speakers. The front pair can be any of three types: Front Height, Top Front or Front Dolby Enabled. Similarly, the rear pair can be any of Rear Height, Top Rear or Rear Dolby Enabled. Whether you specify in the receiver whether a pair of direct-firing speakers is Height or Top depends on how close their positions are to the optimal angular placement for that designation. To say it somewhat differently, my understanding is that if their back-to-front position is closer to the seating, then they're Top speakers. If they're farther away, then they should be designated Height speakers.

Does this help?

Here are two relevant screen grabs from the Marantz SR7009 receiver's manual. Sorry, I don't have a 4100 or 5200 manual downloaded. They should be the same, though.
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post #518 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 08:52 AM
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Thanks for your help.The distance from the rear slanted ceiling speakers is approximately 20 ft. from the front 2.5 NHT speakers. Our sitting area is closer to the rear speakers, about 7 ft. away. Would the fact that we have upward firing and downward firing dolby atoms speakers be a big negative (sound going in two different directions)? Is this situation superior to just having the front dolby enabled modules and keep the rear speakers as rear surrounds instead of dolby atoms downward firing speakers. Your advice please?
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post #519 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
Thanks for your help.The distance from the rear slanted ceiling speakers is approximately 20 ft. from the front 2.5 NHT speakers. Our sitting area is closer to the rear speakers, about 7 ft. away. Would the fact that we have upward firing and downward firing dolby atoms speakers be a big negative (sound going in two different directions)?
No. From your seating position, the sounds from both types of speakers will seem to be coming from overhead.
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Is this situation superior to just having the front dolby enabled modules and keep the rear speakers as rear surrounds instead of dolby atoms downward firing speakers. Your advice please?
Having four overhead Atmos speakers would be superior to having only two, since that will let Atmos provide front-to-back motion in the overhead sounds. Since your (current) Rear Surround speakers actually are up in the air, I think they'll be more effective when designated as Rear Height, which tells the receiver that they are in fact elevated.

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post #520 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 09:33 AM
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That's me just about ready for Atmos. I will be using 4 Dali phantom kompas 6m in-ceiling Speakers. 5.2.4 just have to pick what amp to go for. Denon 4100 or 5200 bring it on.
That looks really nice!

I am anxious to hear back from you on the performance of the Atmos and especially DSU tech.

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post #521 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
Thanks for your help.The distance from the rear slanted ceiling speakers is approximately 20 ft. from the front 2.5 NHT speakers. Our sitting area is closer to the rear speakers, about 7 ft. away. Would the fact that we have upward firing and downward firing dolby atoms speakers be a big negative (sound going in two different directions)? Is this situation superior to just having the front dolby enabled modules and keep the rear speakers as rear surrounds instead of dolby atoms downward firing speakers. Your advice please?
Can you please provide some photos of your room? It would be a lot easier to help if we could visualize the room and layout more accurately.
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post #522 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 01:36 PM
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Now I'm not saying your analysis is wrong, but if you're right I still don't understand the logic given the AVR's amp-switching abilities (those wonderful clicking relays). Unless this generation has a switching limitation imposed by dint of the addition of Dolby Atmos processing.

I didn't say it was logical. In fact given what we know about the illogical Atmos configuration mode ..... we must simply accept "what is" or at least "what is for now."
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post #523 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 02:05 PM
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Hi Batpig, thanks for your help. Please review pictures of two fronts and center, two surround rears that are on the sloped ceiling about ten feet above listening area. Please note high surround speakers above bookcase and glass window. We have two sloped ceilings that apex at a flat ceiling with a fan. Is it possible to do two atmos enabled speakers on my two front NHT's and to use my two in-ceiling (circular) speakers at the rear of the back sloped ceiling? So in essence, we would have upward firing atmos in front of the tv and downward firing Atmos in the rear. Would you turn the surround rears into atmos and change my 7.1 to 5.1.4? The distance between the fronts and the rears is about 20 ft. and the listening area which is 7 ft. forward from the rears. Thank you for your expertise.










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post #524 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by toothsavers View Post
Hi Batpig, thanks for your help. Please review pictures of two fronts and center, two surround rears that are on the sloped ceiling about ten feet above listening area. Please note high surround speakers above bookcase and glass window. We have two sloped ceilings that apex at a flat ceiling with a fan. Is it possible to do two atmos enabled speakers on my two front NHT's and to use my two in-ceiling (circular) speakers at the rear of the back sloped ceiling? So in essence, we would have upward firing atmos in front of the tv and downward firing Atmos in the rear. Would you turn the surround rears into atmos and change my 7.1 to 5.1.4? The distance between the fronts and the rears is about 20 ft. and the listening area which is 7 ft. forward from the rears. Thank you for your expertise.









I think that will be a bit of a problem? But can be done

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post #525 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kriilin View Post
I guess the million dollar question is will we care about Neo:X after hearing Dolby Surround? I'll be going straight from Dolby 5.1/DTS to Atmos/Dolby Surround, lol!
So far from our experience that answer is no.

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post #526 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally had time today to uninstall the X4000 and hook up the new X5200W. Although they look virtually identical and have the same dimensions, I definitely noticed the extra heft of the X5200W lifting it up in comparison. The remotes are virtually identical (the only differences besides slightly different input names are the "InstaPrevue" button being replaced by the "Eco" button and the four "Favorites" buttons being replaced by "Quick Selects") and other than a change from white lettering to gold, the front panels are essentially identical too.





Around the back the extra build quality of the X5200W is more apparent, the gold plated connecters look higher end and the fancier binding posts are much nicer looking and provided a very secure grip on all of my motly assortment of banana plugs from different vendors.



Setup was a breeze of course (I've done this before ) but I appreciate how with each model year the Setup Wizard gets better and better, walking you through setup for speakers, network, inputs, etc. It's pretty foolproof at this point, you don't even have to learn how to assign input through the input menus if you just answer simple questions about what components are hooked up where.

There have been some nice improvements in the on-screen help info for running Audyssey. It warns you to keep mic positioning a good distance (I think 20") away from the back wall, which is a much appreciated addition since many people have their couches against the back wall in a typical living room setup. The inital graphic showing the cluster of 8 mic positions around the couch hews much more closely to the FAQ recommendations and dispels the idea of literally measuring each seat even if it's off axis. And as you move past the first position it specifically tells you to keep each subsequent measurement within 2ft of the first position -- so in addition to the humorously phallic rocket ship graphic, you get good advice about creating a tight cluster of measurements and staying away from room boundaries.

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post #527 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 09:32 PM
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Thanks for the play-by-play, Batpig!

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post #528 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately I had only minimal time today to play around with actual listening tests. I mentioned previously that (in the absence of any actual available Atmos modules) I was going to get a little crazy and try sitting a pair of extra speakes on my console, pointed up at the ceiling, and telling the receiver they are Front Dolby enabled speakers. They calibrated fine, but my limited testing confirmed that this is definitely not going to provide the intended effect.

Obvioulsy, I only have Dolby Surround upmixing to experiment with at this point, lacking any real Atmos conent. However, in my limited testing they didn't seem produce any obvious "discrete" sounding overhead effects. Rather, in A/B testing of standard 5.1 vs. 5.1+DSU, it just seemed to produce a vague sense of expanded "tallness" and atmosphere. My test clips were a few scenes from "300" (the best being the one where the Persian armies release a storm of arrows which fall from the sky upon the Spartans) on HD DVD (MultiCH In + DSU), a few scenes from "Gladiator" streamed off of Netflix (5.1 DD plus + DSU), and a bit of 2ch music streamed through Pandora.

I will reserve judgement until I can try more material, and obviously wil not render any firm conclusions until I have actual Atmos modules with which to test. However, I can say that I found the music upmixing to be very pleasant sounding with DSU (with Center Spread ON). I toggled back and forth between DTS Neo:X Music mode (which upmixes to my standard 5.1 speakers) and Dolby Surround (upmixing to 5.1 plus my fake-o upward firing speakers) and the DSU upmix was much more spacious and envelopming thanks to the extra dimension (literally) of the sound. When I would switch back to Neo:X I could feel the "top" of the sound get removed and it collapsed down to the circle of sound around me.

I will be heading out of town for the next few days so won't have much more time for testing. But overall it sounds great, was a snap to set up, and presented no glitches at this point. Once my wife heads to bed I will get to do some testing of late night mode with Dynamic Volume engaged and see if I can get any sense of the DSU height expansion at lower volumes with compressed dynamics.


EDIT for a few more bullet point notes:

- One thing I forgot to mention above about improvements in Audyssey setup are that there is no longer a separate "Calculate" and "Store" step at the end. This is a HUGE improvement in simple workflow because a lot of people screw up at the end and forget to hit "STORE" and then realize too late that they have to re-run the whole thing. Packaging it all into one step when you click "I'm done!" is a small bit of genius that is so subtle most people will never notice. Also while it's calculating it reminds you it's ok to unhook the microphone and also asks if you want to use DEQ / DV.

- One small change is that the "do you want to turn Dynamic Volume on?" question asked at the end of auto setup now defaults to "No". So if you blindly click the OK button through the end of auto setup you will end up with Audyssey Reference target curve, Dynamic EQ on, and Dynamic Volume off.

- A few little thoughts -- remote app connected quickly, web interface was also snappy, and it was easy to log onto Pandora from my iPad since the app allows you to use the iPad keyboard to enter email/password info.

- The Audyssey curve has been renamed as "Reference" and Graphic EQ has been removed from the MultEQ options which was confusing and implied that it allowed you to tweak Audyssey itself. Now the Graphic EQ menu is grayed out unless MultEQ is set to OFF.
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post #529 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 09:56 PM
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Finally had time today to uninstall the X4000 and hook up the new X5200W.
Great pics, bp. Looking forward to your object based thoughts. And keep the pics coming.

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post #530 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 10:03 PM
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How was the audessey calibration with Atmos?
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post #531 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 10:28 PM
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@batpig
what is the speaker trim limit? still the same +/-12DB ?
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post #532 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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How was the audessey calibration with Atmos?
No different than other calibration. From the perspective of the end user it's just like any other Audyssey run.

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post #533 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 10:42 PM - Thread Starter
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@batpig
what is the speaker trim limit? still the same +/-12DB ?
Yes. Still +/-12db.

But as an FYI there was a complete overhaul of the channel level adjustment concept this year (not just the 5200 but the whole 2014 lineup). For all Denons forever the ch level adjust was per surround mode family; this year the ch level trims are set globally in the speakers menu, and then you can make RELATIVE adjustments BY INPUT, not by surround mode.

The new "relative adjustment" ch level menu is accessed via the Option button and defaults to 0 for all speakers, and then you can tweak any speaker +/-12db more from the global baseline, for that input source.

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post #534 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 10:42 PM
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I will be heading out of town for the next few days so won't have much more time for testing.
How dare you, at a time like this!

Glad you posted some initial thoughts on DSU with 2-channel music. As long as it kept things subtle and didn't create any overhead distractions, it might end up as well liked as the PLII family of modes.

Safe travels.

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post #535 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 11:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice added touch on the on screen Info button graphic, now it shows the MultEQ / Dyn EQ / Dyn Vol audyssey states below the input signal and surround info.
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post #536 of 1038 Old 08-30-2014, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Nice added touch on the on screen Info button graphic, now it shows the MultEQ / Dyn EQ / Dyn Vol audyssey states below the input signal and surround info.

Does the EXT in input signal mean Dolby Atmos EXTensions?
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post #537 of 1038 Old 08-31-2014, 12:07 AM
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Does the EXT in input signal mean Dolby Atmos EXTensions?
I have the same question. Also in the 'active speaker' section what does 'FDL' and 'FDR' stand for? I have a feeling I will have a slap your head moment when you tell me but right now I cant think of what it would stand for. Be gentle.

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post #538 of 1038 Old 08-31-2014, 12:19 AM
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I have the same question. Also in the 'active speaker' section what does 'FDL' and 'FDR' stand for? I have a feeling I will have a slap your head moment when you tell me but right now I cant think of what it would stand for. Be gentle.

FDL = Front Dolby Left (Front Top Left)
FDR = Front Dolby Right (Front Top Right)




This is because Batpig is using Dolby Surround to make use of his home-made Dolby Speakers extensions, due to the lack of native Atmos content.

Last edited by Manni01; 08-31-2014 at 12:23 AM.
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post #539 of 1038 Old 08-31-2014, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
FDL = Front Dolby Left (Front Top Left)
FDR = Front Dolby Right (Front Top Right)




This is because Batpig is using Dolby Surround to make use of his home-made Dolby Speakers extensions, due to the lack of native Atmos content.
Cool, thanks. I did actually mutter that to myself but then I thought it sounded kind of goofy so I convinced myself that couldn't be it. Go figure. I wonder if that would also work for DTS if these receivers can be upgraded with UHD?!?

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post #540 of 1038 Old 08-31-2014, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
FDL = Front Dolby Left (Front Top Left)
FDR = Front Dolby Right (Front Top Right)




This is because Batpig is using Dolby Surround to make use of his home-made Dolby Speakers extensions, due to the lack of native Atmos content.
Small nitpick but it would say FDL/FDR even with native Atmos content. The key distinction is using "Dolby enabled" upward firing speakers vs physically elevated height speakers.

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