The "Official" 2014 Denon Atmos+XT32 Model Thread (X4100/X5200/X7200) - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 04:14 AM
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^^
In past years, only the flagship model has been "designed" to power 4-ohm to reference volume levels which is also likely the case for 2014 as well (ie. X7200W). In other words, although all models can power 4-ohm speakers to average TV listening levels, if you want loud movie reference levels, you'll either most likely want to add an external amp (X3100W, X4100W, X5200W) or wait for the X7200W.

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post #602 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 04:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cischico View Post
Is the X5200 not able to power 4-ohm speakers at reference volume levels or is it just the X7200 better able to because of the higher power rating?
The 5200 is designed to power 4ohm speakers at reference.

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post #603 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 04:22 AM
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Thanks gentlemen, I have two crown amps, but was curious. I wanted to power 3 or 4 channels on the x5200 at reference. My speakers are 4-6 ohm
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post #604 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 04:27 AM
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^^
As long as the FL/C/FR are on external amps, you should be fine.

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post #605 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 04:54 AM
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Speaker sensitivity (efficiency) also is an important factor. To get to reference levels (105dB) at your primary listening position, speaker efficiencies of 90dB/w/meter or higher often are needed. Otherwise you'll want to turn up the volume control too far, which risks clipping, which causes high distortion and potentially can damage tweeters. Calculators like that provided by Harman/Crown can help evaluate this situation. See http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

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post #606 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
Could you please post some photos of your room? What's your first treatment for the first -3dB....and what's your 2nd treatment for the second -3dB?
I treated the room in two stages. The first stage used several acoustic panels and the second stage added several more. I can't post photos of the first and second stages as I don't have any - only the final result. All in all, about 6dB was 'absorbed' by the treatments, which is more or less what I expected to happen. All that energy that was bouncing around the room before, is now absorbed.


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post #607 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
In past years, only the flagship model has been "designed" to power 4-ohm to reference volume levels which is also likely the case for 2014 as well (ie. X7200W). In other words, although all models can power 4-ohm speakers to average TV listening levels, if you want loud movie reference levels, you'll either most likely want to add an external amp (X3100W, X4100W, X5200W) or wait for the X7200W.
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Speaker sensitivity (efficiency) also is an important factor. To get to reference levels (105dB) at your primary listening position, speaker efficiencies of 90dB/w/meter or higher often are needed. Otherwise you'll want to turn up the volume control too far, which risks clipping, which causes high distortion and potentially can damage tweeters. Calculators like that provided by Harman/Crown can help evaluate this situation. See http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm
I'm planning on purchasing the X5200 along with four SP-EBS73-LR Pioneer AJ Atmos bookshelf speakers for L/R/SL/SR and the SP-EC73 center. The specs for the bookshelf speakers are below. The center also has the same specs shown in red below.

The MLP is 2.5 meters form the L/C/R. Do you think I will have trouble driving these speakers to a moderately loud (say ~80dB) volume without clipping, with the X5200?

Specifications
› Enclosure .................................................. .....................Bass-reflex
› Configuration..................................... ....................................3-way
› Frequency Range............................................. ........50 Hz - 20 kHz
› Nominal Impedance......................................... .................4 Ohms
› Sensitivity (2.83 V) .................................................. ...............85 dB
› Maximum Input Power............................................. ............ 140 W
› Crossover Frequency......................................... .... 260Hz, 2.6 kHz
› Finish .................................................. ...........................Black Vinyl
› Magnetically Shielded.......................................... .....................No
› Dimensions (without Grille).......7.4” x 14.8” x 8.7” (W x H x D inch)
› Dimensions (with Grille).............7.4” x 15.7” x 9.7” (W x H x D inch)
› Weight (Each)............................................ ..........................15.7 lbs
› Woofer............................................ .....................5-1/4” Aluminum
› Midrange .................................................. ............... 4” Aluminum
› Tweeter........................................... ...........................1” Soft Dome
› UPC............................................... ............................012562909202

I'm just a caveman. Your modern world frightens and confuses me.

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post #608 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 10:52 AM
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Probably. Maybe. I dunno.

Unfortunately they seem to have all of what I would consider to be problematic characteristics: low impedance, low efficiency. and a limited maximum wattage. While they most likely would work fine in a small room and/or if you sit "close" to them, I would not be a bit surprised if they had difficulty providing party music in a home with a large "open concept" living space.

But I tend to be pessimistic. Try them. But make sure you have the right to return them if they don't work for you.

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post #609 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Probably. Maybe. I dunno.

Unfortunately they seem to have all of what I would consider to be problematic characteristics: low impedance, low efficiency. and a limited maximum wattage. While they most likely would work fine in a small room and/or if you sit "close" to them, I would not be a bit surprised if they had difficulty providing party music in a home with a large "open concept" living space.

But I tend to be pessimistic. Try them. But make sure you have the right to return them if they don't work for you.
FilmMixer should be getting his Pioneer Atmos speakers soon. He is getting the floor standers for the FL/FR (86 dB sensitivity) but shouldn't make too much difference. Presuming he connects the Pioneer speakers directly to the X5200 without external amps, I'll ask for his opinion.
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post #610 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 11:42 AM
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FilmMixer should be getting his Pioneer Atmos speakers soon.
Ah, so that's why we haven't heard from him yet.

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post #611 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 12:04 PM
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Minimalist Height speakers?

So - I guess I joined the "Ordered an X5200W" club - should be here "Thursday or next Tuesday" from my local Magnolia design center.

My question - I already have more speakers than my little livingroom can handle -Energy Veritas 2.3, 2.2, 2.0c and 2.0r surround - and I want to add the Atmos channel speakers... two of them, I guess. Looking at something like the Orb speakers, that could be added on top of my current speakers firing up. I can't see that this would be much different from Atmos speakers with a speaker firing up mounted on them. Two enough? Or four? 19? Any thoughts?

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post #612 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by LDBecker View Post
So - I guess I joined the "Ordered an X5200W" club - should be here "Thursday or next Tuesday" from my local Magnolia design center.

My question - I already have more speakers than my little livingroom can handle -Energy Veritas 2.3, 2.2, 2.0c and 2.0r surround - and I want to add the Atmos channel speakers... two of them, I guess. Looking at something like the Orb speakers, that could be added on top of my current speakers firing up. I can't see that this would be much different from Atmos speakers with a speaker firing up mounted on them. Two enough? Or four? 19? Any thoughts?

Larry
Yes - get proper Atmos modules. Regular speakers are unlikely to work. The Atmos upfiring speaker is a special design with the driver inside a fairly deep recess to help prevent sound leakage in a forward direction. Onkyo, Pioneer and others make Atmos modules, with the Onkyo models being especially inexpensive. Expect a lot more to be announced at Cedia.


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post #613 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Probably. Maybe. I dunno.

Unfortunately they seem to have all of what I would consider to be problematic characteristics: low impedance, low efficiency. and a limited maximum wattage. While they most likely would work fine in a small room and/or if you sit "close" to them, I would not be a bit surprised if they had difficulty providing party music in a home with a large "open concept" living space.

But I tend to be pessimistic. Try them. But make sure you have the right to return them if they don't work for you.
FWIW, I agree with you. HT speakers need to be able to take loads of power and be able to hit 105dB peaks comfortably without audible distortion. In a smaller room, or for someone who listens at modest SPLs, those might be fine though.


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post #614 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 12:21 PM
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Yes - get proper Atmos modules. Regular speakers are unlikely to work. The Atmos upfiring speaker is a special design with the driver inside a fairly deep recess to help prevent sound leakage in a forward direction. Onkyo, Pioneer and others make Atmos modules, with the Onkyo models being especially inexpensive. Expect a lot more to be announced at Cedia.
Ok - thanks - I won't rush into anything. The Onkyo website talks about a "Dolby-Atmos certified network that allows the angled full-range driver to beam sound 'objects' -such as birdcalls or an aircraft- off your ceiling and into your ears." This is MUCH more complicated - and likely expensive - than I imagined it would be, although the Amazon listing for the Onkyo modules is $249 for two (not available yet). I'll just wait a bit and get to know the receiver.
Why is there so much discussion about adding ceiling speakers or repurposing back surround speakers. From what I just read, that doesn't sound optimal.

Thanks for the heads up!
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post #615 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 12:27 PM
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Ok - thanks - I won't rush into anything. The Onkyo website talks about a "Dolby-Atmos certified network that allows the angled full-range driver to beam sound 'objects' -such as birdcalls or an aircraft- off your ceiling and into your ears." This is MUCH more complicated - and likely expensive - than I imagined it would be, although the Amazon listing for the Onkyo modules is $249 for two (not available yet). I'll just wait a bit and get to know the receiver.
Why is there so much discussion about adding ceiling speakers or repurposing back surround speakers. From what I just read, that doesn't sound optimal.

Thanks for the heads up!
Larry
It depends on what you consider "optimal". Adding speakers in or on the ceiling provides more precise imaging. Repurposing back surrounds minimizes labor and additional expense. Many of us have listening environments that already are far from optimal. What's one more compromise?

(Personally, I'm planning to add 6 speakers to my current 5.1 configuration. I'm still frustrating over exactly what configuration to use, though.)

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post #616 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LDBecker View Post
Ok - thanks - I won't rush into anything. The Onkyo website talks about a "Dolby-Atmos certified network that allows the angled full-range driver to beam sound 'objects' -such as birdcalls or an aircraft- off your ceiling and into your ears." This is MUCH more complicated - and likely expensive - than I imagined it would be, although the Amazon listing for the Onkyo modules is $249 for two (not available yet). I'll just wait a bit and get to know the receiver.
Why is there so much discussion about adding ceiling speakers or repurposing back surround speakers. From what I just read, that doesn't sound optimal.

Thanks for the heads up!
Larry
What Selden said. Plus... waiting a little while makes sense now that CEDIA is almost upon us. Officially, Atmos hasn’t 'launched' yet, so there are sure to be some interesting announcements etc soon from various manufacturers. It can be seen as complicated, but having heard home Atmos I can tell you that it is definitely worth it. It's the biggest step forward for a long time.


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post #617 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 12:51 PM
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And comments like that make it hard to wait. Life is short, I'm not getting younger
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post #618 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 01:06 PM
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And comments like that make it hard to wait. Life is short, I'm not getting younger
You and me both It is hard to wait. But CEDIA is in less than 2 weeks now. And personally, if my Denon arrives next week, as it might, I will be up and running (with Dolby Surround anyway) before CEIDA.


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post #619 of 1284 Old 09-03-2014, 03:15 PM
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You and me both It is hard to wait. But CEDIA is in less than 2 weeks now. And personally, if my Denon arrives next week, as it might, I will be up and running (with Dolby Surround anyway) before CEIDA.
Heh, since we're counting and people are going crazy, CEDIA opens its doors a week from tomorrow. Can't wait to hear demos and get more white papers and find out about software releases.

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As Selden noted, modern receivers use a different volume scale than older models, such that average volume will be 50-70 with likely nothing heard at 25 as you experienced. Also, if your Dali speakers are 4-ohm, your AVR average volume level will be much higher than most owners that use 8-ohm speakers. If you prefer really loud audio for movies, you may need to consider adding an external amp (eg. 300W, Emotiva XPA-2 or XPA-3) or upgrading to the new flagship model X7200W when available in December which will be designed to power 4-ohm speakers at reference volume levels.
The weird thing is that if I set the audio setting to "Multichannel Stereo", it is loud. However, if I use Dolby Surround or Dolby Neo T, it is very quiet. I hope that gives some clue to why happens.

Thank you again for your response. I am not sure if I can afford an external amp atm. Just trying to eliminate all the other potential problems.
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post #621 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 02:10 AM
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^^
Multi CH Stereo would be expected to be much louder as it puts the same stereo content in all speaker pairs.

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post #622 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 04:16 AM
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Talking

That's my in ceiling speakers finally finished, I used 4 hoody 1 fire and Acoustic speaker hoods, and then I soundproofed them so you can't here them in the upstairs bedrooms. So then I had a listen to them in stereo, they sound really good. Just waiting on the Denon 5200 amp to arrive now, looking forward to atmos now.
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post #624 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 04:48 AM
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That's my in ceiling speakers finally finished, I used 4 hoody 1 fire and Acoustic speaker hoods, and then I soundproofed them so you can't here them in the upstairs bedrooms. So then I had a listen to them in stereo, they sound really good. Just waiting on the Denon 5200 amp to arrive now, looking forward to atmos now.
Looking forward to your report on whether the X5200W can power your 4-ohm setup to reference volume 0db without using external amps and without shutting down in protection mode.

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post #625 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I treated the room in two stages. The first stage used several acoustic panels and the second stage added several more. I can't post photos of the first and second stages as I don't have any - only the final result. All in all, about 6dB was 'absorbed' by the treatments, which is more or less what I expected to happen. All that energy that was bouncing around the room before, is now absorbed.
So I guess the question would then be, how much wall coverage did you perform as a percentage of total?


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post #626 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 07:29 AM
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That's my in ceiling speakers finally finished, I used 4 hoody 1 fire and Acoustic speaker hoods, and then I soundproofed them so you can't here them in the upstairs bedrooms. So then I had a listen to them in stereo, they sound really good. Just waiting on the Denon 5200 amp to arrive now, looking forward to atmos now.
Looks good, cleanly done!

BTW, interesting place for the glass of red wine?

Al
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post #627 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post
Looks good, cleanly done!

BTW, interesting place for the glass of red wine?
Do you think if that was real it would still be sitting there. It is a party lite candle.
Thanks

AV Denon POA-T2-T3 power amps, Oppo-103D , PS4, HD JVC DLA-X3 projector, Subs 2 (DIY) fi ht15 subs inuke dsp 6000. Speakers Dali Helicon 400 C200 phantom ikon in wall & 4 phantom kompas 6m in ceiling, Mark grant cables.
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post #628 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 08:45 AM
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Wink

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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Yes - get proper Atmos modules. Regular speakers are unlikely to work. The Atmos upfiring speaker is a special design with the driver inside a fairly deep recess to help prevent sound leakage in a forward direction. Onkyo, Pioneer and others make Atmos modules, with the Onkyo models being especially inexpensive. Expect a lot more to be announced at Cedia.
I'll let you know how my "experiment" goes. I'm placing a pair of Axiom Audio M22's on top of the 6' oak entertainment towers (about 18-20" from the ceiling), angled up, and toward the MLP.

All I need now is my SR7009!

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post #629 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nucky View Post
Do you think if that was real it would still be sitting there. It is a party lite candle.
Thanks
PHEW! you had me worried that a good vintage could be besiged by a band of marauding fruit flies!
nucky likes this.

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post #630 of 1284 Old 09-04-2014, 09:11 AM
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Question Dolby white paper out ??

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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
5) To reiterate, whatever you decide I would hold off a week or two on installation to verify speaker placement angles as recommended in the upcoming Dolby white paper.
Any news about the upcoming white paper ?
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