The "Official" 2014 Denon Atmos+XT32 Model Thread (X4100/X5200/X7200) - Page 23 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #661 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
What are the weight differences between the 4311, the 4520, the 5200, and the 7200?

Thank you for your cooperation.
why dont you want the 5308's weight differences as well....since you are looking at a few discontinued receivers in that mix anyway

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post #662 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 10:35 PM
 
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Yes I am sure strata-gee.com gets a ton of breaking news stories Could be no one cares though which is why it isn't anywhere else? Who knows.
I got the link from a very reliable source.
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post #663 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 10:37 PM
 
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
why dont you want the 5308's weight differences as well....since you are looking at a few discontinued receivers in that mix anyway

Warren
Thank you for your cooperation.
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post #664 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 10:44 PM
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I jumped the gun and ordered a Denon AVR x5200w. I wasn't aware that a 7200 was even on the planning stages.

I have a 7.1 (really 7.2 (have 2 subw) right now and intended to make a 7.1.4 or 7.2.4 Atmos system. I saw that x5200w was 9 channel but 11 with an external Amp.
So I bought it.
However, now that I see the 7200 is on the horizon I am wondering if I should have waited.

I knew I needed an external amp for the additional two channels.
However, If I am going to spend $$$ that will will make the 5200 + the external amp in the same price range as the 7200 is that a preferable way to go?
Or, will it not really make a difference.
Also, can anyone recommend a good quality but reasonably priced external amp ro add to the 5200?
If necessary, I can return but want to know if what the pros and cons are at this point.

I considered the Onkyo but decided I wanted the Audyssey set up for calibration .

THanks for help and consideration
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post #665 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
I jumped the gun and ordered a Denon AVR x5200w. I wasn't aware that a 7200 was even on the planning stages.

I have a 7.1 (really 7.2 (have 2 subw) right now and intended to make a 7.1.4 or 7.2.4 Atmos system. I saw that x5200w was 9 channel but 11 with an external Amp.
So I bought it.
However, now that I see the 7200 is on the horizon I am wondering if I should have waited.

I knew I needed an external amp for the additional two channels.
However, If I am going to spend $$$ that will will make the 5200 + the external amp in the same price range as the 7200 is that a preferable way to go?
Or, will it not really make a difference.
Also, can anyone recommend a good quality but reasonably priced external amp ro add to the 5200?
If necessary, I can return but want to know if what the pros and cons are at this point.

I considered the Onkyo but decided I wanted the Audyssey set up for calibration .

THanks for help and consideration
The 7200 is only 9 channels and requires a two channel amp as well.

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post #666 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
I jumped the gun and ordered a Denon AVR x5200w. I wasn't aware that a 7200 was even on the planning stages.

I have a 7.1 (really 7.2 (have 2 subw) right now and intended to make a 7.1.4 or 7.2.4 Atmos system. I saw that x5200w was 9 channel but 11 with an external Amp.
So I bought it.
However, now that I see the 7200 is on the horizon I am wondering if I should have waited.

I knew I needed an external amp for the additional two channels.
However, If I am going to spend $$$ that will will make the 5200 + the external amp in the same price range as the 7200 is that a preferable way to go?
Or, will it not really make a difference.
Also, can anyone recommend a good quality but reasonably priced external amp ro add to the 5200?
If necessary, I can return but want to know if what the pros and cons are at this point.

I considered the Onkyo but decided I wanted the Audyssey set up for calibration .

THanks for help and consideration
I believe the X7200 is supposed to have 9 channels of on-board amplification just like the X5200 just with slightly more power per channel. So either way, you would have to get a separate amp to go the full 7.x.4 route that is available with the first gen Atmos AVR's & prepros.

Edit: damn forgot to refresh before posting as Sikclown beat me to it

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post #667 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esappy View Post
I believe the X7200 is supposed to have 9 channels of on-board amplification just like the X5200 just with slightly more power per channel. So either way, you would have to get a separate amp to go the full 7.x.4 route that is available with the first gen Atmos AVR's & prepros.

THanks...Seemed to be a steep price difference for just a little more power.
If the only difference is just a little more power then I have no worries....the supplied power will be plenty already in the 5200. BTW...any external amp recommendations?
I see in different places the 5200 being a 9.2 or a 9.1. I guess I will see when it finally comes...LOL
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post #668 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
THanks...Seemed to be a steep price difference for just a little more power.
If the only difference is just a little more power then I have no worries....the supplied power will be plenty already in the 5200. BTW...any external amp recommendations?
I see in different places the 5200 being a 9.2 or a 9.1. I guess I will see when it finally comes...LOL
We really don't know what the differences between the two Denons will be yet because no official info has been released yet for the 7200 and per JDSmoothie he believes it will be about November before we do hear about it. But I'm pretty sure you would enjoy the 5200. A few members have it in hand now and really seem to like it.

As far as what the 5200 can do, just go back a couple pages in this thread and look at Filmixer's and Batpig's reviews of the unit.

For amp recommendations, several people have suggested getting an Audiosource amp from Amazon. It has enough power to run a pair of Atmos/height speakers for fairly cheap. Or you can take a chance with your local craigslist or ebay.

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Last edited by esappy; 09-05-2014 at 11:13 PM.
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post #669 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 11:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
THanks...Seemed to be a steep price difference for just a little more power.
If the only difference is just a little more power then I have no worries....the supplied power will be plenty already in the 5200. BTW...any external amp recommendations?
I see in different places the 5200 being a 9.2 or a 9.1. I guess I will see when it finally comes...LOL
There really is no such thing as "point 2" in terms of actual output, there is only one mono sub channel output regardless of how many physical sub outputs or actual subs there are.

All of these receivers with xt32 have dual sub outs AND a feature called SubEQ HT which does independent distance and level adjustments for the two sub outputs (as opposed to a simple splitter found for many lower models). There is no difference in this regard between the 4100, 5200 and 7200.

There will definitely be other differences in the 7200, we just don't know what they all are yet. We do know however that it will also have 9 amps built in with 11ch max simultaneous output.

For external amp recommendations it really depends on the specifics of your setup. What kind of speakers are you running? How big is the room? How loud do you want to play? If you don't need a lot of power then an easy inexpensive amp is the Audiosource AMP 100 at just over $100.

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post #670 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
I jumped the gun and ordered a Denon AVR x5200w. I wasn't aware that a 7200 was even on the planning stages.

I have a 7.1 (really 7.2 (have 2 subw) right now and intended to make a 7.1.4 or 7.2.4 Atmos system. I saw that x5200w was 9 channel but 11 with an external Amp.
So I bought it.
However, now that I see the 7200 is on the horizon I am wondering if I should have waited.

I knew I needed an external amp for the additional two channels.
However, If I am going to spend $$$ that will will make the 5200 + the external amp in the same price range as the 7200 is that a preferable way to go?
Or, will it not really make a difference.
Also, can anyone recommend a good quality but reasonably priced external amp ro add to the 5200?
If necessary, I can return but want to know if what the pros and cons are at this point.

I considered the Onkyo but decided I wanted the Audyssey set up for calibration .

THanks for help and consideration

From what I understand the X4100 and X5200 will be closer to the X4000 which was just an evolution of the 3313 series Denon models. The X7200 is the next evolution of the 4311/4520 which should have superior internal components (DACs, Signal chain, processing, etc).

While you probably won't be able hear much of an audible difference (outside of room eq) between the 3313, x4000, x4100, x5200 (even if there was one) there's a much greater chance you'd hear an audible difference between those models and the 4520 & x7200.

The details of the internals rarely make it on a feature comparison/spec sheet. Which is unfortunate. And when they do most people dismiss the tiny details such as AL32 processing and 32-bit dacs since it's impossible to hear the difference between a good dac and a great dac. But the rest of the signal chain that goes along with that great dac might make an audible difference outside the dac alone. Same goes for how the amplifiers are implemented.

Hopefully someone does a tear down and gets all the details.
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post #671 of 11339 Old 09-05-2014, 11:53 PM
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Sound and Vision has a Q&A with Auro 3D that is worth a read. They give some details about differences between Auro 3D and Atmos. And they have announced their own new receiver with an entry price of a cool $16,700! when they actually arrive here in the States. They also hint at Auro 3D encoded blurays will be available before the end of the year. Until they get this integrated into mass market AVR's, Atmos will retain the advantage. Can't wait to hear what announcements will be made at CEDIA next week.

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post #672 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 12:09 AM
 
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♦ 4311 = 38.2 pounds.
♦ 4520 = 36.3 pounds.
♦ 5200 = 31.1 pounds.
♦ 7200 = ?
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Last edited by NorthSky; 09-06-2014 at 12:19 AM. Reason: ?
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post #673 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
THanks...Seemed to be a steep price difference for just a little more power.
If the only difference is just a little more power then I have no worries....the supplied power will be plenty already in the 5200. BTW...any external amp recommendations?
I see in different places the 5200 being a 9.2 or a 9.1. I guess I will see when it finally comes...LOL
Here's a question, what receiver are you going to be replacing? I'm assuming that since you're playing in this level of receiver, you're replacing a unit that has pre-ins. If that's the case, you could just use those to drive the extra channels. I'll be doing that with my 10 y.o. NAD T-761. You could sync them with either the 12V trigger or through a Harmony remote.

OTOH, if you came from the HTIB forum, disregard everything I said!

I see dead pixels.......
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post #674 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 02:27 PM
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Here's a question, what receiver are you going to be replacing? I'm assuming that since you're playing in this level of receiver, you're replacing a unit that has pre-ins. If that's the case, you could just use those to drive the extra channels. I'll be doing that with my 10 y.o. NAD T-761. You could sync them with either the 12V trigger or through a Harmony remote.

OTOH, if you came from the HTIB forum, disregard everything I said!
I am glad you asked that...I was wondering if I could use my old receiver. The receiver I am replacing is a Sony DA5300ES I bought 7 years ago...here is a Crutchfield link...http://www.crutchfield.com/S-mbQmpS6...-DA5300ES.html At the time, this was the Sony ES line flagship.
SO you are saying I can use this receiver to power the oterh channels and not buy another amp...that would certainly help my wallet...LOL... I think I should have enough room in my rack.
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component video switching (3 in, 1 out)
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digital inputs: 5 optical (including 1 front panel), 3 coaxial
digital outputs: 1 optical
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post #675 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 02:31 PM
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^^
Yes, an old AVR can be used to add channels to any of these Atmos models, either connecting to EXT IN inputs or the regular analog inputs using DIRECT/PURE DIRECT surround mode.
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post #676 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 03:14 PM
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Since the Sony 5300 has multichannel analog inputs, you can use it to drive more than just two of the overheads. Offloading the front speakers to it can be particularly advantageous, especially if they're 4 Ohm speakers.

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post #677 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 03:46 PM
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Since the Sony 5300 has multichannel analog inputs, you can use it to drive more than just two of the overheads. Offloading the front speakers to it can be particularly advantageous, especially if they're 4 Ohm speakers.
I have a 7.2 set up that was just installed with the plan to add 4 ceilings when Atmos came out.

the front 3 are Triad inRoom Silvers. they are 4 ohms.
The remaining 4 are inRoom Satellites they are 8ohms.
There are 2 SVS subsw...
Have not picked out ceilings yet...waiting to hear back from Triad about those.

I am not sure of the benefits of offloading the fronts to the SOny as opposed to just using the sony for the extra ceilings...does it have to do with heat generation ? Better sound? I am open to all suggestions and since this sounds like the way I am going to do it I might as well do it the best way...LOL
thanks
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post #678 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
I have a 7.2 set up that was just installed with the plan to add 4 ceilings when Atmos came out.

the front 3 are Triad inRoom Silvers. they are 4 ohms.
The remaining 4 are inRoom Satellites they are 8ohms.
There are 2 SVS subsw...
Have not picked out ceilings yet...waiting to hear back from Triad about those.

I am not sure of the benefits of offloading the fronts to the SOny as opposed to just using the sony for the extra ceilings...does it have to do with heat generation ? Better sound? I am open to all suggestions and since this sounds like the way I am going to do it I might as well do it the best way...LOL
thanks
Unfortunately, except for their top of the line receivers, the amps in Denon receivers tend to be unable to drive 4 Ohm speakers to high volume levels. They usually go into protection mode when that's attempted. Using your Sony to drive the front speakers would avoid this issue.

Presumably, Denon's as-yet-unavailable AVR X7200W would be able to drive them, but it'll be quite a bit more expensive than the 5200 or 4100.

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post #679 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Unfortunately, except for their top of the line receivers, the amps in Denon receivers tend to be unable to drive 4 Ohm speakers to high volume levels. They usually go into protection mode when that's attempted. Using your Sony to drive the front speakers would avoid this issue.

Presumably, Denon's as-yet-unavailable AVR X7200W would be able to drive them, but it'll be quite a bit more expensive than the 5200 or 4100.
I am happy to use the Sony to drive th front 4 ohms...heck, I feel better having learned above that I can use it now instead of a new Amp and having to toss it.
Question: If I understand correctly, the Sony can do 120w/ch at 8 ohms x 7 channels and the Denon can fo 140 w/ch
However, Is the fact that I am only going to use the SOny to power 3 front 4 ohm speakers mean that I will be able to send more power to them since the total putput of 120 x7 is only going to 3 channels? In other words...I will be able to play fronts at reference level if done throught he SOny?

Is there an advantage or any particular reason not to drive the 3 fronts and sub witht he DEnon and use the SOny to do the 4 surrounds and ceiling? In other words...does it make a difference which receiver drives which speakers? And, am I correct to assume I will be able to go to reference levels? (honestly, I really do not think I will need to ..seems pretty loud to me t non ref levels already....LOL)
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post #680 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danrudy View Post
I have a 7.2 set up that was just installed with the plan to add 4 ceilings when Atmos came out.

the front 3 are Triad inRoom Silvers. they are 4 ohms.
The remaining 4 are inRoom Satellites they are 8ohms.
There are 2 SVS subsw...
Have not picked out ceilings yet...waiting to hear back from Triad about those.

I am not sure of the benefits of offloading the fronts to the SOny as opposed to just using the sony for the extra ceilings...does it have to do with heat generation ? Better sound? I am open to all suggestions and since this sounds like the way I am going to do it I might as well do it the best way...LOL
thanks
I'd wager for most people the Eco mode 4ohm setting would provide plenty of power and output.

If I were in your situation though, instead if futzing with 2 AVR's I would add either a simple Audiosource amp for the overhead speakers or something like an Emotiva for the front LCR if you felt the 5200 wasn't giving you the output you would like. Try the 5200 by itself with the Triads before buying and connecting the overheads and see what you think.
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post #681 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 06:02 PM
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Dan,

The power for the individual speakers is limited by the individual amps, so I suspect the Sony would still be limited to 120W/ch when driving 8 Ohms.

The design of the amps limits the total current one of them can provide. 4 Ohm speakers need more current than 8 Ohm speakers do. Denon amps usually can't deliver enough current to drive 4 Ohm speakers to their maximum possible sound level. Enabling the current limiter ensures that the maximum safe value isn't exceeded (thus preventing the receiver from going into protection mode), but also limits the maximum sound level.

The total power delivered to all of the speakers simultaneously is limited by the receiver's single, shared power supply, so splitting the amplification between two receivers will allow the aggregate maximum power (and thus the sound level deliverable from all of the speakers simultaneously) to be higher than it would otherwise be.

Bear in mind that people normally listen to movies and music at sound levels which are much lower than the maximum, rarely exceeding more than about 20W/channel. Short term impulses (like explosions) often can cause them to need to provide much more, though.

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post #682 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post
I'd wager for most people the Eco mode 4ohm setting would provide plenty of power and output.
Agreed. So no reason to even use the 4-ohm or 6-ohm setting, but a great reason to use the ECO mode setting. The vast majority of owners don't even come close to using max available power, so reducing available power using ECO mode should cause no noticeable problem for most owners, not to mention possible reduction in temperature as well to better ensure longevity of the unit.
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post #683 of 11339 Old 09-06-2014, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW (cross posted in the Atmos thread as well) -- I popped into my local Best Buy Magnolia Design Center here in San Diego (Mission Valley location) this evening. I asked the two reps if they had the Def Tech A60 Atmos Elevation modules, and they are in fact IN STOCK right NOW. I almost bought them just to test out (and may still do so).

I also asked if they were going to set up an Atmos demo room since they had them in stock and they said they weren't going to. I pointed out that their speaker demo room already has in-ceiling speakers plus speakers all over each wall which would make it easy to do Atmos... but they noted that it isn't so easy because of their speaker switching system (all the in-ceiling speakers will be hooked up to FR/FL to be demo'd for stereo music playback) so they'd really have to do a dedicated room, and that wasn't going to happen at this point. They also told me (not surprised) that I was the first person to ever ask them about Atmos.

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post #684 of 11339 Old 09-07-2014, 02:17 AM
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Hey I'm late to this thread because I was set on purchasing the X3100W. I listened to that entire hour of ATMOS podcast and was intrigued about the atmos upscaling of existing Blu rays. However, I "thought" I heard that it could only upscale Dolby tracks, and some DTS lossless tracks could basically be negated back into a traditional 5.1 or 7.1 environment. Is there some information on this, or we waiting on people to get their hands on it still before something like that can be tested?
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post #685 of 11339 Old 09-07-2014, 02:43 AM
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^^
Just as you can use DD PLIIx or PLIIz on DD and DTS audio tracks today, so to shall you be able to use Dolby Surround on existing DD and DTS tracks on BDs as well.
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post #686 of 11339 Old 09-07-2014, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krozman View Post
Hey I'm late to this thread because I was set on purchasing the X3100W. I listened to that entire hour of ATMOS podcast and was intrigued about the atmos upscaling of existing Blu rays. However, I "thought" I heard that it could only upscale Dolby tracks, and some DTS lossless tracks could basically be negated back into a traditional 5.1 or 7.1 environment. Is there some information on this, or we waiting on people to get their hands on it still before something like that can be tested?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
Just as you can use DD PLIIx or PLIIz on DD and DTS audio tracks today, so to shall you be able to use Dolby Surround on existing DD and DTS tracks on BDs as well.
I suspect the confusion comes from the fact that Atmos (Dolby's new object oriented sound encoding) can only be present on new titles which ship with Dolby TrueHD audio (and not on all of them). The new Dolby Surround upmixer is separate from Atmos and, like its predecessor ProLogic upmixers, can be applied to almost any soundtrack. (It won't do anything for Dolby Atmos tracks because they already occupy all possible speaker channels.)

Eventually there might be discs with DTS-HD MA soundtracks which include their competing object-oriented DTS UHD, but there hasn't been any publicity about that.

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post #687 of 11339 Old 09-07-2014, 10:04 AM
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Right, I'm not expecting that the upmixer can suddenly make my Ironman movies ATMOS movies. But if I throw it into "PLII" mode, or more accurately if I watch the NFL games in that mode, ALL of the speakers are used.


Just trying to prevent putting a ton of new speakers in the room to never be used. If the upmixer is great then I'll benefit even when ATMOS is not intended. That, to me, allows me to consider spending the money on this AVR series. Thoughts?
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post #688 of 11339 Old 09-07-2014, 10:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krozman View Post
Right, I'm not expecting that the upmixer can suddenly make my Ironman movies ATMOS movies. But if I throw it into "PLII" mode, or more accurately if I watch the NFL games in that mode, ALL of the speakers are used.


Just trying to prevent putting a ton of new speakers in the room to never be used. If the upmixer is great then I'll benefit even when ATMOS is not intended. That, to me, allows me to consider spending the money on this AVR series. Thoughts?
Go for it. ...Or wait for the second generation of Dolby Atmos receivers (wise).
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post #689 of 11339 Old 09-07-2014, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krozman View Post
Right, I'm not expecting that the upmixer can suddenly make my Ironman movies ATMOS movies. But if I throw it into "PLII" mode, or more accurately if I watch the NFL games in that mode, ALL of the speakers are used.


Just trying to prevent putting a ton of new speakers in the room to never be used. If the upmixer is great then I'll benefit even when ATMOS is not intended. That, to me, allows me to consider spending the money on this AVR series. Thoughts?
You are right. In the early days and for the foreseeable, the upmixer will be getting most use. By all accounts it does a great job, fortunately.
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post #690 of 11339 Old 09-07-2014, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
^^
Just as you can use DD PLIIx or PLIIz on DD and DTS audio tracks today, so to shall you be able to use Dolby Surround on existing DD and DTS tracks on BDs as well.
Amen.

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