The "Official" 2014 Denon Atmos+XT32 Model Thread (X4100/X5200/X7200) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 4640 Old 07-30-2014, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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MacIntosh is a totally different ball game.

For the past several years the Marantz models have essentially been rebadged Denons with some additional circuitry in the analog and amp sections, see here: http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiv...-sr6008-sr7008

People have opened them up, and they are otherwise identical. All you have to do is compare the back panels of a comparable Denon and Marantz (eg X4000 vs SR7008) and it's obvious the internal architecture is basically the same.

Even the manuals and GUI are the same.

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post #92 of 4640 Old 07-30-2014, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rlhaudio View Post
I agree they are the same company but each uses their own internal components and design which makes them different. A Marantz receiver cannot be the same as a Denon receiver or even a McIntosh processor since Mac is also owned by the same company. Im not trying to start a war over who is better, I have owned all 3 brands and have my own preference but I have always wondered if the cases were opened and examined closer what percentage are the same parts used in each make? 30%, 60%, 90% because the prices for all 3 range from hundreds to $15,000 for the latest MX-152. But I wonder how many denon/Marantz parts are really inside that expensive Mac. Just thinking aloud.
D&M sold McIntosh back in 2012 to Fine Sounds in Italy. Also, in the past few years, the internals of Denon and Marantz models have become roughly 90%+ identical as noted by the many pictures posted in these threads over the past few years.

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post #93 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
They won't compete with Marantz because that's the same company.

And as Keith notes much of the heat isn't from the amps at all.
Forget the competition angle and D&M should think of it more from a sales angle. I wouldn't purchase the Marantz 8802 due to aesthetics and usability preferances, but I would purchase a Denon Pre/Pro version.

Since the AVR-X7200W and Marantz 8802 would be very similar, D&M should of also just released a Denon Pre version as well for what I assume would be little design investement to keep both customers of each Brand covered IMO.
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post #94 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 04:49 AM
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Forget the competition angle and D&M should think of it more from a sales angle. I wouldn't purchase the Marantz 8802 due to aesthetics and usability preferances, but I would purchase a Denon Pre/Pro version.

Since the AVR-X7200W and Marantz 8802 would be very similar, D&M should of also just released a Denon Pre version as well for what I assume would be little design investement to keep both customers of each Brand covered IMO.
Yep. The port-hole display of the Marantz models are hideous. Gimme a Denon any day.
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post #95 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 04:54 AM
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Sam S., if the poThole ;/) was less money, I bet you could learn to love it, LoL.
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post #96 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 06:53 AM
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flac playback is very interesting... do you guys know if it will support multichannel flac or just stereo only? i know that early AVRs taht do play flac don't support multichannel. so i always resort to HTPC regardless to play multichannel music over LPCM.

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post #97 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 08:20 AM
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Sam S., if the poThole ;/) was less money, I bet you could learn to love it, LoL.
True true!
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post #98 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 10:35 AM
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post #99 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 11:36 AM
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wow a lot changes when your out of the mix for a couple years. I have always loved my Denons. My old AVR is still running like brand new and its 10 years old. I did try an Onkyo which was crap. (the HDMI board failed) JUNK. I still have my 4311CI which is awesome. I was thinking of switching to Marantz just to see what all the gossip is about. I'll be waiting for Atmos receivers to be released before I go any further. 11. channels for me

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post #100 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sikclown View Post
No. The only Receiver manufacturer including HDCP 2.2 is Onkyo and only on one or two in ports and one out port. As has been discussed many times in the other forum, there are really only two chipsets available; one has full HDMI 2.0 (18Gbps)4k at 60hz and 4:4:4 chroma but no HDCP 2.2 while the other has HDMI 2.0 (10Gbps, same as 1.4) 4k at 60hz and 4:2:0 chroma with HDCP 2.2. Pioneer, Denon, Yamaha, etc opted for the former while Onkyo is the only manufacturer so far to opt for the latter.
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Good summary of the chip situation. You are correct and the idea that all HDMI 2.0 chipsets support 2.2 HDCP is incorrect.

The mfgs aren't gimping anything; they just made a decision which chip to use. So far, there is no HDMI 2.0 chipset that does it all. It's one with HDCP 2.2 & limited bandwidth or one with full bandwidth but HDCP 2.0.
UGH. I was REALLY hoping the x4100 would be a good upgrade for me. I don't upgrade receivers often, so I want something that supports Atmos and 4K (as fully as possible).

Atmos seems covered (-ish, assuming I upgrade my existing 7.2 system to 7.2.2 by adding two ceiling speakers?), but I'm worried about 4K. I know there aren't any sources that require HDCP 2.2 yet, but I'm sure they're in the pipeline, and I'd hate to have it hit the market in a year or two and not be able to connect it to my receiver because it isn't 2.2 compliant.

Which is more preferable, in general, the more full bandwidth (at the cost of HDCP 2.2) or HDCP 2.2 (at the cost of some bandwidth)? I'm reluctantly willing to consider switching to Onkyo (assuming the price is in the ballpark), but I'd rather stick with Denon (because Audyssey, among other reasons). I'm just not sure what the specific drawbacks of the "limited bandwidth" are.

Of course, I can wait (even if I hate it). A bigger issue is my friend who I am helping put together a system. He's going to need a receiver in the next couple of months. Not sure what to recommend, under the circumstances, since it seems like anything he gets is going to have issues, and since he has nothing now (worth speaking of), he can't very well just wait for a year or two.
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post #101 of 4640 Old 07-31-2014, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kalani View Post
UGH. I was REALLY hoping the x4100 would be a good upgrade for me. I don't upgrade receivers often, so I want something that supports Atmos and 4K (as fully as possible).

Atmos seems covered (-ish, assuming I upgrade my existing 7.2 system to 7.2.2 by adding two ceiling speakers?), but I'm worried about 4K. I know there aren't any sources that require HDCP 2.2 yet, but I'm sure they're in the pipeline, and I'd hate to have it hit the market in a year or two and not be able to connect it to my receiver because it isn't 2.2 compliant.

Which is more preferable, in general, the more full bandwidth (at the cost of HDCP 2.2) or HDCP 2.2 (at the cost of some bandwidth)? I'm reluctantly willing to consider switching to Onkyo (assuming the price is in the ballpark), but I'd rather stick with Denon (because Audyssey, among other reasons). I'm just not sure what the specific drawbacks of the "limited bandwidth" are.

Of course, I can wait (even if I hate it). A bigger issue is my friend who I am helping put together a system. He's going to need a receiver in the next couple of months. Not sure what to recommend, under the circumstances, since it seems like anything he gets is going to have issues, and since he has nothing now (worth speaking of), he can't very well just wait for a year or two.
Yup, this year you are forced to make a compromise. Next year or two will likely bring the best of both worlds but I am not sure the HDCP 2.2 limitations are really that big of a deal considering movie frame rate. I am going with Denon and no HDCP 2.2 since it hasn't even been chosen as the protection of choice. I own two Sammy 4k TVs with One Connect upgrade capabilities and any 4k player I buy would gave two HDMI outputs (or I am not buying it) to work around HDCP 2.2 with my receiver.
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post #102 of 4640 Old 08-02-2014, 02:26 PM
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I wonder if OPPO will come out with a HDCP 2.2 B.R. player that I can directly hook up to a 4K front projector. I guess the 4K projector will also have to have HDCP 2.2 to get the full res 4K picture. HDMI 2.0 is finally out and now HDCP 2.2 is needed to future proof for 4K. Since Onkyo has HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, why can't Denon/Marantz have it. Onkyo would have the whole market if they wouldn't have gotten rid of HDCP 2.2. What a mess.
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post #103 of 4640 Old 08-02-2014, 03:10 PM
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I wonder if OPPO will come out with a HDCP 2.2 B.R. player that I can directly hook up to a 4K front projector. I guess the 4K projector will also have to have HDCP 2.2 to get the full res 4K picture. HDMI 2.0 is finally out and now HDCP 2.2 is needed to future proof for 4K. Since Onkyo has HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, why can't Denon/Marantz have it. Onkyo would have the whole market if they wouldn't have gotten rid of HDCP 2.2. What a mess.
It is not clear yet that HDCP 2.2 will be the protection of choice. It is completely likely that it will be but current HDCP 2.2 chipsets limit the bandwidth from 18Gbps to 10Gbps (same as HDMI 1.4) as has been discussed all over the forums. Denon opted for full bandwidth vs limited bandwidth and a protection no one uses yet.

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post #104 of 4640 Old 08-02-2014, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ken7258 View Post
I wonder if OPPO will come out with a HDCP 2.2 B.R. player that I can directly hook up to a 4K front projector. I guess the 4K projector will also have to have HDCP 2.2 to get the full res 4K picture. HDMI 2.0 is finally out and now HDCP 2.2 is needed to future proof for 4K. Since Onkyo has HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2, why can't Denon/Marantz have it. Onkyo would have the whole market if they wouldn't have gotten rid of HDCP 2.2. What a mess.
Don't look for an HDCP 2.2/HDMI 2.0 BDP from Oppo until late 2015/early 2016.
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post #105 of 4640 Old 08-03-2014, 11:44 AM
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Chalk me up as very interested in the 7200. Id sell my amp and X4000 and just buy it if I did make the move.

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post #106 of 4640 Old 08-03-2014, 12:02 PM
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Since I have never had a "higher end" Denon. Can you explain why made in Japan calculates in (better build quality and amp section?)? 7200 may be a bit much for my needs, but I see the 5200 has made in japan and a different amp design vs the 4300.

Thanks.

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post #107 of 4640 Old 08-03-2014, 12:21 PM
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post #108 of 4640 Old 08-03-2014, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Since I have never had a "higher end" Denon. Can you explain why made in Japan calculates in (better build quality and amp section?)? 7200 may be a bit much for my needs, but I see the 5200 has made in japan and a different amp design vs the 4300.

Thanks.
Denon receivers made in China are actually subcontracted out and made by Inkel/Sherwood.

http://english.etnews.com/device/2393401_1304.html
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post #109 of 4640 Old 08-03-2014, 12:36 PM
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Neat, thanks. Did not know that.

I know, after reading several 4520 posts before I bought my amp, that people tend to respect the build quality of the Made in Japan units. Usually a pretty good price difference too.

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post #110 of 4640 Old 08-08-2014, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Since I have never had a "higher end" Denon. Can you explain why made in Japan calculates in (better build quality and amp section?)?

Supposedly the Japanese take more pride in their work than the Chinese. But things coming out of Japan run the risk of being radioactive. So you have to weigh what's more important. Having a working receiver or losing your hair and teeth.
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post #111 of 4640 Old 08-08-2014, 09:57 AM
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i'm going to wait til 2017 or 2020's AVR that will include 3D microphone next 1 or 2 generation of audssey that will measure what your room will physically sound like and place your speakers as objects for the object-oriented surroun sound formats for amtos&MDA for the home.

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post #112 of 4640 Old 08-08-2014, 11:47 AM
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Why wait? Get a Trinnov Altitude this fall. It's only 5-10x as expensive
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post #113 of 4640 Old 08-08-2014, 05:55 PM
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I have a few questions from another thread. Was directed here by what I assume is a moderator...with 43K posts I'd hope he is

Can anyone state what kinda DAC will be present in the 4100? I use a external DAC solution on my older Onkyo and was just wondering if there is any information. We all know a good and an amazing DAC makes the difference between this sounds amazing to this sounds mind-blowing.

Is the Phono amp good? I am not doing anything amazing. Just a technics turntable with the ortofon red cart.

How is the video processing on these? I am looking for something to work well with my older game systems, PS1/N64/PS2/SNES, as an alternative to using a PC for the task. So how do they handle 240/480 content? Would it be wise to buy a dedicated upscaling solution instead?

Next and finally can we control which speakers get the audyssey experience. I am starting out with 5.1. 2.1 is being controlled actively by a dedicated DSP. I do not want the Denon processing anything but general time alignment.

Anyone have any information would be greatly appreciated.
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post #114 of 4640 Old 08-08-2014, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Michael_92 View Post
We all know a good and an amazing DAC makes the difference between this sounds amazing to this sounds mind-blowing.
No we don't


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Originally Posted by Michael_92 View Post
How is the video processing on these? I am looking for something to work well with my older game systems, PS1/N64/PS2/SNES, as an alternative to using a PC for the task. So how do they handle 240/480 content? Would it be wise to buy a dedicated upscaling solution instead?
Recent model units have gotten excellent marks on video processing. Obviously these units haven't been released yet but you can find reviews of models with the 4k chipsets like this one of the 4520CI: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench

Don't expect miracles with SD sources.


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Next and finally can we control which speakers get the audyssey experience. I am starting out with 5.1. 2.1 is being controlled actively by a dedicated DSP. I do not want the Denon processing anything but general time alignment.
It doesn't work like. Audyssey is a fully integrated room EQ that EQ's the full frequency range of all speakers. If you don't want to use Audyssey, don't use it. You can't pick and choose which channels it operates on EXCEPT for the option of using the Front Bypass mode, which will bypass EQ on the front L/R mains but EQ everything else including the subwoofer. But you want it to EQ the subwoofer, because it's awesome at doing it.

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post #115 of 4640 Old 08-08-2014, 07:57 PM
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I was impressed with the SD up-conversion on my parents 3313CI. It really made older things look nice. Granted they have a nice TV (mines...not quite as nice..okay its trash). The receiver however is processing the signal awesomely. One thing stuck out to me in that link.

Blah that is no good about the Audyssey. Now I have to make a choice of using it or not. I was REALLY hoping it would allow me to use my MiniDSPs for the main 5.1 and bypass Audyssey then use it for the other channels I don't really care about. I have done room calibration and while Audyssey is very good I was able to dial it in much better myself, especially in the sub frequencies where I have terrible ringing down low. I'll just mess with it when the time comes, I love screwing with settings and that.

Okay now to what I said above. It said something about RGB source. Is Denon able to take in a RGB instead of YCbCr? If so then its sold and mine.
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post #116 of 4640 Old 08-11-2014, 10:49 AM
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Audioholics is offering a "preview" (teaser) about Denon's X4100W and X5200W:

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiv...0w-av-receiver

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post #117 of 4640 Old 08-11-2014, 11:05 AM
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FWIW, Marantz AVRs, which otherwise are almost identical to Denon's, include the option to not EQ the front speakers.

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post #118 of 4640 Old 08-11-2014, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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FWIW, Marantz AVRs, which otherwise are almost identical to Denon's, include the option to not EQ the front speakers.
Selden, I'm confused. Both Denons and Marantz's have the "Bypass L/R" option for EQ setting.

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post #119 of 4640 Old 08-11-2014, 12:29 PM
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Selden, I'm confused. Both Denons and Marantz's have the "Bypass L/R" option for EQ setting.
Sorry, I think I'm the one who is confused. I thought the complaint was from someone who didn't like Denon's Audyssey because it mucked with the sound of his front speakers. Maybe it was some older Denon's that didn't have this feature?

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post #120 of 4640 Old 08-11-2014, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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No, they've had it forever. The complaint is more that you can't select which speakers Audyssey will EQ vs having it EQ all of them. In his posts above he specifically wants to turn it off for BOTH the fronts and the subwoofer channel too. I suggested the Front Bypass option but that only bypasses the mains, not the sub EQ.


"Blah that is no good about the Audyssey. Now I have to make a choice of using it or not. I was REALLY hoping it would allow me to use my MiniDSPs for the main 5.1 and bypass Audyssey then use it for the other channels I don't really care about. I have done room calibration and while Audyssey is very good I was able to dial it in much better myself, especially in the sub frequencies where I have terrible ringing down low. I'll just mess with it when the time comes, I love screwing with settings and that. "

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