The "Official" 2014 Denon Atmos+XT32 Model Thread (X4100/X5200/X7200) - Page 7 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by esappy View Post
Here is a crappy photo of the work in progress. Try not to laugh too much, there is more wrong with the room than there is right at this time.
Laugh? I'm green with envy at that enormous space for a home theater. All I have to work with is a smallish living room and overarching WAF concerns. You're a lucky fellow indeed.
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post #182 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
I do speak (and read) some Japanese, but it wouldn't do you much good on that site since the language in question is Chinese, not Japanese.

To use an analogy, it would be like confusing a Blu-ray player with an AVR; there are some similarities in components and application but they serve two separate purposes. I would love to go into more detail if it weren't mind-blowingly OT.

Sorry, but as a linguist such distinctions matter to me.
Damn, I made an assumption and was wrong. I certainly didn't mean to offend if I did.

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post #183 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Flash3d View Post
Just expanded my 5.1 with 2 front height and 2 wide speakers. Seems that the heights can be used in an Atmos setup. The wides I have to move somewhere to the ceiling.
Note that technically wides are still supported in an Atmos setup. You could for example to a 9.x.2 setup with 7 channels + wides + one pair of in-ceiling top speakers. Although it appears that the new Dolby Surround upmixing does NOT mix to wides, so they would only be "hot" if you had a native Atmos soundtrack or used one of the legacy upmixers like DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX.

Future processors will presumably allow for 13 channels at some point (for a 9.x.4 setup or 7.x.6).

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post #184 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Laugh? I'm green with envy at that enormous space for a home theater. All I have to work with is a smallish living room and overarching WAF concerns. You're a lucky fellow indeed.
Thanks for that. When we bought the house I will admit that I immediately saw home theater when I walked into this room. But after the illusion wore off and we started looking at the finer details of the space, we have realized how poorly this space was constructed and it is going to cost several pretty pennies to redo this space right. But we are just about ready to be able to start the whole process so my enthusiasm has picked up a lot recently. But like a lot of others here, I am trying to gather as much info as I can about Atmos before deciding final layout. The other 'issue' I have is that with a space this large, I don't really want to make it all just a dedicated theater and would like to have a rec room also. So many options. This is a terrible 'issue' to have

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post #185 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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esappy - You are definitely lucky to have that much flexibility in really custom designing a purpose built space for your HT. I don't know how dedicated you are to going full bore for the future but, and I'm not sure how large the space is overall, but if I were building from scratch and running wires I'd want as much flexibility for future expansion as possible. For example, before finishing the ceiling I'd probably run wires for SIX total in-ceiling Atmos speakers (front, middle and rear) because it's almost certain that this will be supported at some point in the future. Probably overkill in a smaller space with only one row of seating but if it's a longer "theater" with multiple rows I think having that flexibility would be cool.
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post #186 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
esappy - You are definitely lucky to have that much flexibility in really custom designing a purpose built space for your HT. I don't know how dedicated you are to going full bore for the future but, and I'm not sure how large the space is overall, but if I were building from scratch and running wires I'd want as much flexibility for future expansion as possible. For example, before finishing the ceiling I'd probably run wires for SIX total in-ceiling Atmos speakers (front, middle and rear) because it's almost certain that this will be supported at some point in the future. Probably overkill in a smaller space with only one row of seating but if it's a longer "theater" with multiple rows I think having that flexibility would be cool.
Thank you for the suggestions. This is something I have certainly been contemplating lately and will most likely do since it is so easy right now. When other people say what you have been thinking, it really helps in making decisions easier. The space itself is approximately 40' long by 23' wide by 12' high. But I have a massive wood beam that runs the 23' span right in the middle of the room. So the room is kinda divided into two 20' sections. I don't think this would work too well for in-ceiling speakers for Atmos due to unwanted reflections so I think I may make the ceiling height 10' instead and then I can use the 2' void space to sound proof the hell out of the basement to the main floor above. Plus I could maybe make a hideaway space for the projector. We will see how it goes. All it takes is money!

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post #187 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Note that technically wides are still supported in an Atmos setup. You could for example to a 9.x.2 setup with 7 channels + wides + one pair of in-ceiling top speakers. Although it appears that the new Dolby Surround upmixing does NOT mix to wides, so they would only be "hot" if you had a native Atmos soundtrack or used one of the legacy upmixers like DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX.

Future processors will presumably allow for 13 channels at some point (for a 9.x.4 setup or 7.x.6).
You mean the wides will also have a discrete atmos channel? Cause I didn't see that option in the just posted setup video.
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post #188 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Flash3d View Post
You mean the wides will also have a discrete atmos channel? Cause I didn't see that option in the just posted setup video.
Just to be clear, Atmos doesn't have "discrete channels" per se. It's object based rendering, and the full Atmos for home spec delineates 24 potential speaker locations within 15-degree slices (360/24 = 15). So if you had a pair of speakers in between the front L/R and the surround L/R, a sound that pans horizontally around you could render through all those speakers. Obviously the current maintstream AVR's don't support all 34 potential speaker locations (24 ear height + 10 elevated) but according to the X5200 manual the "Front Wide" position IS supported when using Atmos surround mode, so presumably it would render as though it were the

There are also the "bed channels" which create the ambient/stationary soundtrack, and those correspond to the standard 7ch layout (L,C,R,Sr,Sl,SBl,SBr).

So my assumption is that if you have Front Wide enabled as one of the calibrated speaker positions (e.g. a 9.1.2 layout) then the Front Wide channels will NOT receive any of the "bed" information but WILL be used for rendering objects.
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post #189 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Note that technically wides are still supported in an Atmos setup. You could for example to a 9.x.2 setup with 7 channels + wides + one pair of in-ceiling top speakers. Although it appears that the new Dolby Surround upmixing does NOT mix to wides, so they would only be "hot" if you had a native Atmos soundtrack or used one of the legacy upmixers like DTS Neo:X or Audyssey DSX.

Future processors will presumably allow for 13 channels at some point (for a 9.x.4 setup or 7.x.6).
Speaking of "lucky 13," I know that the X5200 (and X4100 for that matter) will allow connection of up to 13 speakers (plus SW's) in the main zone while limiting playback to 11CH (and 9CH, respectively) at any one time. Where I become confused is in trying to ascertain how/whether I can feasibly connect all 11 main speakers (FL/C/FR/SLR/SBLR/FHLR/FWLR) plus a pair of Atmos-type rears (e.g., RH)--in addition to a Zone 2 pre-out connection. I understand that this arrangement would require at least two external amp pre-out connections, but assuming it is feasible which one would come from the main zone? Looking at the (European) X5200 manual, I can't seem to figure out how this would be achieved unless perhaps by leaving the "FRONT WIDE/HEIGHT 2" setting at the default of "FRONT WIDE" and connecting the RH speakers to the "HEIGHT 2" pre-out. This presumes the AVR would know to employ the RH via pre-out vice "HEIGHT 2" speaker connections whenever an Atmos source is played.

Batpig, can you assist?
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post #190 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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We'll have to see how it plays out in practice, but based on the X5200 manual (specifically pp 208-210) I think that it's definitely possible. You have a setting (pg 209) which controls what signal the Wide/Height2 speaker terminal puts out (either Front Wide or Top Rear) and then a "Pre-Out" setting (pg 210) which controls which speakers beyond the first 9 are used with pre-outs.

So, for example, you could set the "Wide/Height2" setting to Front Wide, which designes the INTERNAL amps to Front Wide L/R, and then set the "Pre-out" setting to Top Front & Top Rear, which designates those four channels as being powered by external amps. Then the internal amps power Fronts, Center, Surround, Surround Back and Front Wide, and external amps (connected to the appropriate pre-outs) power the four height speakers.

That said, I'm not sure what Zone 2 pre-out has to do with anything. Everything we are talking about is Main Zone, and there are 13.2 pre-outs for Main Zone, so why are the Zone pre-outs relevant?

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post #191 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
We'll have to see how it plays out in practice, but based on the X5200 manual (specifically pp 208-210) I think that it's definitely possible. You have a setting (pg 209) which controls what signal the Wide/Height2 speaker terminal puts out (either Front Wide or Top Rear) and then a "Pre-Out" setting (pg 210) which controls which speakers beyond the first 9 are used with pre-outs.

So, for example, you could set the "Wide/Height2" setting to Front Wide, which designes the INTERNAL amps to Front Wide L/R, and then set the "Pre-out" setting to Top Front & Top Rear, which designates those four channels as being powered by external amps. Then the internal amps power Fronts, Center, Surround, Surround Back and Front Wide, and external amps (connected to the appropriate pre-outs) power the four height speakers.
OK, that much I understand. But since we are limited to 11CH in the main zone and there are already nine internal amps in the X5200, is there not some way to make the connections such that only one external stereo amp is required? IOW, either I'll be running a max Neo:X 11.1 or Atmos 7.1.4/9.1.2, all of which add up to 11CH of amplification at any one time.

Every time I try to map out the various configurations in my mind I seem to get something muddled up. It helps to have someone more knowledgeable than I lay out the particulars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That said, I'm not sure what Zone 2 pre-out has to do with anything. Everything we are talking about is Main Zone, and there are 13.2 pre-outs for Main Zone, so why are the Zone pre-outs relevant?
No relevancy to what's going on in the main zone; I just wanted to be thorough in explaining my anticipated set-up and amplification requirements.
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post #192 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
OK, that much I understand. But since we are limited to 11CH in the main zone and there are already nine internal amps in the X5200, is there not some way to make the connections such that only one external stereo amp is required? IOW, either I'll be running a max Neo:X 11.1 or Atmos 7.1.4/9.1.2, all of which add up to 11CH of amplification at any one time.
I'm not sure honestly. So an example of what you are asking for would be this (right?):

- Set AMP ASSIGN to 11.1ch
- Set Height Speakers to "4 Height Speakers"
- Set "Wide/Height2" speaker terminal output to "Top Rear" -- the second (rear) pair of elevated speakers connects to "Front Wide/Height2" speaker terminals
- Correspondingly, set Pre-out setting to "Front Wide" and hook up the FW L/R speakers to the pre-outs

So you'd have 11 speakers connected to the speaker terminals (7ch + 4 height speakers) and the Front Wide powered by external amp via pre-outs. All 13 speakers connected, and PRESUMABLY the receiver could switch between providing a signal to Front Wide or Height2 based on the surround mode.

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post #193 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I'm not sure honestly. So an example of what you are asking for would be this (right?):

- Set AMP ASSIGN to 11.1ch
- Set Height Speakers to "4 Height Speakers"
- Set "Wide/Height2" speaker terminal output to "Top Rear" -- the second (rear) pair of elevated speakers connects to "Front Wide/Height2" speaker terminals
- Correspondingly, set Pre-out setting to "Front Wide" and hook up the FW L/R speakers to the pre-outs

So you'd have 11 speakers connected to the speaker terminals (7ch + 4 height speakers) and the Front Wide powered by external amp via pre-outs. All 13 speakers connected, and PRESUMABLY the receiver could switch between providing a signal to Front Wide or Height2 based on the surround mode.
Yes, that would be one way to configure it, but would it work as we are presuming? Are you are as unclear on this as I am?

N.B.: The below diagram from p. 52 of the manual is contributing to my lack of clarity on this issue. (Note that the FW/H2 connections are greyed out.)

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post #194 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I would say I'm unclear, yes, at least in the sense of the specifics of "edge cases" like wanting to hook up all 13 possible speakers and switching between them depending on the surround mode.

I wouldn't treat diagrams like that one from pg 52 as absolutes. That just shows a "default" type layout with the basic settings (11.1ch mode, 4 height speakers, and the Top rear set to pre-out). It isn't exclusive necessarily of other hookup options.

That said, I did just notice this clause I had seen before on pg 210.... the bolded part at the end does seem to imply that 4 channels of external amplification would be needed for the 13 speaker scenario:

When one set of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back. Furthermore,
when two sets of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Audyssey DSX® or Neo:X are played back in addition to when
Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back.

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post #195 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 06:32 PM
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will last years models (i have the x4000) be updated to use atmos?
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post #196 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 2pacalypsenow View Post
will last years models (i have the x4000) be updated to use atmos?
Almost certainly not. I'm pretty sure they had to add more processors to handle Atmos. It's far too much of an upgrade to handle just via firmware. Plus something like this is a way to push new product.
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post #197 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 07:02 PM
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I would say I'm unclear, yes, at least in the sense of the specifics of "edge cases" like wanting to hook up all 13 possible speakers and switching between them depending on the surround mode.

I wouldn't treat diagrams like that one from pg 52 as absolutes. That just shows a "default" type layout with the basic settings (11.1ch mode, 4 height speakers, and the Top rear set to pre-out). It isn't exclusive necessarily of other hookup options.

That said, I did just notice this clause I had seen before on pg 210.... the bolded part at the end does seem to imply that 4 channels of external amplification would be needed for the 13 speaker scenario:

When one set of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back. Furthermore,
when two sets of pre-amp outputs are used, a maximum 11.1-channel audio can
be output when Audyssey DSX® or Neo:X are played back in addition to when
Dolby Atmos or Dolby Surround are played back.
Thanks for that analysis; it isn't what I wanted to hear but sounds plausible. I was hoping to accomplish the 11CH dual Atmos/Neo:X modes using just one external stereo amp (in addition to the amp for my Zone 2), but perhaps there's more flexibility here than first meets the eye. It's also puzzling that that clause you pointed out seems only applicable to the one scenario it is appended to (When “Height Speakers” is set to “4 Height Speakers” and “Wide/Height2” is set to “Front Wide”). I don't see a similar note anywhere else in the manual, but perhaps that's a printing or formatting error. (E.g., why would it not apply to the immediately succeeding scenario (When “Height Speakers” is set to “4 Height Speakers” and “Wide/Height2” is set other than to “Front Wide”)?)

Although this is an area of concern for me, as you say it is an "edge case" and will perhaps be answered once the AVR has hit the field. I also like to keep in mind that the manual we're referring to (unless you have access to the U.S. version) applies to the European model and, although this operational aspect seems pretty intrinsic, some details could differ on the U.S. model.

At any rate, as always I appreciate your taking the time to provide feedback.
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post #198 of 7583 Old 08-18-2014, 07:02 PM
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:-/
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post #199 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 12:16 AM
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^^chi_guy50,

From the 1st page of this thread the X4100 can process a maximum of 9 channels in Atmos - even adding more external amps would not help to achieve the following speaker configurations.
[*] 7.1.4 (default recommend by Dolby)
[*] 9.1.2 (using wides in DSX or Neo:X)

That means the for the X4100 owner he/she is limited to the Atmos speaker configuration of 5.1.4 (default recommend by Dolby) or 7.1.2 (with top middle).

For those who have an existing 5.1 speaker setup and would like to experiment with Dolby Atmos, going to the X4100 makes a lot of sense.

People who have a 7.1 setup and would like to have more flexibility in speaker arrangements means stepping up to the next higher model (X5200) or the highest end X7200.

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post #200 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 02:24 AM
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will last years models (i have the x4000) be updated to use atmos?
No. The Atmos models require 4 DSPs while the X4000 only has 2. AFAIK, only the 2014 models will be using Atmos.

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post #201 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 04:27 AM
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Anyone able to shed any light on this:

In the UK, the Denon X4100 is available for £1,299. It has 7 channels of amplification.

However the Denon X5200, which has 9 channels of amplification costs £1,699.

But the Marantz SR 7009, which has 9 channels of amplification, costs only £1,399 - just £100 more than the Denon X4100W. On the face of it, this makes the Marantz a much better buy.

What am I missing? Thanks.

Specs here:

Denon X5200

Denon X4100

Marantz SR 7009
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post #202 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 04:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esappy View Post
The space itself is approximately 40' long by 23' wide by 12' high. But I have a massive wood beam that runs the 23' span right in the middle of the room. So the room is kinda divided into two 20' sections. I don't think this would work too well for in-ceiling speakers for Atmos due to unwanted reflections so I think I may make the ceiling height 10' instead and then I can use the 2' void space to sound proof the hell out of the basement to the main floor above. Plus I could maybe make a hideaway space for the projector. We will see how it goes. All it takes is money!
Simply superb space!
A few suggestions:

1/ take your time to plan it very thourough.
2/ create a box-in-box with double drywall with GreenGlue in between for maximum sound insulation
3/ think about installing the box-in-box on top of a floating concrete floor. costly though.
4/ do not, repeat: do not lower a double drywall ceiling to 10'. instead embed the 23' beam (but without the drywall touching it)
5/ instead make 1' thickness absorption elements and hang them from the new ceiling, flush with the 10' high beam, or lower (plenum height never more than the element thickness). you can do this for the whole surface, or create a large acoustic island above the listening area: maybe half the width of the space (11,5' then) and the ceiling speakers right next to the island. This will be an excellent broadband absorber. do not confuse this with the sound insulation from points 2,3 and 4.
6/ take more time to plan it thourough, read how sound insulation works. Simply treating the ceiling to protect the space above it is useless as a stand-alone measure.

Succes!
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post #203 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Anyone able to shed any light on this:

In the UK, the Denon X4100 is available for £1,299. It has 7 channels of amplification.

However the Denon X5200, which has 9 channels of amplification costs £1,699.

But the Marantz SR 7009, which has 9 channels of amplification, costs only £1,399 - just £100 more than the Denon X4100W. On the face of it, this makes the Marantz a much better buy.

What am I missing? Thanks.

Specs here:

Denon X5200

Denon X4100

Marantz SR 7009
Either a typo or unauthorized dealer most likely as US MSRP remains unchanged from last year's SR7008 of $1999 USD.

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post #204 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 06:15 AM
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On a more mundane note regarding the 5200W, did anyone notice the speaker posts look different in the UK manual than some of the early pictures floating around? They also don't mention using banana plugs per se. They talk about bare wire or terminating the ends (p. 36). I assume they meant banana plugs in the termination reference, but it's vague IMO.

I see dead pixels.......

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post #205 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 06:38 AM
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I believe that banana plugs aren't allowed in the UK. They're too similar to electrical plugs. Not that that stops people from using them when they can.
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post #206 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 06:41 AM
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I will be buying a 5200 as soon as I can and moving to 7.1.4
Subscribing.

Help me JD and Batpig, you're my only hopes!
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Buncha savages in this town....

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post #207 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 06:43 AM
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HAH! Too funny.
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post #208 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Either a typo or unauthorized dealer most likely as US MSRP remains unchanged from last year's SR7008 of $1999 USD.
They’re definitely an authorised D&M dealer. Maybe a typo then - I'll ask to be absolutely sure. Thanks JD.
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post #209 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post
I believe that banana plugs aren't allowed in the UK. They're too similar to electrical plugs. Not that that stops people from using them when they can.
The 3 UK Denons I have had both came with small plastic bits filling the speaker post where you would insert the banana plugs into. It was a work on minutes to remove these with a small screw driver and insert the plugs.


I'd hope/expect the new UK models to be the same, but this would need confirmation.
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post #210 of 7583 Old 08-19-2014, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriilin View Post
On a more mundane note regarding the 5200W, did anyone notice the speaker posts look different in the UK manual than some of the early pictures floating around? They also don't mention using banana plugs per se. They talk about bare wire or terminating the ends (p. 36). I assume they meant banana plugs in the termination reference, but it's vague IMO.
Banana plugs are illegal in Europe believe it or not. They cap the ends of the speaker plugs and we have to prise the caps out so we can use our (illegal) banana plugs.
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