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post #31 of 83 Old 08-13-2014, 01:54 PM
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I just picked up the NR636 @ Best Buy to do an experiment. So far, I am not happy with the Atmos calibration. Ran it twice and the subwoofer sounds just horrible... muffled and barely heard. Rest of the speakers sound ok.

I was trying to find a local store that carries the Denon, so I could do a head to head, but can't find one.

Looks like Best Buy has the AVR-X2100W, which looks very similar. Do you think it's comparable enough for a test?
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post #32 of 83 Old 08-13-2014, 03:02 PM
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You're not going to notice 130w vs 95w because you were most likely using less than 25w in the first place.

Going from 90 to 135 is less than 2db difference anyway.

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post #33 of 83 Old 08-13-2014, 09:13 PM
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I just recommended the xr2100 for one of my client's jobs. The biggest difference that offered over the new S900 was the ability to re-route the 7.1 channels to a second zone. I believe all of the new Denon and Marantz models are so currently the only players to be truly 4k compliant as well.
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post #34 of 83 Old 08-13-2014, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mulox View Post
I just picked up the NR636 @ Best Buy to do an experiment. So far, I am not happy with the Atmos calibration. Ran it twice and the subwoofer sounds just horrible... muffled and barely heard. Rest of the speakers sound ok.

I was trying to find a local store that carries the Denon, so I could do a head to head, but can't find one.

Looks like Best Buy has the AVR-X2100W, which looks very similar. Do you think it's comparable enough for a test?
I'm pretty confident the x2000 and x2100W will sound the same.

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post #35 of 83 Old 08-13-2014, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by commsysman View Post
ALL cheap receivers have to have poor sound quality and very limited ability to drive most real speakers without excessive distortion.

At that kind of low price level, there is just not enough money to put in a beefy power supply that can drive speakers adequately and keep distortion low.

For $599, you can get a NAD T748 receiver, which has more BEEF and lower distortion than almost anything else for a comparable price. Its list of "bells and whistles" is shorter than many others, because they put in more BEEF and not so much glitter. You have to choose; BEEF or Gee Whiz.

Keep in mind that the endless meaningless power specs DO NOT tell you how much distortion will occur when a REAL SPEAKER is being driven. They are generated with a load resistor; not a speaker. This makes those specs useless. They have no relation to actual performance.

The distortion can be 100 times as great when a speaker is being driven.
I have one of these (actually a T-747), traded a Pioneer VSX-1121 for it after three months. While the Pioneer had many more features, including wifi and AirPlay built in, the output is much cleaner and richer from the NAD (and it's way easier to configure). However, these receivers list at over $1,100 with rare discounting, and I'm not clear how you could get one for under $600. Best of luck in your decision-making.

<EDIT> Oops, I read in a later post that the T-748 is extra-cheap at Spearit Sound. That's a real deal for anyone on the fence. While Denon, H/K, Yamaha, etc are at the top of the consumer end of hi-fi, NAD components are at the most affordable end for real audiophile high-end gear, and the difference is noticeable for anyone with a good ear.

Last edited by grtgrfx; 08-13-2014 at 11:48 PM. Reason: Noticed an answer in later post.
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post #36 of 83 Old 08-13-2014, 11:49 PM
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While the Pioneer had many more features, including wifi and AirPlay built in, the output is much cleaner and richer from the NAD (and it's way easier to configure). However, these receivers list at over $1,100 with rare discounting, and I'm not clear how you could get one for under $600. Best of luck in your decision-making.
The T748 is currently going for $599 or less. A quick Google search will find that info for you...
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_745T748...V2.html?tp=179

http://www.spearitsound.com/Surround...-NAD_T748.html

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post #37 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mulox View Post
I just picked up the NR636 @ Best Buy to do an experiment. So far, I am not happy with the Atmos calibration. Ran it twice and the subwoofer sounds just horrible... muffled and barely heard. Rest of the speakers sound ok.

I was trying to find a local store that carries the Denon, so I could do a head to head, but can't find one.

Looks like Best Buy has the AVR-X2100W, which looks very similar. Do you think it's comparable enough for a test?
That would be Onkyo's new AccuEQ of which there is no EQ of the FL/FR speakers nor the subwoofer. The X2100W should sound much better after running the Audyssey MultEQ XT.

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post #38 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mn_hokie View Post
I just recommended the xr2100 for one of my client's jobs. The biggest difference that offered over the new S900 was the ability to re-route the 7.1 channels to a second zone. I believe all of the new Denon and Marantz models are so currently the only players to be truly 4k compliant as well.
There is no re-routing of 7.1 channels to a second zone, rather the X2100W has Zone 2 pre-outs which can take a stereo 2.0 signal and pass it to Zone 2. Also, AFAIK, all 2014 models regardless of brand are 4k compliant with all but Onkyo being able to either pass or upscale full 18gb HDMI 2.0 video.

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post #39 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 01:17 AM
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My brother just picked up the Onkyo 636. I myself have a 5-year-old Onkyo 606.

He has the 636 hooked up to a Morel Primo 5.1 set. He ran the AccuEQ Room Calibration.
So far I'm not too impressed with his setup, but I'm not sure if it's the speakers or the receiver to blame.

Spec-wise, it seems the Denon X2100 is on par with the Onkyo 636. Haven't had a chance to test the Denon, so no idea how it would compare.

I have my 5-year-old Onkyo 606 hooked up to a 5.1 set with large front speakers rated at 250W each.
I had it room-calibrated once with the Audyssey MultEQ, and it's been sounding pretty good since.

As someone here already stated: What's more important to you - true power or more bells & whistles?
The Onkyo 636 has 4K support and upscaling, BT & WiFi, LAN, etc.
But Actual power handling? ...not sure, since I can't directly compare with receivers at the same room at the same time.
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post #40 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 01:26 AM
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I have my 5-year-old Onkyo 606 hooked up to a 5.1 set with large front speakers rated at 250W each.
I had it room-calibrated once with the Audyssey MultEQ, and it's been sounding pretty good since.
your Onkyo 606 only has Audyssey 2EQ not Mult EQ. No EQing of the subwoofer.

http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/flavors

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post #41 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 01:34 AM
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afrogt,

OK. I guess it's only Audyssey 2EQ. I forgot since I've had it for so long.
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post #42 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 01:56 AM
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BTW, I've just read the datasheet of the Onkyo 636.
It seems that Onkyo's propiatery AccuEQ is very limited.
It is only capable of calibrating a single listening position, and even though all attached speakers are supposedly "calibrated", it basically calibrates the front speakers.
The LFE channel (subwoofer) is probably not calibrated.

Quote from the datasheet:
"AccuEQ optimizes surround-sound and two-channel audio
to suit your listening space. In particular, AccuEQ extracts
the best possible performance from your front speakers
to make stereo listening more dynamic and exciting. The
system analyzes speaker setup and room acoustics from one
listening position
(which simplifies the calibration process)
and optimizes frequency response and output levels for
maximum clarity."

Quote from the manual:
"The subwoofer sound may not be detected since it is extremely low
frequencies. Raise the subwoofer volume to around the half of its
maximum volume and make its frequency to the maximum level."

All in all, it seems this AccuEQ is roughly on the same level of Audyssey 2EQ, which is just the basic level.
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post #43 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 07:49 AM
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^^
Except that unlike 2EQ which can actually EQ the FL/FR speakers, there is no EQ of the FL/FR speakers using AccuEQ.

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post #44 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mulox View Post
Thank you, that really helps a lot. I don't care about any of those features... bluetooth is a nice to have. My only requirements are:

7 channels
Audyssey
Decent power/channel (I had 130W/channel on my old Onkyo)
Subwoofer preout
Wired ethernet for firmware updates and streaming
4k support is nice to have, in case I decide to upgrade my projector some day...

So my only concern with the Denon is that I am taking a big step down in wattage.

I just noticed Crutchfield has an Onkyo TX-NR818 scratch/dent for $594 shipped. It does have Audyssey and more power than the Denon (135/channel @ 8 ohms), but just not sure that's worth $200 more, plus the unpredictable reliability is now a concern.

On a side note and off topic, the repair shop told me that the HDMI board on my old Onkyo costs $300, and they wanted another $150 labor. I am fairly handy with repairing stuff, but never tried anything like this. Anyone every tried DIY and have any tips/thoughts?
I had an Onkyo TX-SR606 with the well documented HDMI board failure. After watching a few repair videos on YouTube, I decided to order the parts and try repairing it myself. The parts, including solder and iron, cost $33. It was relatively easy.

Bear in mind I don't know how to solder, and the parts are as big as an eraser head.

One video in particular does an excellent job of detailing the work.

On a handyman scale of ten, I'm about a 3. BTW, the receiver is still working a year later.
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post #45 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 10:44 AM
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^^
If there is no separate thread that has been created on this DIY repair, you may want to consider creating one to help other owners as well.
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post #46 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mulox View Post
I just picked up the NR636 @ Best Buy to do an experiment. So far, I am not happy with the Atmos calibration. Ran it twice and the subwoofer sounds just horrible... muffled and barely heard. Rest of the speakers sound ok.

I was trying to find a local store that carries the Denon, so I could do a head to head, but can't find one.

Looks like Best Buy has the AVR-X2100W, which looks very similar. Do you think it's comparable enough for a test?
I would go NAD if you can possibly stretch your budget. Have had Denon and NAD (currently a NAD T775 HD, upgraded from a NAD T762) and NAD is truly all about music, but still plenty of lpunch in home theatre use. A NAD for $599 is better value than any of the others even at $399
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post #47 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
There is no re-routing of 7.1 channels to a second zone, rather the X2100W has Zone 2 pre-outs which can take a stereo 2.0 signal and pass it to Zone 2. Also, AFAIK, all 2014 models regardless of brand are 4k compliant with all but Onkyo being able to either pass or upscale full 18gb HDMI 2.0 video.
That's actually incorrect. You can assign the back two channels to Zone 2 through the setup. The actual pre-out jacks are for direct connect to an external amp. That is the only way to have 7.1 in the main area and a zone 2 output at the same time.
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post #48 of 83 Old 08-14-2014, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by discopaul View Post
I recommend Harman Kardon. They have several models that should easily fit your needs.
I have an Onkyo THX reciever, that needs a fan on it at all times. I knew this before buying it, but I was dead set on getting the THX HTIB. I later needed a 2 channel setup for my computer room, and decided the best bang for the buck was a 5.1 Harman Kardon for $259. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Runs cool and I love it!
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post #49 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 04:10 AM
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Accessories4Less has the Marantz SR5006 ($399), SR5007 ($449), and SR5008 ($499) ... all refurbished.

These receivers not only have Audyssey XT, but they also have (unbalanced) pre-outs for an amplifier.

I bought mine this way ... My initial purchase was an SR5006 ... one surround channel didn't work, so I returned it ... they were out of stock on the model, so they sent me an SR5007 instead. A year and a half later, so far so good.

Click image for larger version

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MartinLogan Motion 40s / 30 / LX16s
Marantz SR5007 / UD5007
Emotiva XPA-3
SVS PC13ultra

exercise room: MartinLogan LX16s / Dynamo700
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post #50 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by mn_hokie View Post
That's actually incorrect. You can assign the back two channels to Zone 2 through the setup. The actual pre-out jacks are for direct connect to an external amp. That is the only way to have 7.1 in the main area and a zone 2 output at the same time.
Actually no. Just a misunderstanding. Your post indicated rerouting all 7CH to Zone 2, whereas apparently what you meant to say is that the SBL/SBR channels could be set to Zone 2.

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post #51 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I setup my Denon X2000 yesterday. It replaced a 10 year old Onkyo Receiver. I have to say so far not overly impressed. I ran the setup and Audyseey.
It set my sub to -12db and I could barely hear it. Also appears it did not put my Sub setup in proper mode LFE+Main ? Everything just sounds muddled. Whats the point of Audyssey if I have to manually set up things (SIGHS!). Also is it me or does the volume have to be in the 50 - 70 range on the dial before you can really hear any dialogue.
Also when I use Netflix on the TV (App) use ARC to send the sound back to the receiver, sometimes on initial firing up of TV and receiver sound does not work
At first I thought it was wrong input but I changed inputs and still same issue. Have to turn the Denon off and back on then it work. Also there are times when the Subwoofer does not come off standby (New BIC F12) not sure if that's the Denon or Sub? Quite a few kinks to work out just. I may rerun Auddessy balancing this weekend to see if it fixes the issues.
Is there a document out there that explains the Audyssey placement of mic better the image it shows during setup appears to have ?

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post #52 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 07:11 AM
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There are two very helpful threads ....

Posts 3-6 in the following thread ---> The 'Official' 2013 Denon "E Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

A master volume of 50-70 is normal.

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post #53 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by wirelessroute View Post
I setup my Denon X2000 yesterday. It replaced a 10 year old Onkyo Receiver. I have to say so far not overly impressed. I ran the setup and Audyseey.
It set my sub to -12db and I could barely hear it. Also appears it did not put my Sub setup in proper mode LFE+Main ? Everything just sounds muddled. Whats the point of Audyssey if I have to manually set up things (SIGHS!). Also is it me or does the volume have to be in the 50 - 70 range on the dial before you can really hear any dialogue.
Also when I use Netflix on the TV (App) use ARC to send the sound back to the receiver, sometimes on initial firing up of TV and receiver sound does not work
At first I thought it was wrong input but I changed inputs and still same issue. Have to turn the Denon off and back on then it work. Also there are times when the Subwoofer does not come off standby (New BIC F12) not sure if that's the Denon or Sub? Quite a few kinks to work out just. I may rerun Auddessy balancing this weekend to see if it fixes the issues.
Is there a document out there that explains the Audyssey placement of mic better the image it shows during setup appears to have ?
No brand/model will select LFE+Main by default. I recommend you don't use that mode anyway. Those polk front speakers have 8" mids that drop off before 50hz. Try setting all speakers to small with the crossover set to 60hz or higher. Turn + off. Forcing the mids to play full bass down to 20hz ruins everything. Audyssey will try to eq the room based on those settings so rerun mic setup after settings are changed.

If the receiver is setting the bass at -12 the subwoofer amp is turned up too high. When the receiver sets it near zero the sub amp is good. Once everything is set turn the bass up or down in the receiver manual speaker setting only. The master volume should go down a little. Unless near maximum volume don't worry about it. Crank it up to how loud you like.

Study the proper mic placement for best room eq measurements (always average several positions near sweet spot at minimum). Even then you may prefer the audyssey eq turned off. Crossover all smaller speakers at 80hz or higher. Some more info on audyssey xt buried deep in the audyssey thread.
"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
Even the person that wrote the audyssey fax thinks xt isn't that great. If you still don't like the denon try the Yamaha. Very clean sound and less handshake problems.
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post #54 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kikkenit2 View Post
No brand/model will select LFE+Main by default. I recommend you don't use that mode anyway. Those polk front speakers have 8" mids that drop off before 50hz. Try setting all speakers to small with the crossover set to 60hz or higher. Turn + off. Forcing the mids to play full bass down to 20hz ruins everything. Audyssey will try to eq the room based on those settings so rerun mic setup after settings are changed.

If the receiver is setting the bass at -12 the subwoofer amp is turned up too high. When the receiver sets it near zero the sub amp is good. Once everything is set turn the bass up or down in the receiver manual speaker setting only. The master volume should go down a little. Unless near maximum volume don't worry about it. Crank it up to how loud you like.

Study the proper mic placement for best room eq measurements (always average several positions near sweet spot at minimum). Even then you may prefer the audyssey eq turned off. Crossover all smaller speakers at 80hz or higher. Some more info on audyssey xt buried deep in the audyssey thread.
"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
Even the person that wrote the audyssey fax thinks xt isn't that great. If you still don't like the denon try the Yamaha. Very clean sound and less handshake problems.

Thanks I will try that the Subwoofer Amp was set to 5 (Mid) just like it ask me to during the Setup process.

EDIT: Ok I updated the settings via Browser since I am not at home
What should LPF for LFE its currently 120Hz

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post #55 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by wirelessroute View Post
Thanks I will try that the Subwoofer Amp was set to 5 (Mid) just like it ask me to during the Setup process.
Correct. That is the starting point. Pretty much trial and error on xt and below. Most brands are that way. Just get it close to 0. This should send a stronger signal to the subwoofer for initial turn-on. If that doesn't work set subwoofer to manual on. Yamaha is actually worse at turning on subwoofers. I use manual on when needed. Audyssey xt32 has a test tone to set subwoofer amp trim. It wants a 75db test tone before proceeding with all speakers. Set subwoofer crossover to bypass or highest level possible. Set phase to zero. Adjust later if brave. Let receiver decide sub amp level.


Some more on those speakers. Only 3-1/2" deep and only 2 way (high/mid) design/build. No way they should be sent a signal from 15hz to 2000hz or so. The specs don't give the mid/high crossover level. Save lfe+main for 3 way speakers with 2 crossovers built in. Like a 1"+8"+15" in one box. Just set all speakers to small and use pure 5.1. The receiver won't do it. All brands are stupid like this.
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post #56 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by wirelessroute View Post
What should LPF for LFE its currently 120Hz
120hz is correct. Denon is complicated in this way. They have 2 different bass crossovers settings. Leave LFE at the default 120 and set the other (real) bass crossover to 60hz minimum or 80hz is the most popular. Reserve higher than 80hz for speakers with 4" midrange drivers etc. Your 8" mids can handle 60hz and the subwoofer will like that too.
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post #57 of 83 Old 08-15-2014, 11:57 AM
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I wanted to chime in on this thread, if only to relay my recent (past 1-2 years) experiences with Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo.

I do A/V installs as part of my business and had been a long time Onkyo fan. That all changed in the last couple years. Their QC has really dropped - over 50% of the TX-NR series units that I purchased in the last 2 years have had one problem or another, many of them the HDMI issue, but several also had problems with the Zone 2 outputs.

Onkyo customer support was awful - difficult to get ahold of and not very helpful. On another forum I and 2 others described a problem with the Zone 2 output - I supplied unequivocal evidence that it was an issue with the Onkyo, not some other device in the system. The Onkyo reps response was something along the lines of 'are you sure' and 'I've never heard of that before'. The essentially just left the thread.

So - I gave up on Onkyo and don't recommend them any longer.

Yamaha, on the other hand - customer support was excellent, timely and on point. Super knowledgeable and cool guys to talk to.

Denon was much the same, though I've only had to call them once. With their latest series (AVR-X...) they really upped the game and offered more features than the Onkyo's at comparable pricing. I especially liked the variable Zone output volume control, something that was lacking on the Onkyo's.

Hopefully my experience will be useful to others. I think you made the right choice in going with the Denon!
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post #58 of 83 Old 08-16-2014, 02:09 AM
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Nice...forget Onkyo.
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post #59 of 83 Old 08-18-2014, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by wirelessroute View Post
pioneer 1123 has some quite a few reviews on defect parts on amazon wonder how wide of issue it is
also complaints about warranty and redemption
leaning toward Denon unless someone can suggest something better for the price
Pioneer won't warranty any receivers bought from amazon.(spent hours on the phone with pioneer trying to a get warranty on my 6 month old 1121 with a bad HDMI board) Something stupid about not a trusted partner. Also the 1 year warranty is way to short IMO.
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post #60 of 83 Old 08-19-2014, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by mulox View Post
Great thread, thanks for the feedback! I am in the same boat, as my Onkyo which is only 6 years old just died (HDMI board). TX-SR806
Ridiculous, considering I paid $500... they just DON'T make 'em like they used to!

While I do have a bad taste in my mouth on Onkyo, I do really like Audyssey. Dare I suggest the NR636 as a replacement?

I can get this for the same price as the Denon, $399...
http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR636

How does it compare to the Denon X2000?
Have you tried Onkyo Support they fixed my TX-NR808 one and a half years after the warranty ran out...for the price of shipping it to Midwest Audio. I call that "Going Above and Beyond" Support
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