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post #61 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post
Dolby was obviously not amused by our Youtube video so we weren't invited to their demos
Oh I doubt it was just the video, but your sustained campaign of disinformation (including the recent article) directed at something you've never ever heard (home Atmos).

At the time you did the video, there had been enough discussion on-line about Atmos-enabled speakers to make it obvious that the technology was more than merely a small upward firing bookshelf speakers sitting on top of another loudspeaker. But that is exactly what you showed in your video, calling it "Star Trek science" and telling viewers that Dolby is hoping that "the bass too will come up at the ceiling and magically bounce down to the listening area".

When you deliberately perpetrate lies like that, of course Dolby isn't going to invite you to their demos. I really hope Emotiva puts Atmos into one of their products so that you can finally disengage from your anti-Atmos campaign.

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post #62 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post
Hi guys, I saw this thread discussing Tom's article. Yes he is a glass half empty kind of guy and he wrote this as an opinion piece similar to how we've written articles in the past about HD DVD vs Blu-ray, DVD-A vs SACD, 3DTV, etc. We are actually working on a glass half-full kind of article on the 5 reasons why Atmos may succeed in the home environment. These type of articles are good to generate discussion and hopefully gain further knowledge on the topic.

Dolby was obviously not amused by our Youtube video so we weren't invited to their demos Oh well. I did send several emails asking questions like:

  • What benefit does a traditional 5.1/7.1 speaker layout have with Atmos if someone doesn't add height or Atmos-enabled speakers?
  • What are the BW requirements for an Atmos-enabled speaker?
  • Would a user be able to adopt a single set of already installed in-ceiling back surround speakers as Atmos speakers?
  • How will room correction systems EQ the Atmos Enabled speaker if Dolby has a specific target curve in mind?
  • How does the AVR calculate level and distance of Atmos speakers during auto-setup?

These are questions nobody in the mainstream press are asking. And I think they are questions worth asking.


But I never got a reply to these questions. In my view its still very unclear how a standard 7.1 setup would benefit from Atmos despite it being marketed as object based audio with speaker remapping.
Gene.. Actually most of those questions were asked by the press at the event I was at.

Dolby is going to release the answers to those questions around CEDIA time, in person at the show and through the release of in depth white papers. That was reported by me and others in the main Atmos thread.

They did say they want the Atmos enable speakers to reproduce from around 180Hz and up at reference SPL levels...

Dolby stated very clearly at the over hour long press q and a I was at that how the room correction and speaker setup is handled is up to the CE's to implement...

So your questions 4 and 5 are answered with a simple "depends on what manufacturer you are talking about."

For example, it appears as if Denon requires a fairly standard speaker placement.... that won't be true for others.. since almost all of the announced products are simple evolutions of existing products and platforms, it's little wonder that they aren't as flexible as they might be down the road. I can conceded that this might limit the ability to implement Atmos for some at launch, it's not really wise to assume these first products are the end all be all for Atmos.. far from it.

I think Dolby would recommend adding a pair of front enabled speakers to your proposed rear ceiling speakers if they are more towards the back of the room... I think they recommend either one pair of overheads or two equally spaced sets for best results.

At this time there is no benefit for those with 5.1 and 7.1 spearer setups.

It is up to the manufacturer to implement speaker rampaging..

Who exactly has stated Atmos includes such a feature? It uses the available speakers to render to, but the measurements of the room and the speakers, and what to do with that data, is up to the CE's to implement.

On a side note and commentary..

Are you really surprised at how Dolby has reacted to your video, and their apparent lack of outreach to you in the wake of it's release?

I assume you weren't invited to the NYC press event.

At the LA event, many I spoke to were as skeptical as you about the up firing speakers and many of the points you've raised. to suggest the press isn't making the kind of inquiries you are is misinformed as you weren't there to hear them asked.. that they haven't reported on such answers, or Dolby stated they would answer them in a certain time period.

If you think publishing this article calling a technology DOA without your supposed upcoming counterpoint the right way to make such points I disagree.

And to keep commenting about a new technology (Elevation, which isn't just a speaker but DSP) ever hearing it makes me wonder what standards you are using for objective journalism.

To then think Dolby is going to respond to you in a timely manner after such postings is a little naive, don't you think?

While the job of the press is certainly to be skeptical and find the truth, this article, without it's counterpoint, seems out of balance to me.

I'm in no way saying the author has no right to his opinion... it's the title and tone of his points that put me off personally, but many others find much to agree with in his points.
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post #63 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Oh I doubt it was just the video, but your sustained campaign of disinformation (including the recent article) directed at something you've never ever heard (home Atmos).

At the time you did the video, there had been enough discussion on-line about Atmos-enabled speakers to make it obvious that the technology was more than merely a small upward firing bookshelf speakers sitting on top of another loudspeaker. But that is exactly what you showed in your video, calling it "Star Trek science" and telling viewers that Dolby is hoping that "the bass too will come up at the ceiling and magically bounce down to the listening area".

When you deliberately perpetrate lies like that, of course Dolby isn't going to invite you to their demos. I really hope Emotiva puts Atmos into one of their products so that you can finally disengage from your anti-Atmos campaign.
Actually the Atmos speaker is supposed to pass 180Hz which is still very omnidirectional. In fact given the driver and baffle size of a 4" cone the speaker will still exhibit omni-directional behavior out to about 1kHz, maybe a bit higher. The technology still is a small upward firing driver but with some DSP processing in the AVR that has recently been disclosed and discussed in our 2nd Atmos video and a forthcoming article.

Research done by Dr. Edgar A.G.Shaw shows that the cues for sounds arriving from above are in the frequency range of about 7 - 12 kHz, and they are different for different people because our ears are all different. So with strong individual differences, and no idea of what the spectrum of the elevated sound is, we have a somewhat messy situation that deserves further study.

Yes b/c Emotiva adding that feature that Denon and Yamaha (both advertisers of Audioholics currently have and are marketing on our website) will change our "anti-atmos" campaign.

Part of our "anti-atmos" campaign included a favorable review of Gravity as well:
http://www.audioholics.com/blu-ray-movie-reviews/gravity-dolby-atmos

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post #64 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:00 PM
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What I foresee is that in most Atmos applications, it will be 5.1.2 Even as a designer/calibrator, from what I see daily, most are still using 5.1

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post #65 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
What I foresee is that in most Atmos applications, it will be 5.1.2 Even as a designer/calibrator, from what I see daily, most are still using 5.1
That's not a bad guess. Neither would 7.1.2
My decision will be based off of more information from Dolby as to whether the 4 ceiling speakers will benefit a room with a simple couch or if just 2 ceiling speakers will be fine.
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post #66 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene DellaSala View Post
Actually the Atmos speaker is supposed to pass 180Hz which is still very omnidirectional.
Then why say that Dolby is hoping to bounce bass off the ceiling? Did you want viewers to believe that frequencies below 180Hz (bass) were being reproduced by the upfiring drivers? Did you want viewers to believe that Dolby was hoping to turn the omnidirectional into directional by directing bass to the ceiling and having it ricochet down to the listeners?
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Part of our "anti-atmos" campaign included a favorable review of Gravity as well:
Knowing you would attempt to deflect like that is the reason I deliberately used the term "home Atmos", which your review of Gravity had nothing to do with.
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post #67 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:21 PM
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Gene.. Actually most of those questions were asked by the press at the event I was at.

Dolby is going to release the answers to those questions around CEDIA time, in person at the show and through the release of in depth white papers. That was reported by me and others in the main Atmos thread.

They did say they want the Atmos enable speakers to reproduce from around 180Hz and up at reference SPL levels...

Dolby stated very clearly at the over hour long press q and a I was at that how the room correction and speaker setup is handled is up to the CE's to implement...

So your questions 4 and 5 are answered with a simple "depends on what manufacturer you are talking about."

For example, it appears as if Denon requires a fairly standard speaker placement.... that won't be true for others.. since almost all of the announced products are simple evolutions of existing products and platforms, it's little wonder that they aren't as flexible as they might be down the road. I can conceded that this might limit the ability to implement Atmos for some at launch, it's not really wise to assume these first products are the end all be all for Atmos.. far from it.

I think Dolby would recommend adding a pair of front enabled speakers to your proposed rear ceiling speakers if they are more towards the back of the room... I think they recommend either one pair of overheads or two equally spaced sets for best results.

At this time there is no benefit for those with 5.1 and 7.1 spearer setups.

It is up to the manufacturer to implement speaker rampaging..

Who exactly has stated Atmos includes such a feature? It uses the available speakers to render to, but the measurements of the room and the speakers, and what to do with that data, is up to the CE's to implement.

On a side note and commentary..

Are you really surprised at how Dolby has reacted to your video, and their apparent lack of outreach to you in the wake of it's release?

I assume you weren't invited to the NYC press event.

At the LA event, many I spoke to were as skeptical as you about the up firing speakers and many of the points you've raised. to suggest the press isn't making the kind of inquiries you are is misinformed as you weren't there to hear them asked.. that they haven't reported on such answers, or Dolby stated they would answer them in a certain time period.

If you think publishing this article calling a technology DOA without your supposed upcoming counterpoint the right way to make such points I disagree.

And to keep commenting about a new technology (Elevation, which isn't just a speaker but DSP) ever hearing it makes me wonder what standards you are using for objective journalism.

To then think Dolby is going to respond to you in a timely manner after such postings is a little naive, don't you think?

While the job of the press is certainly to be skeptical and find the truth, this article, without it's counterpoint, seems out of balance to me.

I'm in no way saying the author has no right to his opinion... it's the title and tone of his points that put me off personally, but many others find much to agree with in his points.
Thanks for the follow-up and courtesy information. Yes our Youtube video was a bit brash but it was well received for the most part. You have to be a bit more blunt and dynamic on Youtube than just regular editorial reporting. It's a much different audience and as you can see our video has over 4X the views and 100 comments compared to Atmos video done on this very site!

A counterpoint article will come and people can decide for themselves at that point. We space out content for obvious reasons. I allow our writers free reign to express their opinions on my site even if they aren't popular.

On a unrelated note people on this very website bashed me several years ago when I pointed out (through measurements) how the ICE implementation on Pioneer receivers was very limited as it was unable to drive 4 ohm loads. The rest of the press only tested at 1kHz and missed this declaring the ICE was more powerful than competitor AB amps. Years later I was thanked by Pioneer Engineers at CEDIA for pointing out this limitation. I was called by several loudspeaker manufacturers that had to change their crossovers b/c the Pioneer ICE was shutting down since their speakers dipped into 4 ohms above 3kHz. Now we've come full circle and Pioneer no longer uses ICE. They now have their own Class D module without the limitation. Hmmm. Yet I was crucified here. That's OK. I can take it.

I'm not a journalist. I'm an engineer that happens to write about audio. I don't give press release style interviews for exotic cable companies like the shameful one I saw recently on Monster Cable on Youtube. I question claims. I test claims. It's my very nature. It often doesn't make me popular. But i enjoy the work. When I'm wrong, I admit it. I look forward to being proven wrong about my concerns on how Atmos is currently being implemented and I also look forward to seeing how the technology evolves over time.

DVD-A and SACD was a complete disaster when it first came out. I listed the defficiencies via several articles. Of course a similar reaction ensued on this very website. I worked with manufacturers and even discussed with mixing engineers about the need for bass management and how to properly mix the LFE channel. I beta tested AVR's for manufacturers. The tech got really good once it went digital but sadly lacked studio support and demand from the average consumer. Now it's a niche that I still use and embrace despite it being a commercial failure. I suspect Atmos will be similar in that the benefits will be for a very small market share of HT enthusiasts that can accommodate more than 5 speakers plus a sub in their living rooms.

BTW regarding your comment about how Dolby wants an Atmos speaker to hit reference levels from 180Hz and up. I find that rather interesting giving the 2 Atmos speakers Onkyo and Def Tech are offering that each contain a single 3" paper treated driver. Not much dynamic capability there especially for those running a much more capable 5.1 speaker system deploying larger and multiple drivers.

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post #68 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:25 PM
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...In any event, I will be getting in an Atmos Denon receiver with 4 Def Tech Atmos speakers ($499/pr for a 3" paper treated driver, WOW!) and Atmos Blu-rays to evaluate in a couple of months. I will be measuring the Atmos speakers, the Atmos transfer function and Bass management to better understand the tech. I will also be doing listening evaluations. If I am completely blown away as many here have been then I will literally eat my own hat on our Youtube Channel. ....
Will you test other ways to implement Atmos. I understand why folks would be skeptical about Atmos speakers, but they are only an option, not the only solution. Perhaps they can be evaluated separated from Atmos as a whole. I am glad Dolby worked hard to find a solution for those that don’t have the ability to add speakers above them. Having more than one solution to what may be a difficult upgrade to some is good. It seems that much of the “glass half empty” deals directly with these speakers.
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post #69 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:25 PM
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Then why say that Dolby is hoping to bounce bass off the ceiling? Did you want viewers to believe that frequencies below 180Hz (bass) were being reproduced by the upfiring drivers? Did you want viewers to believe that Dolby was hoping to turn the omnidirectional into directional by directing bass to the ceiling and having it ricochet down to the listeners? Knowing you would attempt to deflect like that is the reason I deliberately used the term "home Atmos", which your review of Gravity had nothing to do with.
At the time we shot the first Atmos video it wasn't public knowledge that the Atmos speaker had a HPF at 180Hz. It may have been discussed here but I don't frequent forums too often and it wasn't officially announced by Dolby so we went with the variables that were known.

Yes somehow I'm on a pro-Atmos Cinema campaign but an anti-amos campaign for home. It must be because Emotiva doesn't make Cinema Processors

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post #70 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:30 PM
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Will you test other ways to implement Atmos. I understand why folks would be skeptical about Atmos speakers, but they are only an option, not the only solution. Perhaps they can be evaluated separated from Atmos as a whole. I am glad Dolby worked hard to find a solution for those that don’t have the ability to add speakers above them. Having more than one solution to what may be a difficult upgrade to some is good. It seems that much of the “glass half empty” deals directly with these speakers.
Unfortunately the only theater room in my home that uses in-ceiling speakers is my family room system back channels. According to my understanding of Atmos you can't simply deploy a single set of in-ceiling height channels unless they are located mid-room. Mine are located a couple of feet behind the couch so that won't work.

We have two of our staff going to CEDIA to check out the Atmos demos and compare ceiling vs atmos speakers. Unfortunately I won't be there this time around.

I often hear people saying the in-ceiling speakers can be a distracting hence why they prefer the reflective speakers. I wonder if they simply forgot to lower the levels on the in-ceiling speakers a few dB to compensate? I felt during my Gravity demo that the overhead speakers were WAY too loud. I think it's possible that discrete mounted speakers may need to be turned down 3 or maybe 6dB from the rest of the channels to provide a more natural effect without taking away anything from the core 5.7 or 7.1 main channels.

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post #71 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:32 PM
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... Atmos will be similar in that the benefits will be for a very small market share of HT enthusiasts that can accommodate more than 5 speakers plus a sub in their living rooms. ...
I agree that Atmos (done right) will be a niche market but as long as studios release content with Atmos, it can survive and serve those who embrace and enjoy it. DOA implies gone forever. Just a thought.
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post #72 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:36 PM
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Not to mention if your home has vaulted ceilings in the only area you can set up your av system, you are fubar............
Oh but not @ all. ...Some rooms with vaulted ceilings are some of the best sounding rooms.

With vaulted ceilings you have so many options that are impossible with lower ceilings of approximately eight feet in height.
- You can hang speakers @ different levels.
- You can install a hanging platform and make it absorptive.
- You can switch that same platform on its other side (reflective).
- Live music has more room to breathe, expand to; excellent.

- And I can make a very extensive list on all the beneficial aspects of vaulted ceilings; people who have vaulted ceilings should be proud and feel privileged to have more options and freedom in tuning the sound to greater preference. ...I truly believe and that's what I hear too from where I live now, and from all the places I lived in before with vaulted ceilings.

For home theaters, if you are serious (movies and soundtracks are serious entertainment business), a high well treated ceiling is a good thing.

With Dolby Atmos the entire world just opened up. ...The possibilities are limitless, and no matter the shape of your room and the shape you're in.
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post #73 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:59 PM
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Oh I doubt it was just the video, but your sustained campaign of disinformation (including the recent article) directed at something you've never ever heard (home Atmos).

At the time you did the video, there had been enough discussion on-line about Atmos-enabled speakers to make it obvious that the technology was more than merely a small upward firing bookshelf speakers sitting on top of another loudspeaker. But that is exactly what you showed in your video, calling it "Star Trek science" and telling viewers that Dolby is hoping that "the bass too will come up at the ceiling and magically bounce down to the listening area".

When you deliberately perpetrate lies like that, of course Dolby isn't going to invite you to their demos. I really hope Emotiva puts Atmos into one of their products so that you can finally disengage from your anti-Atmos campaign.
I'm not privy to your info, but I think I concur with the general tone of your post. I am mildly interested in Atmos, so when I saw the sensationalistic thread title, "Why Dolby Atmos is DOA", I clicked on it thinking someone wanting attention was attempting a thread. Imagine my surprise when I found the source was Audioholics! It seems to me they are trying to drum up some hits to their lonely site, when I visit their forum it's really dead in there. Some sections get 4 or 5 posts per day, and it's the same 12 or so regulars giving the same opinions or advice, ugh. Not surprised Gene popped up here to defend and push the topic, but really it's just an opinion piece, not worthy of any hand wringing.
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post #74 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 02:03 PM
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It may have been discussed here but I don't frequent forums too often and it wasn't officially announced by Dolby so we went with the variables that were known.
What "variables that were known" led you to invent the strawman that Dolby was hoping to bounce bass off the ceiling in a directional manner, only so you could ridicule them for something they never did (nor announced)? And if you didn't know how Dolby was doing Atmos-enabled speakers, then why deliberately come up with something that defies physics?
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It must be because Emotiva doesn't make Cinema Processors
Looks like I hit a nerve.
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post #75 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 02:15 PM
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Hi guys, I saw this thread discussing Tom's article. Yes he is a glass half empty kind of guy and he wrote this as an opinion piece similar to how we've written articles in the past about HD DVD vs Blu-ray, DVD-A vs SACD, 3DTV, etc. We are actually working on a glass half-full kind of article on the 5 reasons why Atmos may succeed in the home environment. These type of articles are good to generate discussion and hopefully gain further knowledge on the topic.

Dolby was obviously not amused by our Youtube video so we weren't invited to their demos Oh well. I did send several emails asking questions like:

  • What benefit does a traditional 5.1/7.1 speaker layout have with Atmos if someone doesn't add height or Atmos-enabled speakers?
  • What are the BW requirements for an Atmos-enabled speaker?
  • Would a user be able to adopt a single set of already installed in-ceiling back surround speakers as Atmos speakers?
  • How will room correction systems EQ the Atmos Enabled speaker if Dolby has a specific target curve in mind?
  • How does the AVR calculate level and distance of Atmos speakers during auto-setup?

These are questions nobody in the mainstream press are asking. And I think they are questions worth asking.


But I never got a reply to these questions. In my view its still very unclear how a standard 7.1 setup would benefit from Atmos despite it being marketed as object based audio with speaker remapping. For 90% of consumers not able to add Atmos speakers or additional height channels there doesn't yet seem to be a benefit with the current generation of products being deployed. Again I don't see this point being discussed.

It's very possible that Atmos will trickle its way into the market at even entry level price points despite most users wont use it much like TrueHD did. As much as I love TrueHD, the bulk of consumers are still lucky to decode DD which is sad b/c TrueHD was a true quantum leap forward in sound quality, especially for music Blu-ray.

In any event, I will be getting in an Atmos Denon receiver with 4 Def Tech Atmos speakers ($499/pr for a 3" paper treated driver, WOW!) and Atmos Blu-rays to evaluate in a couple of months. I will be measuring the Atmos speakers, the Atmos transfer function and Bass management to better understand the tech. I will also be doing listening evaluations. If I am completely blown away as many here have been then I will literally eat my own hat on our Youtube Channel. I look forward to this as I plan on continuing to cover Atmos initially from a skeptics point of view but with real hard data and subjective impressions when I'm able to do so.

In any event thanks for all the feedback and sharing the knowledge as it becomes more readily available.
Hi Gene,

That's a great post above, and I agree with you on arousing, creating interesting discussions with questions to learn more. That, I totally agree with you. And having the verve to express your ideas and imagination is good for the spirit and the soul and the new frontiers of discoveries.

I guess Dolby wasn't much impressed with your video; I wonder why...

* I've been reading all articles and reviews from Audioholics since the very beginning when you started it and Clint joined. I even registered as a member in your forums. ...What a wild ride it was!

Some articles and reviews you wrote yourself are great reference pieces of audio information, and I expanded my knowledge from your writings. I cannot say the same from your forums though. But that, is the nature of the beast as the people decide of the overall direction taken, with your guidance, Clint's guidance, and Tom and your entire staff. ...And your highly prominent forums' members.
Every audio site (forums) is different, but yours is truly a piece of work. ...The chicklets game...

Still, some of your articles are some of the best in the biz.

And too bad about that Dolby Atmos video of yours; you didn't get to be invited to their demo.
But this is the world we live in; it goes real fast and there is no time to fool around, people are very sensitive and nobody likes wasting their time with superficial ideas and theories based on empty air.
Everyone deserves their fair due respect, I truly think.

We learn from our past experiences, and I'm sure that you can see that too.
An action creates a reaction, and interactions ensue...and in ways we don't always predict or estimate.
Your video on Dolby Atmos was such, and so was Tom's article. Your(s) intention was pure, to create reactions, opinions, and discussions; and that you now have. Welcome to the new "objects" world.
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post #76 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I am mildly interested in Atmos, so when I saw the sensationalistic thread title, "Why Dolby Atmos is DOA", I clicked on it thinking someone wanting attention was attempting a thread. Imagine my surprise when I found the source was Audioholics! It seems to me they are trying to drum up some hits to their lonely site, when I visit their forum it's really dead in there.
Likewise, no surprise when I saw the source, considering their history on this topic. Seems they got the attention they wanted.
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post #77 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post
I wonder how many posting here even read that article. Most of the points made in that article could be made without ever listening to it. I've not heard Atmos and might not ever hear it. I have a 5.1 setup that I'm quite happy with - I don't want/need 7.1 or 11.4 or 22.6 - crap! Where does it all stop? (I know the answer to that!) I'm not even interested in 7.1/7.2 etc. Wides and height? Nope. And I'm not alone. When I watch a movie having the sound originate from the general location of the action is good enough. I'm more interested in the story - sounds are secondary. Crap - I'd rather read a good book - if only my aging eyes would allow me to read for 5 hours straight!

I have another hobby - astronomy. Some on this forum remind me of the gear heads in astronomy. More concerned with resolving power - $500 eyepieces - GPS auto-tracking mounts. I wonder if they ever get out under the stars and just - look!

Enjoy the 'stars' guys!
I've read the article by Tom, and I saw the video with Gene and his buddy.
And I've read millions of posts over @ Audioholics, and many many more audio forums of the Wide World Web, including and not excluding the Emotiva Lounge.

And all of us we all have other hobbies too, of course. ...We all have a life with things and people who we give more or less priorities according to our own set of values.
For me Cinema is "big in Japan". ...Way of speech (Tom Waits) to say that I put time and effort @ improving it, reading about it, learning about it, sharing it, and be happy about it.

And now with Dolby Atmos my world has finally got even bigger.
So articles and videos the type Audioholics like to propagate around are not my bag. ...Too negative for my own taste, even if I understand where those guys are coming from (I've been reading them for more than fifteen years). ...And I'm very familiar with their writing style/skills, and their forums too.

* I love the sky, the stars; astronomy, the universe, the space...and our planet with the people living on it.
...The wildlife too, and the mountains, the trees of the forests/jungles, the oceans, the lakes, the rivers, ...the nature.
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Last edited by NorthSky; 08-16-2014 at 02:21 PM. Reason: Emo
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post #78 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 03:16 PM
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Likewise, no surprise when I saw the source, considering their history on this topic. Seems they got the attention they wanted.
Well, they got some hits for today anyway.
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post #79 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post
First off, let me just say that I would like very much to be able to implement this Dolby Atmos system in my own existing 5.1 set up. However some of the reasons outlined in this article from Audioholics really summed it all up for me. Here are their top 5 reasons cited in the article.

The article goes into a brief explanation of each.

1) Atmos simply doesn't have enough Wow!
2) The only people that will buy Atmos speakers won't know what to do with them
3) You didn't buy height/width speakers but you'll hang them on your ceiling?
4) The speakers are stupid (refering to the top mount drivers)
5) It costs too much.

Here is the link http://www.audioholics.com/audio-tec...y-atmos-is-doa

I don't know how many people here truly feel regarding the advent of Dolby's Atmos system, but from reading this and other forums I believe the consensus is that it will not succeed.

Thoughts

Paul

Well Paul, ready or not, it's coming.


Dolby moves forward: Dolby Atmos Update_Aug12th
http://hometheater.about.com/od/home...me-Theater.htm


Bring on the Choppers!
Thank heavens ( above) for drop ceilings! Two more 2-way ceiling speakers on the way.


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post #80 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 03:30 PM
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And arguably each of those is pretty much a niche product except perhaps the Blu-ray player itself. It is commonly acknowledged that surround sound never really captured the public imagination the way HD and flat screens did.

I've heard Atmos and I like it. But I have waited for two decades for home surround to really take off, and somehow I doubt Atmos will change the equation... especially not since Atmos soundtracks will still be backward compatible. That is bound to cause confusion... I can hear it now: "It plays, why do I need a new AVR and speakers?" I am glad it will be supported, I plan to buy into it. But I have no illusions that it will be a slam-dunk success at home.
I wouldn't say surround sound hasn't captured the public's imagination, but there is definitely a lack of understanding how much audio contributes to the AV experience. I'm always shocked to see large TV screens with soundbars, or worse yet, the built-in speakers.

Atmos isn't going to be anywhere as widespread as 5.1 is. Atmos will be successful in mid- to high-end installations, although I have a really hard time believing that the 5.1.2 setups with bounce-sound are going to be any good at all. I think Atmos will only make sense on good 7.1 systems to move to something like 7.2.4.

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Not to mention if your home has vaulted ceilings in the only area you can set up your av system, you are fubar............
Pretty much.

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With vaulted ceilings you have so many options that are impossible with lower ceilings of approximately eight feet in height.
- You can hang speakers @ different levels.
- You can install a hanging platform and make it absorptive.
Yes, people are going to hang a plaform for their speakers in their living room. The WAF on that is going to be great!
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post #81 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 04:05 PM
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I share the sentiments that Atmos is not a slam dunk. I've made a "DOA" statement once...on Kaleidescape. Is it a huge success? Well, it's huge enough to have the company to still be around for quite a number of years
Kaleidescape was the product that bumped me from movie collector to home theatre enthusiast. It's too bad it took so long for them to come out with an "affordable" model, and then they went and put such a small limit on it that the it still too pricey for the actual (rather than intended) consumer.

Atmos isn't DOA, but it has a much, much tougher hill to climb than K-scape ever did. For one thing, it's more speakers that need to be wired and mounted, and not conveniently by any means. Mostly, it is a pro-install sort of thing. Your average family isn't going to be mounting speakers on the ceiling in the middle of the room, especially if it is multi-purpose.
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post #82 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 04:15 PM
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I found myself skeptical about the up-firing speakers that have been designed to be used in applications where actual ceiling speakers are not used. Are they a perfect solution? Not even close. But at the same time, when I was sitting and listening to them, they sounded incredible and they do "work" in that they are getting the job done. They are like nearly any work-around - not as awesome as the genuine article, but much better than nothing at all.

If my current setup supported adding ATMOS, I wouldn't be opposed to using them. But unfortunately, I have to wait until our move for that to happen. Once that happens though, I get a dedicated room, so ceiling mounted becomes a non-issue.
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post #83 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 04:22 PM
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NS, I'm confused. Which one these represents your opinion of Dolby Atmos: The Audioholics view of skepticism, or the "the possibilities are limitless" view you just posted? If you meant a sarcasm mode, you should indicate it in whatever post isn't reflecting your, um, true views. We get sarcasm here .

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Not only that; but Audioholics is the only authority that truly matters in all things audiophile.
They listen to their forum members with total dedication and addiction.

They should be fully trusted. I have total confidence in their superb team of audio experts and electrical engineers. It's a fun place to hang around when you want to learn something different.

Dolby Atmos; what do they truly know about it. ...Just checking their video is a good indication; not much @ all. But that's the way they like doing things; with zest and detachment first.
OR

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.
With Dolby Atmos the entire world just opened up. ...The possibilities are limitless, and no matter the shape of your room and the shape you're in.

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post #84 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Aryn Ravenlocke View Post
Kaleidescape was the product that bumped me from movie collector to home theatre enthusiast. It's too bad it took so long for them to come out with an "affordable" model, and then they went and put such a small limit on it that the it still too pricey for the actual (rather than intended) consumer.

Atmos isn't DOA, but it has a much, much tougher hill to climb than K-scape ever did. For one thing, it's more speakers that need to be wired and mounted, and not conveniently by any means. Mostly, it is a pro-install sort of thing. Your average family isn't going to be mounting speakers on the ceiling in the middle of the room, especially if it is multi-purpose.
From demo I listened to, I actually prefer the bank-shot speakers. How am I going to add the bank-shot speakers to my SA Aura 30 speakers are beyond me.

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post #85 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 04:51 PM
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Research done by Dr. Edgar A.G.Shaw shows that the cues for sounds arriving from above are in the frequency range of about 7 - 12 kHz
Could you cite the reference please? Thanks!

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post #86 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 04:53 PM
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[SIZE=2]Then why say that Dolby is hoping to bounce bass off the ceiling? Did you want viewers to believe that frequencies below 180Hz (bass) were being reproduced by the upfiring drivers? Did you want viewers to believe that Dolby was hoping to turn the omnidirectional into directional by directing bass to the ceiling and having it ricochet down to the listeners?


How do you stop redirected bass from bouncing off the ceiling regardless of what driver generates it?
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post #87 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 04:58 PM
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I'm going to be pre wiring a dedicated theater in about 3 months. To pre wire Atmos or not. That is the question. If I do go down the Atmos route, it won't be for at least a year or 2. I am running high and wide now with flat wall mounted speakers that could be mounted to the ceiling. I guess is I'd kick myself for not pre wiring if Atmos is a viable codec.
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post #88 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 05:59 PM
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All;

Our site legend that identifies the article type is archaic and needs a complete overhaul in our coming redesign. Even I often get confused by the little graphical legends and what they mean

In any event, I added this to the header of Tom's article.
Quote:
This article is an opinion piece. The opinions shared by the author of this article don't necessarily conform to the site operatives.
Have a nice weekend and happy listening.

Best Regards;

Gene DellaSala (GDS)
President, Audioholics.com
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post #89 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 06:24 PM
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I'm a member of the Audioholics forum. Not hugely active but I've been there a long time. Audioholics does have an editorial bias that I can sum up in three words, "bang for buck." Most of their members share that philosophy which is why only a minority are ready to jump on a new technology that hasn't been tested yet.

I think they have sparked an interesting dialogue with Tom's opinion piece, both there and here. As an enthusiast, I'm taking a wait and see attitude but I'm glad Tom said what he did. The various A/V manufacturers keep coming up with new technologies to get us to buy new stuff even though the benefits are questionable. The geek in me likes the potential of Dolby Atmos (and the inevitable competition from DTS). I won't jump on the bandwagon until I know there are tangible benefits.

My AVR is six years old and I've been thinking about replacing it for a while but can't justify it to myself. At best, I'd be able to eliminate and extra HDMI cable to the TV because my AVR won't pass 3D. Since I only own two 3D movies, I could probably just eliminate that cable by taking it down. I might be able to eliminate the optical cable from my TV to AVR if ARC works. That's a pretty big "if" based on what I've read.

Now I sit on the sidelines waiting to see if Dolby Atmos or whatever gives me a reason to upgrade. Maybe by this time next year I'll have an answer to that.

Jim
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post #90 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 06:30 PM
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You ain't seen my house.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Oh but not @ all. ...Some rooms with vaulted ceilings are some of the best sounding rooms.

With vaulted ceilings you have so many options that are impossible with lower ceilings of approximately eight feet in height.
- You can hang speakers @ different levels.
- You can install a hanging platform and make it absorptive.
- You can switch that same platform on its other side (reflective).
- Live music has more room to breathe, expand to; excellent.

- And I can make a very extensive list on all the beneficial aspects of vaulted ceilings; people who have vaulted ceilings should be proud and feel privileged to have more options and freedom in tuning the sound to greater preference. ...I truly believe and that's what I hear too from where I live now, and from all the places I lived in before with vaulted ceilings.

For home theaters, if you are serious (movies and soundtracks are serious entertainment business), a high well treated ceiling is a good thing.

With Dolby Atmos the entire world just opened up. ...The possibilities are limitless, and no matter the shape of your room and the shape you're in.
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