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post #151 of 209 Old 08-16-2014, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
and your point being? like I said, human nature & the real world side of any business.

if you think it works otherwise, you aren't living on planet earth with 7 billion fellow human beings

if what you say is indeed true, I don't see anything nefarious about it...it's business & sales 101. sell the easiest ones first, then work on the hard ones I've been in technical sales for much of my career; I could call on companies & facilities that would have a 10-20 % chance of closure in 10 yrs or I can focus more on ones that I had a 30-50% chance of closing.

if you aren't in the business world, marketing, sales, technical sales, advertising, then maybe you don't know as much about the real world of sales & business marketing.

I'd personally much prefer to do a sales campaign on a prospect who was open-minded than I would one who hated my company. And yes, I have had those experiences, and the chance to sell a corporate engineer who was screwed by your company years ago is slim to none.

this is why I can see why Gene wasn't invited...it's obvious! Don't blame Dolby for acting in its own interests, the blame is on the attitude of Audioholics & Mr Gene.

be realistic, Rich
As Gene mentioned, he isn't a journalist.

Their criteria for who was and wasn't invited could've been based on credentials, location, available seats, etc... while we all see a fairly logical reason for a "snub" we should assume anything (I'm guilty of it too.)
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post #152 of 209 Old 08-16-2014, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Completely not true...

With non-Atmos encoded content, Dolby has created a new umpiring technology called "Dolby Surround"... it will take 2.0 and greater content and mix it to whatever you have setup for Atmos, the minimum requirement being 5.1.2

Where did you get that idea?
I thought that was what someone was implying with a response? UNless I got it mixed up from another thread.?

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post #153 of 209 Old 08-16-2014, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
So you don't use BR for a source?

You mentioned how you pass BR through your TV to your AVR via optical..

Just how old is your AVR?

Regardless...

I'm not sure why the commentary... nobody except you has made a mention about the lack of Atmos delivery on a 20 year old lossy encoding stream...

And it won't be compatible with an internet TV...

It's like saying "well I want to have the latest and greatest tech, but expect it for free over my legacy connections..."


Yes, my AVR is pre-HDMI. However with Atmos coming out now, I am not going to upgrade to any type of new AVR until I see how everything shakes out.

Yes, I watch Bluray and upscaled DVD via an HDMI connection direct to an 3D internet television (2011 model year).

Yes, I connect my off air air internet tv's ATSC tuner to the AVR via optical so I can get multi-channel DD (when available) from off air programming. Kind of hard to do that any other way.


I will wait and see what content is available via Atmos Bluray over the next year or so. If I don't like the content that is available, then the AVR update decision will be made for me by Hollywood.

I still have not watched a 3D movie on my TV!
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post #154 of 209 Old 08-16-2014, 08:13 PM
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For a minute I thought I was on the Emo XMC-1 thread, Gene from AH (if it was Emo then it would be great site/sound unheard) and everyone who hasn't heard it declaring its dead. Never understand the need to bury things before you've heard them. New things in AV land are good, no new products means a dying industry.

All I know is just about any mainstream receiver worth owning this year will have Atmos on it - if that's dead then I would hate to see what we think of 3D. No badges for those who have yet to watch a 3D movie - there are a bunch of us. Just not my thing, but for those who enjoy it - great.
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post #155 of 209 Old 08-16-2014, 10:19 PM
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i would not consider this as i am not ready to replace any gear but if my receiver dies i would assume that the cost for the atmos receivers would be down - to a point that i would consider it - since my ht has the lcr and a pair of surrounds in the ceiling i suppose i could make this work pretty easily - with out a lot of gear changes or room mods. i have never heard atmos so i suppose i would want to listen first to see if it is worth the bother...but i am years away on considering this -
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post #156 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
Interesting thread time will tell plus DTS announce DTS-UHD

• Customized rendering designed for arbitrary speaker layouts enables consumers to adapt their AV system to their own home environment rather than pre-determined speaker layouts
Yes;posted that awhile ago in another atmos inclined thread . A very good reason to wait for the 2nd generation considering the set speaker configurations for xyz rendering in the 1st gen . If you have the correctly positioned speakers already though more power to you

I appreciated the backhander above from dts about true rendering already being incorporated into a cirrus logic chipset ; and we know how many ce's rely on cirrus logic dsp processors Things can only get more interesting . Object audio is indeed more profound than just a new codec ; not hard to see chipsets turning up in all sorts of low and high end products imho. Buzzwords like atmos and decals on equipment will help sell average Joe that he needs the 'latest ' even if he doesn't know how to wire it ; ''just look at these new speakers sir '' - well maybe

Ime reminded of how the ps3 was the very clever trojan horse that helped determine who won the hi def disc war ; license enough chips and one genre [ht] follows the other [games ] . A possible analogy is chipsets in all those panels with 2ch speakers ..

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post #157 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Human nature. People don't like others having more than they have. So it's not enough to not have Atmos, they have to persuade others to not have it either.
Spot on Sanjay!

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post #158 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 06:45 AM
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Ok, so I didn't read the article or most of this thread for that matter.

Still- this is a hobbyist forum...mostly.


Basically it will require a new avr and some some speaker re-arrangement for a good number.

I don't and never did think we were going to get a new wheel: I thought we 'd get improved surround sound. And there's nothing yet I've taken in saying we're getting anything less.

Let's see what happens.

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post #159 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
you must mean everyone not anyone
which word makes an astronomical difference
According to Steve Gutenburg the whole concept(surround) is dead!
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post #160 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 09:04 AM
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^
Oh? I guess that means all of us should scrap our systems because Guttenberg says it's dead.
Sorry but I didn't get the notice

If you meant the word "anyone" seriously, your sentence is definitely wrong, because there are whole lots of people with 5.1 and "can't get anyone to do 5.1" means no one does 5.1, clearly incorrect. I'm not nitpicking what you said or position, it's your grammatical use of the word "anyone" which in your sentence literally would mean no one on the planet has 5.1

If you meant the whole post to be tongue-in-cheek, then I sure didn't get the humor or sarcasm.

Steve

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post #161 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
Completely not true...

With non-Atmos encoded content, Dolby has created a new umpiring technology called "Dolby Surround"... it will take 2.0 and greater content and mix it to whatever you have setup for Atmos, the minimum requirement being 5.1.2

Where did you get that idea?
Thanks. I must admit, I'm quite intrigued by the concept of Dolby Atmos. I'm not one to be an early adopter, but I have always held to the old saying, "Don't knock it 'til you've tried it."

I find myself thinking about how this might steer film making now. I was watching a scene from the Avengers, where Ironman's entrance in the movie starts from underwater and he flies up out of the water to return to Stark Tower. His track was simply lateral to the viewer. I couldn't help thinking that, with Atmos in mind, they might create a similar scene where the character is above and passing overhead.
That said, I'm glad it will be backward compatible.
Ceiling speaker's would be a problem for me. But I could go for the directed type. How much of the sound we hear has bounced around anyway?
...and doesn't everyone have two home theaters these days?
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post #162 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 11:12 AM
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I want Atmos to be something that impresses me enough that I decide it worth the upgrade. However at this point it isn't something that I intend to be an early adopter of. I've got a few more years until I'm going to be at a point where I'm going to be in the market for a new AVR. I plan on following the developments with Atmos over the next few years and when the time comes for a new AVR I'm hoping we will be closer to know if Atmos is a thing that actually is going to have a space in the market.
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post #163 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TMcG View Post
You do realize that most of the sound coming into your ears is reflected from all of your room's surfaces, don't you?

I was meaning to refer to the Atmos enabled speakers that reflect sound off of the ceiling. Andrew Jones has even stated that ceiling fans can pose a problem for those style speakers. I have no interest in mounting speakers on or to my ceiling so the reflected style would be my only option. Except they aren't really.

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post #164 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 02:37 PM
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One other thought on the ceiling speakers is that ideas like this by all chances had been explored long ago at the start of DD and DTS standards. There were good reasons to go with surround and rear speakers rather than height, width, or ceiling speakers. I doubt those reasons have changed much for home theatre and for quality music presentation. This alone, pretty much explained the short life of height and width speakers (DOA more or less). It's a step back to retry some other speaker positioning/sound effects that have been given up in favor of surround/rear. I'm not saying that the entire ceiling, height/width speaker concept is garbage. It is worth a try at somebody's expense and it entertains some folks obviously. It is fair to say, these aren't new ideas although they are presented that way for marketing reasons. To the contrary, they are most likely old and dumped ideas when everything is balanced. It makes me think of Google glasses.


The object based/oriented sound coding is a great idea, but again, it isn't something new either. I guess most folks realize that it is quite common in a business, the smart engineers have thought of many alternatives, most of which are ruled out for sales, market, profit reasons at the time.


Is it easier to code object-based sound than 7.1 channels? Likely not on a one-on-one basis, but certainly makes copy/paste a lot easier, so to speak.


Has the balance tilted now towards to more front, up-mounted speakers? I am not excited for it. When I researched and tried height speakers (gave it up in a heart-beat), I saw some claim one of the benefits is to raise the soundstage higher. Well, isn't it better to have the tweeters at EAR LEVEL? Just raise the front speakers for higher soundstage! Some must be trying hard to do sth. different and get excited, but science won't change. But, that excitement is unlikely a lasting one, and that experiment was done long ago.

I have got 4 good SVS subs, but I won't be buying anything shooting up or going up ceilings. In fact, I am getting more things to control the sounds coming from there, because 99% of the sound I care shouldn't be coming from there.


It will be interesting to see how this works out for DOLBY. I don't really care one way or another, just hope that the new standard is kept backward compatible.

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post #165 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
My .02 counterpoint.



1. " Atmos simply doesn't have enough Wow!"



From Gene, head of Audioholics.com

Gene's Theatrical Experience with Atmos and Gravity

So why wouldn't anyone interested in HT want to try and replicate that at home...

Not enough wow?

2. "The only people that will buy Atmos speakers won't know what to do with them."

That's a cynical comment that assumes that most home theater consumers are inept and not tech savvy. I don't think it needs much follow up.

3. "You didn't buy height/width speakers but you'll hang them on your ceiling?"

Fair enough. But there hasn't been discrete content made for the format, only technologies that can create such content artificially with the added detriment of artifacts that can effect the rest of the sound field.

And they have offered a solution for some users that is very acceptable...

No one is forcing the tech down the consumers throat.. for those that do, they are making a variety of options available

4. "The speakers are stupid (refering to the top mount drivers)...."

.... that he's never heard, or demoed.

There are plenty of first hand accounts out now that have experienced them... no one has termed them "stupid."

5. "It costs too much."

If one wanted to get off the ground running, a new Atmos AVR and Atmos speakers can be had for less than $900.. the Onkyo's are very reasonable.

So while the price to performance reaction might be debatable for some, for others it is quite reasonable to get the "wow" factor that Gene experienced in the theater.

It's going to cost something...

They worked hard to fit it into the existing infrastructure You only need to upgrade the two pieces that obvious need to be replaced.. the AVR/SSP and speakers.. no new BR, no new HDMI cables, no new streaming boxes..

Again.. just my .02.
you are skipping a lot of things in there from a practical standpoint
let me say up front I have not heard atmos and cant offer any real world opinion

However

Number 3 could easily be a deal breaker for some

The other part...as you mention the other parts that need to be replaced are the AVR/SSP and speakers

thats all......ok
the bulk of the expense for many resides there

and if you recently bought several thousand dollars of say AVR/SSP and speakers and now they all have to be replaced

that is a bitter pill

especially when speakers...which can be the most expensive portion of the home theater investment all total...are typically something that doesn't evolve much
As a total system of 5.2...I definitely have more invested in speakers than any other potion of my home theater
You can typically invest money in speakers and not think that they will be outdated in a short period of time as other portions of your home theater area
So..in theory...you feel safer investing more in them in the first place

I "get" that the A/V manufacturers want you to be in the market every year....well the Asian manufacturers anyway
But...for someone to have thousands of dollars of obsolete gear.....really?

You mention $900 for speakers
would those be of like quality for all your non Atmos material that you enjoy on the speakers you have thousands invested in?

Atmos would have to completely blow me away to even consider the investment I would have to remake


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post #166 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
So much negativity! What amazes me is that many people express opinion before even experiencing the ATMOS in a home theater!
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
That's the trend at AVS Forum lately.
agreed

make assumptions first.....based on limited information and perhaps the facts will follow later

At that point though opinions have already been made into fact

the other part..IMO...is people ignore the business 101 side of things
if XYZ company has been not making a profit on their A/V business it will most certainly effect their actions

ie....People making boo hoo commentary about Pioneer and Panasonic's TV exits and other products that just weren't profitable platforms
No surprises...their financial information was public knowledge


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post #167 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
you are skipping a lot of things in there from a practical standpoint
let me say up front I have not heard atmos and cant offer any real world opinion

However

Number 3 could easily be a deal breaker for some

The other part...as you mention the other parts that need to be replaced are the AVR/SSP and speakers

thats all......ok
the bulk of the expense for many resides there

and if you recently bought several thousand dollars of say AVR/SSP and speakers and now they all have to be replaced

that is a bitter pill

especially when speakers...which can be the most expensive portion of the home theater investment all total...are typically something that doesn't evolve much
As a total system of 5.2...I definitely have more invested in speakers than any other potion of my home theater
You can typically invest money in speakers and not think that they will be outdated in a short period of time as other portions of your home theater area
So..in theory...you feel safer investing more in them in the first place

I "get" that the A/V manufacturers want you to be in the market every year....well the Asian manufacturers anyway
But...for someone to have thousands of dollars of obsolete gear.....really?

You mention $900 for speakers
would those be of like quality for all your non Atmos material that you enjoy on the speakers you have thousands invested in?

Atmos would have to completely blow me away to even consider the investment I would have to remake


Warren
I you want the advancement in sound reproduction it offers, that of course it's up to you to spend the resources to achieve it at the level you want.

The bolded point is the gist of the conversation.... IMO it is a significant enough advnce that it's worth the capital to experience it at home..

They are creating something new that requires new processing and speakers... with no penalty to anybody who isn't interested in doing so.

Your comment about just spending all of this money for equipment that would need to be upgraded can be made about any kind of technology, just not HT gear....

What's the timeframe for acceptable upgrades to tech?

You seem to suffer from the same myopic view that this initial release is all that the tech has to offer.... that it's only for home theater, etc. This is the start of something much bigger...

It's not even been officially rolled out by Dolby... this press junket was to start getting the word out..

CEDIA has always been the time frame (I expected there would be content announcements before then, but know why that didn't happen... however, it doesn't change the fact CEDIA has been Dolby's goal for roll out since earlier this year... the CE's had to announce as the yearly model change comes in the summer months...)

So Dolby and DTS were supposed to do nothing for the future? Cap off at 7.1?

I'm glad they didn't....

I didn't mention 900 for speakers.. it's what you could spend for the Onkyo AVR and their modules if you want to get into Atmos cheap...

And again, nobody is suggesting replacing all your speakers... if you want to go ahead, but since only three modules have been announced so far, and CEDIA is still a month away, you shouldn't assume that every option has been announced...

If you want to at a later date, there should be plenty of quality options for ceiling or up-firing speakers available in short order.. why intimate that the add on modules would be used to reproduce other content is weird to me.

Nobody is forcing it down anyones throat.... I personally think it will be very popular, and although we are quick to dismiss HTIB and sound bars, I think that market will make the most inroads in the years to come..
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post #168 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post
I you want the advancement in sound reproduction it offers, that of course it's up to you to spend the resources to achieve it at the level you want...


Nobody is forcing it down anyones throat.... I personally think it will be very popular, and although we are quick to dismiss HTIB and sound bars, I think that market will make the most inroads in the years to come..
Fwiw, this sentiment is intriguing and I actually think the Home Theater market is going to smaller speakers with a/couple subs in multi-use (living rooms, dens and bedrooms.) spaces--Not very many people have the resources to have a Dedicated Home Theater but everyone has a (or multiple) TV and wants better sound than comes with their set--Not hard to improve on that.

I love watching movies but my main passion is Multichannel music--That said, definitely don't see many people in the real world that listen to that.
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post #169 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 06:17 PM
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Interesting, entertaining, informative thread.
If Atmos for home consumer use is not implemented to function with any speaker combination available ranging from sound bars to the full recommended speaker suite IMO it will be a virtually useless feature used by only a select few.
What is the number one complaint repeated over and over on all the audio forums?
Dialogue is hard to hear.
With object based audio encoding this problem could finally be fixed for everyone.
Hopefully the people driving the boat will allow a version of Atmos for the masses to be deployed.

Regards,
Charlie

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post #170 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post
DOA? I don't believe that will be the case. I agree with Marc (FilmMixer) the ability to implement object based data for specification presents near limitless possibilities. I liked what I heard and my feelings at the moment are that there is enough potential in Dolby Atmos to warrant an upgrade in my situation. As it stands right now I would look to implement it via ceiling mounted speakers. I plan on trying to get another listen to Dolby Atmos enabled speakers and see if things plays out any differently. Where things go after that will be determined by what I hear.


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post #171 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by chashint View Post
Interesting, entertaining, informative thread.
If Atmos for home consumer use is not implemented to function with any speaker combination available ranging from sound bars to the full recommended speaker suite IMO it will be a virtually useless feature used by only a select few.
What is the number one complaint repeated over and over on all the audio forums?
Dialogue is hard to hear.
With object based audio encoding this problem could finally be fixed for everyone.
Hopefully the people driving the boat will allow a version of Atmos for the masses to be deployed.
If Facebook can tweak how a user feels by customizing his news, I'm sure Dolby can make any combinations of the objected sounds to suit a good variety of tastes :-) It's a trivial maneuver to maintain backward compatibility, from the notion that sound wave is additive (minus the unknown room acoustics). Existing channel-based sounds, is like AB, CDE, AEFHJ ..... already mixed together. If you have A, B, C, D ... individually, it is straightforward to mix them, with certain timed coefficients to give the old traditional multi-channel sounds. I don't see anything revolutionary here about object-based sounds despite the marketing hypes. It probably took an average engineer a blink of an eye to think of it 20 years ago. It came down to technical convenience and the number of speakers that are intended to be individually manipulated. But, I don't see how dialogue can be enhanced by Atmos, probably worse due to increase of speakers in this case, except the expected heavenly sound coming from the top, given dialogue is likely already individually recorded?

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post #172 of 209 Old 08-17-2014, 10:54 PM
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Are there any open source Atmos codecs to try it from my 7.1 analog outs from my PC? Plus some sample material to test it with?

It should be fairly trivial to hook up the rears in my 7.1 setup to the ceiling, change it to a 5.1.2 instead of a 7.1 mixer setup in MPC-HC, then try it out and see if I like it.

Any links would be greatly appreciated. I plan on going separates with downfiring separate speakers but only from a 5.1.2 until next year when hopefully there are some decent Atmos options out there with full pre-outs that doesn't cost more than a grand. I'm fine with using a software decoder for testing purposes. Heck, who knows, it may even be superior. You can always daisy chain USB soundcards and multi-mix channels to get 22.2.4 or whatever crazy setup you can think of that way. The important part is the processing and the ability to route the appropriate data to each speaker.

btw, I agree with those who think it's idiotic to listen to those, who, having never even heard a technology, dismiss it out of hand. I saw an HDR projector (amongst many other incredible things) at Siggraph 2014 and I wasn't expecting to be that blown away, but I was.
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post #173 of 209 Old 08-18-2014, 03:03 AM
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This thread should be called: Why Audioholics is D.e.a.d!!
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post #174 of 209 Old 08-18-2014, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

Your comment about just spending all of this money for equipment that would need to be upgraded can be made about any kind of technology, just not HT gear....

.
I just left the most pertinent part of your reply here
The blanket statement about technology is not quite a practical one

This is not just like replacing an Ipad...a computer..or even a new TV
To me...and others may think differently
Sound is 50% of the home theater experience

Good sound(IMO) costs significantly more than good video

While some buy a $3K Tv and pair it with a $500 AVR... that set up quite honestly doesn't meet my sound expectations
I have what I guess you could call a Mid-Fi system that could be replaced with like components for $6-7K all total

As you said before...in the most simple of situations you have the choice to do nothing
Very true
OTOH...the $900 solution that was mentioned would not meet my sound expectations for non Atmos material
I was planning on buying an SSP this year...as you know from our back and forth on the MIA Yamaha pre/pro
So..no biggie on that count and my amp could stay as well
But the speaker investment...the largest one...is going to be a bitter pill

In the past...though these format changes in the last...a decade or even older speakers have been able to be utilized
Heck, a high end set of speakers that are 20 years old are still very relevant today

The other question for me would be
Will there be higher end speakers available.....will the say B&W, Golden ear and Thiel( to use some of may favorites) etc have product out there for this new format

Warren

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post #175 of 209 Old 08-18-2014, 05:10 AM
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Will there be higher end speakers available.....will the say B&W, Golden ear and Thiel( to use some of may favorites) etc have product out there for this new format

Warren
Not sure anyone knows. I just discovered several days ago that KEF is going to have an add-on module. Others may play wait & see.

It will be interesting to see how many get into the game. I would think at least one of your choices might. Some of the "audiophile" brands might be later while some of the HT oriented brands might be sooner, obviously.

Since Sandy Gross started DefTech, sold it, since he's now competing with DT and since DT is coming out with an add-on module, I wouldn't be surprised to see Golden Ear coming out with "something". I have no insider info at all to support that, just taking a wild guess.

I could also see Martin Logan doing something with their Motion speaker line. Also guessing

But yours is an excellent question...time will tell.

Steve
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post #176 of 209 Old 08-18-2014, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post



As you said before...in the most simple of situations you have the choice to do nothing
Very true
OTOH...the $900 solution that was mentioned would not meet my sound expectations for non Atmos material



Warren
If you haven't heard them how do you know they would not meet your expectations?
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post #177 of 209 Old 08-18-2014, 08:35 AM
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If you haven't heard them how do you know they would not meet your expectations?
At least one study has shown that the price of an item can make an objective, physiological difference in how much one enjoys it. MRI scans showed that people had different experiences for exactly the same wine, depending on what they were told about its price. I'm sure the same effect accounts for how people react to different audio electronics and speaker systems. The effect is commonly called "expectation bias" and "placebo effect" elsewhere on this forum.

The research paper is available at http://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.abstract
and a popularized summary is available at http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/news/res...baba_wine.html

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post #178 of 209 Old 08-18-2014, 08:36 AM
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I was thinking about this yesterday. How many of the Dolby and DTS formats have failed?

At the end of the day, Atmos is coming. A lot of people may choose not to go this route and that is fine. To be quite honest, I don't know a lot of people with a full surround sound setup, which is based on a casual observance of the many homes I enter for work. That includes a lot of expensive homes.

Eventually I see probably most people adopting the upfiring speaker solution, since it is the easiest. Those that go with ceiling speakers will probably be the ones with dedicated HTs.

One thing that shouldn't be forgotten and that is Atmos isn't going to brick your current audio set up or future one if you decide that you don't want ceiling/upfiring speakers. I feel like I need to say that, because some here almost have a sky is falling mentality.

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post #179 of 209 Old 08-18-2014, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
If you haven't heard them how do you know they would not meet your expectations?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
At least one study has shown that the price of an item can make an objective, physiological difference in how much one enjoys it. MRI scans showed that people had different experiences for exactly the same wine, depending on what they were told about its price. I'm sure the same effect accounts for how people react to different audio electronics and speaker systems. The effect is commonly called "expectation bias" and "placebo effect" elsewhere on this forum.

The research paper is available at http://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050.abstract
and a popularized summary is available at http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/news/res...baba_wine.html

good points...and there is probably a good deal of placebo involved...as well as subjectivity in any A/V product opinion

I have thousands invested in speakers/subs...and even then I bought them at more than 50% off retail

Based on what is on the market right now for a $900 set....they dont compare in any shape, form or fashion
Nor would I expect them to

I assume there are big price differences due to things like different drivers, sound technology investments, cases and manufacturing point

Do you think that they have changed speaker technology in the last 12 months so that I should expect a speaker to sound as good( or better) than one that is 5x the price?

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5508 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp Atlantic technology System 350 THX Ultra speakers
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Pioneer Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009/906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #180 of 209 Old 08-18-2014, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
good points...and there is probably a good deal of placebo involved...as well as subjectivity in any A/V product opinion

I have thousands invested in speakers/subs...and even then I bought them at more than 50% off retail

Based on what is on the market right now for a $900 set....they dont compare in any shape, form or fashion
Nor would I expect them to

I assume there are big price differences due to things like different drivers, sound technology investments, cases and manufacturing point

Do you think that they have changed speaker technology in the last 12 months so that I should expect a speaker to sound as good( or better) than one that is 5x the price?

Warren
Again, you are using an example I gave for a minimum cash out lay for someone wanting to upgrade to Atmos for a bargain system..

The $900 dollars you keep throwing around was for an entry level Onkyo receiver and the $249 pair atoms modules...

It was a counterpoint to the articles claim on how expensive Atmos was to implement.. no doubt my example is on the extreme low end.

I've no doubt that someone like you would want a higher end AVR/SSP for you setup...

However I'm not sure that a set (4) of these up firing Onkyo add on's would sound terrible for Atmos or Dolby Surround upmixing in your room.. with a majority of the sound still being reproduced by your mains, they might still blend in nicely... but I'm not sure you'll ever try it to find out.
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