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post #1 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Why dolby atmos is doa!!

First off, let me just say that I would like very much to be able to implement this Dolby Atmos system in my own existing 5.1 set up. However some of the reasons outlined in this article from Audioholics really summed it all up for me. Here are their top 5 reasons cited in the article.

The article goes into a brief explanation of each.

1) Atmos simply doesn't have enough Wow!
2) The only people that will buy Atmos speakers won't know what to do with them
3) You didn't buy height/width speakers but you'll hang them on your ceiling?
4) The speakers are stupid (refering to the top mount drivers)
5) It costs too much.

Here is the link http://www.audioholics.com/audio-tec...y-atmos-is-doa

I don't know how many people here truly feel regarding the advent of Dolby's Atmos system, but from reading this and other forums I believe the consensus is that it will not succeed.

Thoughts

Paul
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post #2 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 01:56 PM
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post #3 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 01:57 PM
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Sensationalist article from a site that never even listened to Atmos demo.

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post #4 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:01 PM
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7) There will be no titles released in the format.
8) Consumers won't install hundreds of speakers in their living rooms.
9) Being forced to use special upward-firing speakers = instant fail.
10) DTS. (need I say more?)
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post #5 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post
First off, let me just say that I would like very much to be able to implement this Dolby Atmos system in my own existing 5.1 set up. However some of the reasons outlined in this article from Audioholics really summed it all up for me. Here are their top 5 reasons cited in the article.

The article goes into a brief explanation of each.

1) Atmos simply doesn't have enough Wow!
2) The only people that will buy Atmos speakers won't know what to do with them
3) You didn't buy height/width speakers but you'll hang them on your ceiling?
4) The speakers are stupid (refering to the top mount drivers)
5) It costs too much.

Here is the link http://www.audioholics.com/audio-tec...y-atmos-is-doa

I don't know how many people here truly feel regarding the advent of Dolby's Atmos system, but from reading this and other forums I believe the consensus is that it will not succeed.

Thoughts

Paul
It's a fairly negative article that makes some good points. OK, many good points.

However, done right Atmos does work, and contrary to what that author claims, you can hear discreet height cues without much difficulty.

The biggest issue IMO concerns current 5.1 and 7.1 dedicated home theaters. The author says "Dolby is glossing over the fact that we already have our rear speakers fairly high up on the wall and instead assuming that they are at ear level." and that's something I found is true.

Since DTS owns such a huge share of the Blu-ray audio market, I'm curious if this will help Dolby make a comeback.

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post #6 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:09 PM
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I admit to be excited reading about it but the real value seems to be those that have dedicated Home Theaters and even those in the hobby seem to be more like me with systems in a multiuse room that really can't accommodate more speakers without some real thought put into it....
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post #7 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:13 PM
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I think it can be successful for a niche market, but I'm very skeptical that the ceiling-bounce speaker contraptions are going to work. I've never heard it, but I'd imagine that actual powered speakers up top would make for quite an amazing experience!
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post #8 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:18 PM
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The only way I'd be interested in ceiling speakers if they could be attached to plasterboard ceilings directly. I certainly not going to cut out holes. What speakers can be held up by plasterboard alone though, would Bose Jewel or similar be ok? (very light)

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post #9 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
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The only way I'd be interested in ceiling speakers if they could be attached to plasterboard ceilings directly. I certainly not going to cut out holes. What speakers can be held up by plasterboard alone though, would Bose Jewel or similar be ok? (very light)
It could possibly be the only thing that bose speakers might be useful for.

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post #10 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:40 PM
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Funny how much animus Atmos is drawing from people who have never heard it and are by no means obligated to buy it. It doesn't involve a format war, it has several options for height/ceiling (Atmos enabled speakers, add on modules, or in/on ceiling, 2-4 speakers), it doesn't require everything in your system to be replaced (same HDMI cables, same blu-ray player, same streaming device), and titles have already been mixed in it. Yet alone the up mixing feature.

Considering how many silly technologies have come out that were more involved and costly, I'm confounded. Wides/heights may not be common but don't drive people to froth at the mouths over their need for a new AVR and speakers ( with very particular recommendations for placement and in the case of wides floorspace). 3D was a dud but people were anxious about HDMI specs, pass through, new TV's or projectors, AVR's, and players. Heck, 4K is driving people crazy due to the likely HDCP 2.2 specs that are useless but will probably be required if/when 4K material becomes available.

Why the hate on Atmos? It's scalable, it will likely be included in most AVR's over the next few years, and if people don't want it, it doesn't negatively impact their system.
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post #11 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:50 PM
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I think that Atmos is going to be a hard sell to a lot of people. Most are not going to replace A/V receivers that they purchased in the last few years just to get Atmos.

There are many people that ARE in the market for a new receiver and will be more likely to purchase an Atmos enabled one than not, given the receivers are of similar price.

Not all Atmos enabled receivers are in the $2,000 range like the article mentions. I know Onkyo is coming out with some under $1,000 and I am sure next year there will be a few under $500.

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post #12 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 02:53 PM
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The above argument can also be made about Dolby Digital when it was first introduced...or about DTS when it was first introduced...or about DPL IIz when it was introduced...or about DTS Neo:X when it was introduced...or about Blu-ray player...heck...or any new technology for that matter.

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post #13 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Sensationalist article from a site that never even listened to Atmos demo.
+100

They've had a clear bias or at least opinion against home Atmos when it was just a rumor so they've just come out of the closet and made their "anti" Atmos stance official.

All of them, from Gene to Tom, would have a lot more credibility IF they actually went to one of the demos & actually reported in an online article about their experience that is was no big deal.

He did make some valid points, IMO, about the overall lack of knowledge how to setup HTIB & budget systems. Other than getting it into as many homes as possible, I think Atmos is a waste for the HTIB/soundbar market.

But for enthusiasts, I strongly disagree with his conclusion.

IMHO, the main deciding factor how well it succeeds or fails will be up to the studios not the shape of the speaker or the angle of the top driver. To me those are used to justify why their staff doesn't seem to want it to succeed.

For many, this will be a hard/harder sell with cost, new speaker choices and/or installation, replacing gear they bought recently. But isn't that true of every new technology, especially lately? This is nothing specific to Atmos. Some will eagerly be early adopters if circumstances & their money can support it. Others may never have an interest or will wait a few years.

I can accept cautions and concerns but I don't accept the eagerness to pronounce it dead before it gets out of the gate.

As much as I respect what Gene has done with Audioholics, this smacks of an agenda they've had starting with the rumor phase up to & including Pioneer's speakers, which they've made no bones about not liking. For an objective review site, to come out so strongly against the speakers and the format w/o hearing & testing them is not very objective at all!

And let's go one step further, while they've never AFAIK, posted negative reviews of Pioneer gear, they've not really embraced Pioneer either. They have a clear implied and sometimes openly stated "preference" for D&M, Yamaha & Emotiva products. They don't happen to be an authorized Pioneer Elite dealer either but are dealers for Denon & Yamaha.

That's my take. I think Tom Andry has some valid points but his overall conclusion is way premature with no objective data to support it.

It's just his subjective opinion.

Steve

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post #14 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 03:24 PM
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I for one have little interest in Atmos based on my theater experience. I just bought a new processor instead of waiting for a new one with Atmos capability. I am using a dedicated room for my HT, but I also have a ceiling fan which takes the reflecting speakers off the table and would require me to go ceiling mounted. Additionally, I would have to buy more amps which I just don't have the space for. For what I have heard in the theater, nothing has made think that Atmos is going to be a must do.
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post #15 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
The above argument can also be made about Dolby Digital when it was first introduced...or about DTS when it was first introduced...or about DPL IIz when it was introduced...or about DTS Neo:X when it was introduced...or about Blu-ray player...heck...or any new technology for that matter.
And arguably each of those is pretty much a niche product except perhaps the Blu-ray player itself. It is commonly acknowledged that surround sound never really captured the public imagination the way HD and flat screens did.

I've heard Atmos and I like it. But I have waited for two decades for home surround to really take off, and somehow I doubt Atmos will change the equation... especially not since Atmos soundtracks will still be backward compatible. That is bound to cause confusion... I can hear it now: "It plays, why do I need a new AVR and speakers?" I am glad it will be supported, I plan to buy into it. But I have no illusions that it will be a slam-dunk success at home.

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post #16 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 03:37 PM
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I share the sentiments that Atmos is not a slam dunk. I've made a "DOA" statement once...on Kaleidescape. Is it a huge success? Well, it's huge enough to have the company to still be around for quite a number of years

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post #17 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 03:41 PM
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I know Onkyo is coming out with some under $1,000 and I am sure next year there will be a few under $500.
Already pretty close: http://amzn.com/B00IQ0SE22

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post #18 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 03:43 PM
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I normally only upgrade when something fails, or something so great comes along that I just have to have it. My last receiver upgrade was mainly just to get hdmi switching and get rid of the mess of component cables from behind my system. Judging from the impressions of the others on the forum, as of right now money will be the only thing limiting me from getting Atmos when it first comes out.

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post #19 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
It's a fairly negative article that makes some good points...However, done right Atmos does work, and contrary to what that author claims, you can hear discreet height cues without much difficulty.

Since DTS owns such a huge share of the Blu-ray audio market, I'm curious if this will help Dolby make a comeback.
The difference between you & the article is you have heard it and found it works. You are being objective. Mark, I've read many of your posts, announcements, mini-reviews, interviews w/Scott and find you to generally be very objective in your comments. I may not always agree with you but I respect your knowledge of the technology & objectivity. From what I can see, you've based your opinions on video display technologies on real life experiences & demos.

OTOH, unless Tom Andry has also heard it, then his opinion that it doesn't do much has zero weight. And if he has heard an Atmos demo for the home, then he should write up a review of the experience and say why he didn't think much of it. Otherwise, his opinion isn't worth much.

No doubt, a major motivation behind Dolby Atmos is for them to gain back lost ground. That doesn't mean the technology isn't valid or isn't an improvement in the home experience.

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post #20 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 03:55 PM
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The reason I bought my SC-75 back in October 2013 is BECAUSE I know Atmos is coming, HDMI 2.0 is coming, HDCP 2.2 is coming in 2014. I know the implementation of all three can't be perfect the first time around (just like the first implementation of AC-3, HDMI and HDCP) and I know once Dolby releases something DTS will follow suit (that's just an assumption based on historical releases of DTS technologies). So instead of buying into the latest and greatest, I just buy into "yesterday" technology. cheap bastard!
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post #21 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 04:03 PM
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post #22 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Susilo View Post
Sensationalist article from a site that never even listened to Atmos demo.
Not only that; but Audioholics is the only authority that truly matters in all things audiophile.
They listen to their forum members with total dedication and addiction.

They should be fully trusted. I have total confidence in their superb team of audio experts and electrical engineers. It's a fun place to hang around when you want to learn something different.

Dolby Atmos; what do they truly know about it. ...Just checking their video is a good indication; not much @ all. But that's the way they like doing things; with zest and detachment first.
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post #23 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hidefpaul View Post
...

I don't know how many people here truly feel regarding the advent of Dolby's Atmos system, but from reading this and other forums I believe the consensus is that it will not succeed.

Thoughts

Paul
Maybe audioholics article should be appealing to the lowest common denominator of the average Joe Consumer (Reason 5) and his flat screen TV speakers? After all, there is noise/sound coming out of the TV - correct? Joe thinks he can make out what's being said if he turns up the volume up enough/leans forward and tilts his head from side to side..

Audioholics might as well have written the article and said that stereo as well as other advanced sound formats are going in the direction of the dodo and these also wouldn't matter to the average Joe?

If average Joe is oblivious and happy with TV speakers, then Dolby Atmos wont matter and will most likely be DOA. But this is AVS and the average Joe is being encouraged/educated that he can do/be better! Joe just needs to go and have a listen to compare the difference between his TV speakers and the Atmos 7.1.4 system.
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post #24 of 209 Old 08-14-2014, 09:04 PM
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For someone that is lucky enough to have a dedicated HT room it can be done properly. But for most consumers who have multi use rooms just not practical. Personally my room is small and 5.1 is as big as I can get. This will appeal to a niche market that has the funds and proper room to do this correctly. But it won't surprise me when someone tries to shoe horn 11 speakers and a sub in a 12x16 room.
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post #25 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
+100


All of them, from Gene to Tom, would have a lot more credibility IF they actually went to one of the demos & actually reported in an online article about their experience that is was no big deal.


The demos do not represent the real world. No one is going to be able to give a credible evaluation of a home Atmos system until the Atmos AVRs are widely available and Atmos encoded content is widely available.


Perhaps more important than new Atmos content is how well does the Dolby Atmos surround upmixer work for existing content? If the surround upmixer does not produce decent "fake" Atmos surround sound, then perhaps Atmos is going to be a hard sell. Most people will not get rid of an existing working AVR and replace it with Atmos solely because Atmos exists. Early adopters are a special bunch of consumers, and they just buy whatever is new.


I for one will not be updating my DVD and Bluray collection if and when any of those existing soundtracks are ever remixed in Atmos (highly doubtful). Come to think of it being that Atmos receivers are new, my AVR update has been pushed out a few years. I have never been an early adopter of new formats. Based on my past history, it will be three or four years before I am ready to think about buying a new AVR.


Kind of interesting factoid, I own a 3D TV and a 3D Bluray player, yet I have never watched a 3D movie on my system.
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post #26 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:02 AM
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11/ While installing speakers for Atmos, Audioholics' staff misses one hour in the gim. You gotta have priorities
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post #27 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 01:17 AM
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What about these for ceiling speakers... http://www.feonic.com/technology

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post #28 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post
The demos do not represent the real world.
but judging the format after a demo is better than judging it after...no demo at all

that is the point. Andry's statement

"Atmos simply doesn't have enough Wow!"

is groundless, not based on personal observation & without merit until he has heard it himself in any setting, real world or optimized.

I'm also ambivalent to 3D but at least I went to several SOTA 3D demos before arriving at my conclusion

Audioholics' supposed objectivity went down the toilet with Tom Andry's article. It's an opinion piece, period, no different than our rantings on this forum
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post #29 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post
11/ While installing speakers for Atmos, Audioholics' staff misses one hour in the gim. You gotta have priorities
Too much lugging around subs and power amps Erwin Maybe dolby should make more noise about the new better dolby surround algorithms that have replaced pl2 and pl2z . It may end up a niche but it's a niche that has more appeal than a single upmixer like dts neox with both it's applications [ who here won't want to hear what a good 7.1 truehd bd will sound like upmixed - and not have to double dip ]. .

Not to mention its something that should be encouraged as it has potential with better rendering to suit many more diverse speaker positions If that isn't available even now with some of the upmarket efforts from datasat;storm audio etc
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post #30 of 209 Old 08-15-2014, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post
but judging the format after a demo is better than judging it after...no demo at all
...
Audioholics' supposed objectivity went down the toilet with Tom Andry's article. It's an opinion piece, period, no different than our rantings on this forum
If audioholics.com site keeps up with this foolishness, maybe the place needs to be renamed as audiophools.com?

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