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-   -   Where are all the affordable slimline receivers?! (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1645089-where-all-affordable-slimline-receivers.html)

RuralWaves 08-15-2014 06:05 AM

Where are all the affordable slimline receivers?!
 
I have been searching for an inexpensive slimline receiver with HDMI inputs and either stereo or 5.1 sound, and there's almost nothing out there.

The Marantz or Cambridge Audio slimlines are overpriced since I'm not an audiophile and only want to tie a smart Blu-Ray together with a cable or dish box and have 1 remote to rule them all (hopefully the dish remote will be programmable enough to be universal).

I don't want to just get one of those Home Theater In A Box with the surround sound and DVD player together, because none of them has all the apps I want (settled on a LG model of stand-alone player).

Here's what I found so far in the price range and feature criteria, but I'm worried about a brand I'd never heard of before:

Sherwood R-904N Netboxx Internet 7.1 Channel A/V Receiver
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16886928001

I refuse to reward these companies for not listening to consumers and still offering ONLY a 50-year-old form factor. If I wanted to have 3 billion RCA jacks on a 25 pound box that takes up all the shelf space in my furniture, I would dust off the 20-year-old Onkyo receiver I've got in storage.

I currently have an HTPC running Windows7 and WMC, but it's an energy hog, it doesn't have a cable card so most of my programming isn't HD (although I pay for it), and Windows isn't supporting WMC so apps like Netflix haven't worked right for years and the DVR isn't recording programs predictably anymore, which was the last straw for my wife.

Time to get a dish w/ DVR, different ISP, smart Blu-Ray for my streaming apps, and a receiver to tie them together with a single remote. At least I THINK that's the best option now...

Please help if you know affordable slimline receivers with HDMI inputs. Thank you!

deewan 08-15-2014 09:59 AM

While I understand your complaint and I feel your pain, I don't think your comment about rewarding companies for not listening to consumers is accurate. While you may have a need for this item, from a general population standpoint there is very little demand for an item like this and that is why Marantz and Cambridge are the only two companies who have created units. Almost everyone looking for a slim design is more than happy with a HTiB. If you want more options and power, then they step up to a full AVR and size is normally not a factor.

The Marantz SR1403 is certainly not expensive when you look at the power and features it supplies. MSRP of $399 and can be purchased for about $330 or less from authorized dealers. It's not $200, but it's also not from Wal-Mart.

vzphoneman 08-15-2014 03:01 PM

I agree with Dee on the Marantz. I've had a 1501 for 3-4 years for my living room and have been very happy with it.

deewan 08-15-2014 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuralWaves (Post 26585489)
Please help if you know affordable slimline receivers with HDMI inputs. Thank you!

BTW. If you decide on a new Marantz and want a deal, send me a PM.

RuralWaves 08-15-2014 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deewan (Post 26591081)
While you may have a need for this item, from a general population standpoint there is very little demand for an item like this

Where is the exhaustive market research to support this assertion?

The AV Receiver form factor is a sad dinosaur watching all other consumer electronics streamlining features to conform to consumer demand and miniaturization expectation as it stays the same. Its 50-year-old form factor should have evolved to serve the mass market a decade ago. I would say it seems to be the evolutionary equivalent of the horseshoe crab, but whereas the crab has shown how elegant simplicity can adapt to all changes, the AVR has done the opposite: Adding more useless bells and whistles at every turn and getting larger and bulkier as it keeps its legacy vestiges. The dinosaurs did this too, and when the landscape changed, they couldn't, leaving the door wide open for smaller, more agile animals to take over the world. I hope marketers also see the opportunity for slimlines to take over the AVR world soon, since I'm in the market now.

And to demonstrate that I'm not just some narcissist who thinks an industry should bow to my whim, here's an article titled "How to save the AV receiver," from a popular electronics media outlet, with myriad internet commenters who feel passionately enough about the issue to let their opinions be known: http://www.cnet.com/news/how-to-save-the-av-receiver/

Quote:

Originally Posted by deewan (Post 26591081)
The Marantz SR1403 is certainly not expensive when you look at the power and features it supplies.

As mentioned in the thread starter, I am not looking for "power and features".

I am looking for a hub to connect my smart BD player and dish receiver box to via HDMI and then output to my TV. It will drive low-end stereo or 5.1 speakers so I can have 1 audio volume, source switch, and universal remote (hopefully the one that comes with the dish box or the receiver).

It's very simple, shouldn't be any more expensive than the typical Home Theater In a Box (under $200), but I don't want the usual HTIB's built in DVD player nor its typical lack of HDMI inputs. (Also have had bad experiences with these DVD drives breaking before the audio driving part of the unit, and I want better apps selection than what I've seen in HTIBs by getting a stand alone unit).

I do not want audiophile sound quality, nor its expense. It's mostly just TV we're talking about here. If my spouse's Real Housewives' voices come in any more clearly, I'll barf.

I do not care about web or blue tooth connectivity. If I want to play music, movies, photos, other files, the BD player will do this through DLNA from my NAS.

I have zero want or need for 10 vertical inches of RCA ports and banana plugs and optical audio lines, all for speakers and components I don't have and don't want.

I don't want to hear giant relays slamming closed and see the lights flicker when I turn on the TV sound. No need for enormous capacitors to buzz and crackle the night away if I forget to turn it off.

Just looking for a slimline to unobtrusively fit into the furniture, be a lower-powered energy sipper, and for a reasonable price (under $250).

deewan 08-15-2014 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuralWaves (Post 26601321)
Where is the exhaustive market research to support this assertion?

The AV Receiver form factor is a sad dinosaur watching all other consumer electronics streamlining features to conform to consumer demand and miniaturization expectation as it stays the same. Its 50-year-old form factor should have evolved to serve the mass market a decade ago. I would say it seems to be the evolutionary equivalent of the horseshoe crab, but whereas the crab has shown how elegant simplicity can adapt to all changes, the AVR has done the opposite: Adding more useless bells and whistles at every turn and getting larger and bulkier as it keeps its legacy vestiges. The dinosaurs did this too, and when the landscape changed, they couldn't, leaving the door wide open for smaller, more agile animals to take over the world. I hope marketers also see the opportunity for slimlines to take over the AVR world soon, since I'm in the market now.

And to demonstrate that I'm not just some narcissist who thinks an industry should bow to my whim, here's an article titled "How to save the AV receiver," from a popular electronics media outlet, with myriad internet commenters who feel passionately enough about the issue to let their opinions be known: http://www.cnet.com/news/how-to-save-the-av-receiver/



As mentioned in the thread starter, I am not looking for "power and features".

I am looking for a hub to connect my smart BD player and dish receiver box to via HDMI and then output to my TV. It will drive low-end stereo or 5.1 speakers so I can have 1 audio volume, source switch, and universal remote (hopefully the one that comes with the dish box or the receiver).

It's very simple, shouldn't be any more expensive than the typical Home Theater In a Box (under $200), but I don't want the usual HTIB's built in DVD player nor its typical lack of HDMI inputs. (Also have had bad experiences with these DVD drives breaking before the audio driving part of the unit, and I want better apps selection than what I've seen in HTIBs by getting a stand alone unit).

I do not want audiophile sound quality, nor its expense. It's mostly just TV we're talking about here. If my spouse's Real Housewives' voices come in any more clearly, I'll barf.

I do not care about web or blue tooth connectivity. If I want to play music, movies, photos, other files, the BD player will do this through DLNA from my NAS.

I have zero want or need for 10 vertical inches of RCA ports and banana plugs and optical audio lines, all for speakers and components I don't have and don't want.

I don't want to hear giant relays slamming closed and see the lights flicker when I turn on the TV sound. No need for enormous capacitors to buzz and crackle the night away if I forget to turn it off.

Just looking for a slimline to unobtrusively fit into the furniture, be a lower-powered energy sipper, and for a reasonable price (under $250).

No market research needed. If there is a large demand for it, any electronics company wishing to turn a profit would make that product. So you and cnet are either sitting on a gold mine and you need to patent the idea ASAP, or there is only a fraction of a percent demand for it, which is why the product doesn't exist.

And again, you want a product for under $250. So the Marantz Slimline AVR for roughly $330 is just too rich for all these people who want slim AVR's? It's too bad $80 separates all this market share from a great product from Marantz.

BTW, did you seriously compare the extinction of the dinosaurs to a multi-million dollar technology and suggest if the AVR doesn't decrease in height it will die off? (and, we need to forget Marantz and Cambridge have these device... just not under your $250 price demand) I simply don't see that happening, EVER!

deewan 08-15-2014 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuralWaves (Post 26601321)
I have zero want or need for 10 vertical inches of RCA ports and banana plugs and optical audio lines, all for speakers and components I don't have and don't want.

Also, WHAT AVR are you looking at that is 10 vertical inches tall? :confused: Some of the larger pre/pro's are less than 7.5 tall.

afrogt 08-15-2014 04:30 PM

so you want something that's cheap, slimline but doesn't really sound that good? Home Theater In a Box has that covered.

Maybe this will satisfy you? Although it has pretty good sound quality.

Marantz NR1402 refurb. $249
http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html


Or if you want to use your TV as a switcher then all you need it something like this for $25 - $30. And you can connect a pair of speakers to it.
http://www.parts-express.com/lepai-l...upply--310-300
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...5-wpc--300-380

RuralWaves 08-15-2014 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deewan (Post 26601769)
No market research needed. If there is a large demand for it, any electronics company wishing to turn a profit would make that product.

That certainly is not how markets work in practice. They are not perfectly efficient, not even close. Many popular consumer demands go unmet. In fact, I already linked to a slimline receiver that meets my criteria, including my pricepoint, in the thread start. So the product exists. But I'm not familiar with the brand, and thought I'd check here for other examples or solutions. So far they have not presented themselves.

M Code 08-15-2014 06:00 PM

The answer is obvious...
Limited demand....
To design/tool/build an AVR costs alot of $, in excess of $1,000,000...
Thats the reason typically 3-4 models come out of each AVR tooling, with each model having slightly different features such as more HDMI inputs/outputs, more power output, more DSP features..
1 thing to consider for a slim-line AVR is that its internal PCBs, circuitry and amplifiers are packed in tighter as well, which will decrease productivity, but increasing its manufacturing costs..
Since we did the original product development for Marantz many years back for their slim-line receivers, we know something about this category.. :)

IMHO..
There have been some other slim-line AVRs..
The Panasonic XR series which was totally designed by TI did sell in significant quantities > 125K...
Another slim-line AVR was the Sherwood 904 which also was designed by TI but had some video issues. The only 1 high performance/feature/power output AVR that sold in significant quantities was the HK DPR series (1005/2005) whose Class D amplifier module was actually THX certified.

Just my $0.03... ;)

deewan 08-15-2014 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuralWaves (Post 26603313)
Apparently you didn't read a single thing I wrote past the headline. None of your suggestions meets my criteria, which were spelled out in detail for those who bother to read.

This morning before work, after I wrote the thread I told my wife that maybe someone would have a good idea to meet our needs. Then I said 'Well, what will probably happen is a bunch of internet commenters won't make it past the first sentence before screaming "I SHOULD WRITE A BUNCH OF STUFF BECAUSE I'M SO KNOWLEDGEABLE!"' You nailed it.

This is why I usually do my own research, but thought I'd give AVS a shot because they sent me an email last night with a link to a thread about receivers. I know, it's not like I'm paying for expertise.

You admit you have found a product that meets your low standards, just buy it then! Don't come to a forum based on quality products and complain that there is not a sub-$200 tiny black box that is a hdmi switch with a cheap 5 channel amp. Again, if you think you have such a great idea that fills a void in a failing market and will benefit that masses, make it yourself, earn millions of dollars, and then come back and rub it in my face.

Since you do your own research, why come to a forum to ask opinions about low grade equipment? Using your own research I'm sure you can figure out why the product you desire exists only at Wal-Mart and gets no respect on AVSForum.
:eek:

afrogt 08-15-2014 06:11 PM

Here are some links and reviews of the Netboxx you referenced in your first thread. it was reviewed as far back as 2009.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...er-r-904n.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...4n-review.html

RuralWaves 08-15-2014 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afrogt (Post 26604073)
Here are some links and reviews of the Netboxx you referenced in your first thread. it was reviewed as far back as 2009.

Thanks for the links. I hope they've got the kinks worked out over the last 3 years...

grasshoppers 08-15-2014 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuralWaves (Post 26605105)
Thanks for the links. I hope they've got the kinks worked out over the last 3 years...

I wouldn't bet on it....especially if it's on
Close out/clearance from Wallyworld.;)

Save yourself some grief and frustration and
Just Pony up and get the Marantz unit linked
Above.

Who knows..maybe you will become a
"Real Housewives" fan!:D

RuralWaves 08-15-2014 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code (Post 26603897)
The answer is obvious... Limited demand....

I don't think so. Demand is so often NOT what drives features and products that whole books have been written on the subject. Too often, "Shut up and take my money!" just isn't enough for market makers.

From autos to fashion to electronics, products that nobody asked for are pushed into the market place and products so many people would purchase never arrive. Demand has so little to do with Supply sometimes as to make the Consumer wonder what is wrong with the Producer. As Henry Ford would've told me a hundred years ago, as I assumed I was not the only consumer who Demanded a car in a color other than black: "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black". (I guess he wasn't obeying the "law" of supply and demand either, eh?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code (Post 26603897)
1 thing to consider for a slim-line AVR is that its internal PCBs, circuitry and amplifiers are packed in tighter as well...

Yes. I work in engineering in manufacturing. I understand form factors and chassis, and how they can be merely slightly modified across product lines.

Thing is, most of these AVR MFRs also offer Home Theater In a Box products with small/slim FFs. These could easily have a new front bezels and back plates designed, yank out the DVD drive and reclaim its space, and use the slimline chassis as a platform to add a few HDMI inputs and a 2.1 or 5.1 speaker driver with a self-powered sub woofer.

This would be easy and cost effective for any decent MFR.

It's not about cost. It's not about engineering difficulty. It's not about "demand". It's about marketing teams trying to create shiny new baubles like "sound bars" that they can charge way more than should be while ignoring obvious markets because there will be fewer oohs and aahs from Accounting and Management in the conference room for proposing simple tools that many customers want.

Markets aren't efficient, they're ridiculous. Like the people who make them.

M Code 08-15-2014 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuralWaves (Post 26605729)
I don't think so. Demand is so often NOT what drives features and products that whole books have been written on the subject. Too often, "Shut up and take my money!" just isn't enough for market makers.

From autos to fashion to electronics, products that nobody asked for are pushed into the market place and products so many people would purchase never arrive. Demand has so little to do with Supply sometimes as to make the Consumer wonder what is wrong with the Producer. As Henry Ford would've told me a hundred years ago, as I assumed I was not the only consumer who Demanded a car in a color other than black: "Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black". (I guess he wasn't obeying the "law" of supply and demand either, eh?)

Lets keep the discussion on track with CE products instead of autos and/or fashion..
The AVR market is controlled by just a handful of brands and the majority of these are losing $... :eek:
Therefore available $ to invest into new products and/or tooling/new product development is scarce...
Also the new product planning decisions are made thousands of miles away in the Far East not North America..
Even though North America is the largest global market in terms of spendable income $ it is the least profitable...
Thats why the CE brands are emphasizing their sales/marketing efforts into the bric countries such as Brazil, Russia, India, and China.. Here is the same strategy as the auto brands are following... :cool:


Quote:

Yes. I work in engineering in manufacturing. I understand form factors and chassis, and how they can be merely slightly modified across product lines.

Thing is, most of these AVR MFRs also offer Home Theater In a Box products with small/slim FFs. These could easily have a new front bezels and back plates designed, yank out the DVD drive and reclaim its space, and use the slimline chassis as a platform to add a few HDMI inputs and a 2.1 or 5.1 speaker driver with a self-powered sub woofer.
U are oversimplifying the AVR design process... :rolleyes:
Try putting an HD video processor, HD audio processor, hi speed connectivity processor, 7 channels of high power (>75W RMS) Class D amplifiers, and PWM power supply into a compact package...
This presents major challenges for each circuit to keep its signal path kleen and uncorrupted.. Yes, its possible but requires more expensive shielding and costly internal components.

Quote:

This would be easy and cost effective for any decent MFR.
Here again U are way off-base....

Quote:

It's not about cost. It's not about engineering difficulty. It's not about "demand". It's about marketing teams trying to create shiny new baubles like "sound bars" that they can charge way more than should be while ignoring obvious markets because there will be fewer oohs and aahs from Accounting and Management in the conference room for proposing simple tools that many customers want.
Markets aren't efficient, they're ridiculous. Like the people who make them.
Again U are incorrect..
Yes... It is about cost and return on investment..
It doesn't matter if the CE corporation is based in the USA and/or Far East they face similar financial challenges. They will not make major financial investments without being assured and confident of a respectable payback on their investment.

If U are so confident that U have the right idea for sucess, why not contact some of the major CE brands for their confirmation. Once done, please post back your results..

Just my $0.03... ;)

RuralWaves 08-15-2014 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Code (Post 26606553)
U are oversimplifying the AVR design process... :rolleyes:
Try putting an HD video processor, HD audio processor, hi speed connectivity processor, 7 channels of high power (>75W RMS) Class D amplifiers, and PWM power supply into a compact package...
This presents major challenges for each circuit to keep its signal path kleen and uncorrupted.. Yes, its possible but requires more expensive shielding and costly internal components.

What a goof.

Apparently, to take a Home Theater In a Box (at $200), which already has 5.1 or 7.1 sound, then removing its DVD drive and adding in 3 HDMI inputs (and still charging $200 for it) is the same as asking for the box to fly you to the moon and back.

With thinking like yours running product development, no wonder you say every AV division is a money loser.

BIslander 08-16-2014 04:10 AM

RuralWaves. - If your point in posting was to determine (a) whether the one slimline model in your price range is any good, or (b) if there are any other models in your price range, then you have your answers. For both, it appears to be "no". However, the option to get a refurbished Marantz at accessories4kess hits your price point.

Why do you believe there's significant demand for slimline receivers? I rarely see such requests on this or other forums.

RuralWaves 08-16-2014 06:44 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander (Post 26610561)
Why do you believe there's significant demand for slimline receivers? I rarely see such requests on this or other forums.

How often do you see requests for 50-year-old technology wrapped in a bloated form factor that weighs enough to sag a bookshelf; Offers an I/O panel 90% of which 90% of consumers will never use; And due to poor design intent will license and provide features so few consumers care about, yet still have to charge for them, thus making the unit overpriced and underserving the mass-market segment it was created for?

If you ask 100 consumers if they'd like a simple solution to connect their DVD and cable boxes and TV to a universal-remote-controllable audio source with 1 or 2 cords, and the source would be Energy Star rated and not some giant glaring box, you would find there is interest (vs. all the cords and buttons and components and expense of 50-year-old form factored AV racks).

Basically, if the average $200 HTiBs offered a couple HDMI inputs, they would serve a vast market segment that exists between HTiB/Soundbar and Unsightly Dinosaur Box.

I made an infographic for you and any AVR marketers who may be reading, hopefully this will illustrate the money you're leaving on the table.

(Edited To Add: Here's a link to see all those comments you've missed about how the AVR isn't serving consumer demand. http://www.cnet.com/news/how-to-save-the-av-receiver/ )

fatbottom 08-16-2014 06:58 AM

You mean you don't need all these?

http://www2.aerne.com/Public/dok-sw.nsf/0c6187bc750a16fcc1256e3c005a9740/c8afe5535be7773dc1257169006da8e3/$FILE/AVC-A1XVA_hinten.jpg

RuralWaves 08-16-2014 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatbottom (Post 26611737)
You mean you don't need all these?

http://www2.aerne.com/Public/dok-sw.nsf/0c6187bc750a16fcc1256e3c005a9740/c8afe5535be7773dc1257169006da8e3/$FILE/AVC-A1XVA_hinten.jpg

Must accommodate my 4 VCRs!

FMW 08-16-2014 08:37 AM

"Where are all the affordable slimline receivers?!"

Spending the weekend at the Holiday Inn in Pittsburgh.

Kpt_Krunch 08-16-2014 09:50 AM

Rural waves - just buy the Sherwood and be happy. Why all the grief? And for the price, it's a throw away, you probably spend more money on a nice night out with your wife for dinner and drinks - and you know where that food and drink ends up going in 4 to 24 hours right? What's the big deal?

BIslander 08-16-2014 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuralWaves (Post 26611625)
How often do you see requests for 50-year-old technology wrapped in a bloated form factor that weighs enough to sag a bookshelf; Offers an I/O panel 90% of which 90% of consumers will never use; And due to poor design intent will license and provide features so few consumers care about, yet still have to charge for them, thus making the unit overpriced and underserving the mass-market segment it was created for?

I see them ask all the time. Countless numbers of posters come to forums like this one asking for information about purchasing such devices. They rarely come here asking for low profile models.

But, it would appear your purpose here is to rail about the lack of a product that you want at what is apparently an unrealistically low price. You dismiss thoughtful posts explaining why you can't find such devices at your preferred price point, electing to loudly rant rather than engage in meaningful discussion.

And the author of the Cnet article you linked says receivers don't need all those inputs since people can use their TVs to do the source switching. Guess he doesn't know that most TVs are limited to stereo when switching external audio sources.

RuralWaves 08-16-2014 11:46 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander (Post 26615097)
it would appear your purpose here is to rail about the lack of a product that you want at what is apparently an unrealistically low price.

I already found it. At a price I find reasonable for being a slimline 2.1-5.1+ remote-controllable HDMI switch. It already exists. Repeat: It's a product on the market for sale at an appropriate pricepoint for the features it offers.

One last time: What I started this thread about, which was wondering if there were any more of these types of products on the market at similar price points, well I had already found one of those products to predicate my question on.

Apparently there are no others, as that was my question. Good to know. But I did receive a lot of posts about how it's impossible to even manufacture a product that fits my criteria, even though I already found an example of said product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIslander (Post 26615097)
You dismiss thoughtful posts

I believe the word your looking for is "thoughtless".

Especially the lengthy post about how North America is a worthless market to AV monopolists, and now they only want to provide features that emerging markets want (which is completely different from what North Americans want). They never have enough money to invest in product line retooling anyway, so don't ever expect to see new AV products, like the radical change of adding 2 HDMI inputs to a HTiB. Regardless, adding HDMI inputs to a HTiB at HTiB pricepoints is not even humanly possible. Just analog inputs are humanly possible. Unless you're talking about the Sherwood box, but that doesn't count because you can buy it at WalMart, which means it can't be discussed on this AV forum, except when it was in the past.

I didn't realize asking a stereo question was going to get so weird.

fatbottom 08-16-2014 02:33 PM

I understand not wanting mass load of inputs, however things like proper binding posts, multiple HDMI input, coaxial, optical, a few RCA take up space. Factor in at least 5 amplifiers, a power supply, cooling, video scaling board, DSP board- all take up space.

The only system I'm aware of in a compact unit is Arcam solo range. Audiolab are pretty slimline, but they don't have a complete system in the same chassis height. And even then with only two amps with limited heatsinks they run a bit hot, so do the components.

I wouldn't mind fitting a cool running slim av amp in between the computer desk shelving, my 671 is on a hifi rack to one side. However I'm not ready to compromise on connectivity or crappy spring clips to get what I want.

Luke M 08-16-2014 04:19 PM

The cnet editorial that was linked to above is on the mark. Receivers are terrible products designed to attract first-time buyers who don't know what they need.

Here's my dream "receiver", maybe someone can tell me if it exists:
* multiple optical/coax digital audio inputs, PCM/DD/DTS
* all inputs active at all times (yes, mixed together!), no switching
* always on, low power standby
* digital volume control
* two amps, sub output
* compact, power efficient, low cost

M Code 08-17-2014 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RuralWaves (Post 26607625)
What a goof.

Apparently, to take a Home Theater In a Box (at $200), which already has 5.1 or 7.1 sound, then removing its DVD drive and adding in 3 HDMI inputs (and still charging $200 for it) is the same as asking for the box to fly you to the moon and back.

With thinking like yours running product development, no wonder you say every AV division is a money loser.


U may be an engineer but U are totally naive about consumer product marketing...
Entry level products be it a Toyota Corolla, Samsung Galaxy phone, $0.99 double-cheese burger or $199 AVR have NO profit contribution.... Its only purpose is to entice the shopper to buy a step-up product which in fact does have a $ profit contribution ...

An excellent example in CE electronics is the category of smart phones of Apple's iPhone vs. Samsung's Galaxy..

Here is a quote for this subject from the latest research by IDC..
"The iPhone remains the most expensive smartphone, with an estimated average selling price this year of $649, more than double the average price of $247 for Android phones, Samsung's mainstay products, according to IDC. Average selling prices of iPhones will drop only 6 percent to $610 by 2018, while Android prices will decline 18 percent to $202, according to those IDC forecasts."

Here is the link...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A3806J20140409

The average iPhone sells for 2.5X that of a Samsung Galaxy. Next check out the profits of Samsung vs. Apple..
Selling product in large quantities without any significant $ profit contribution may gain market share but adds Nada to their respective bottom line.

Bottom line..
Your hypothesis about selling a slim-line AVR for $199 as a lost opportunity may make sense to U but has no relevance with the major CE brands. Why should they lose more $... :rolleyes:

Just my $0.03... ;)

afrogt 08-17-2014 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke M (Post 26623281)
The cnet editorial that was linked to above is on the mark. Receivers are terrible products designed to attract first-time buyers who don't know what they need.

Here's my dream "receiver", maybe someone can tell me if it exists:
* multiple optical/coax digital audio inputs, PCM/DD/DTS
* all inputs active at all times (yes, mixed together!), no switching
* always on, low power standby
* digital volume control
* two amps, sub output
* compact, power efficient, low cost

You didn't mention any HDMI inputs. You're okay with leaving those out?

and how much is your low cost limit?

buzzy_ 08-17-2014 04:18 PM

The idea has been tested in the market. As noted briefly, Panasonic did have a line of slimline receivers (SA-XR55 and -57). They tried for several years to develop a market, there just wasn't enough interest.


- Most people are not space constrained.


- They are money constrained, and can get more for their money in a receiver produced in very high volumes.


- Getting every feature, even if you don't understand it, is a pretty good strategy for most people. Easier to do that than to try to figure out before buying what everything does, or find out later they wish you had it. (In your case, it's network/internet or wireless capability.)


- Lots of boneheads evaluate an amp by how big and heavy it is.


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