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post #1 of 26 Old 08-31-2014, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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"Front Wide or Front Height - Which would you choose?"

OK..... I've got 2 speakers set up at 2.5 feet above the front mains and 3 feet wide of them. Which would be the best configuration to hook up to on a Denon X4000. Right now I have it set up as wide. Moving the speakers is out so what is your recommendation. JD your title recommendation appreciated......sorry it was early for me when I first posted.

Thanks
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post #2 of 26 Old 08-31-2014, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Well JD that didn't work out very well
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post #3 of 26 Old 08-31-2014, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 26 Old 08-31-2014, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by audio.hobby View Post
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I tried both with my 9.2 setup (Onkyo NR3007) & preferred the front height. I'm now waiting for a new Denon X4100 receiver & will re-purpose the front heights into front ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos.
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post #5 of 26 Old 08-31-2014, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gary Thomas View Post
I tried both with my 9.2 setup (Onkyo NR3007) & preferred the front height. I'm now waiting for a new Denon X4100 receiver & will re-purpose the front heights into front ceiling speakers for Dolby Atmos.
I have 4 extra speakers, 2 in front and 2 in the rear, that I think will work with Atmos when I upgrade. Figure that I will point them towards the ceiling.
Curious though, why did you prefer to set up as heights?
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post #6 of 26 Old 08-31-2014, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio.hobby View Post
OK..... I've got 2 speakers set up at 2.5 feet above the front mains and 3 feet wide of them. Which would be the best configuration to hook up to on a Denon X4000. Right now I have it set up as wide. Moving the speakers is out so what is your recommendation. JD your title recommendation appreciated......sorry it was early for me when I first posted.

Thanks

That positioning is not ideal for either speaker "position". IIRC, height speakers should be mounted at a 45 degree angle to the listening position. If you can't achieve the recommended 45 degree angle, they need to be mounted as high on the wall as possible to distance them from the mains. Wides should be in the same horizontal plane as your front mains and placed at a 60 degree angle to your listening position. Your positioning will not give good results for either heights or wides.

Wides give better results than heights as the human hear can locate sound much more precisely on the horizontal plane than it can on the vertical plane.

Also, Chris K. from Audyssey has stated that wides give better results than heights and that Audyssey recommends wides over heights when you can't have both.
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post #7 of 26 Old 08-31-2014, 08:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
That positioning is not ideal for either speaker "position". IIRC, height speakers should be mounted at a 45 degree angle to the listening position. If you can't achieve the recommended 45 degree angle, they need to be mounted as high on the wall as possible to distance them from the mains. Wides should be in the same horizontal plane as your front mains and placed at a 60 degree angle to your listening position. Your positioning will not give good results for either heights or wides.

Wides give better results than heights as the human hear can locate sound much more precisely on the horizontal plane than it can on the vertical plane.

Also, Chris K. from Audyssey has stated that wides give better results than heights and that Audyssey recommends wides over heights when you can't have both.
These speakers are mounted as stated, however, since the entertainment center is in a corner these speakers are in front of the mains at an angle away from the fronts and pointing down. Without being able to draw you a map that is the best I can describe it. I will say that they sounded great with my Yamaha as presence speakers and they are OK as wides with the Denon, but I believe that they may sound better as heights. I only went with wide because they are wide and that was chosen as best sounding as you stated by Audyssey.
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post #8 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 05:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Do height speakers introduce any dialogue type of effect...like lift?
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post #9 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 05:27 AM
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My recommendation is neither. I just nixed heights this weekend, speakers are headed back to manufacturer. I am saving my channels for the jump to Atmos since I am already at 7.2. If you read comments on this forum and others those running one or the other or both - are very unclear about which is better, etc.

Just because you have it doesn't mean you need to use it, I speak from experience on that one. Plus your receiver will have a little more juice for the channels it needs to drive.
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post #10 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 05:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post
My recommendation is neither. I just nixed heights this weekend, speakers are headed back to manufacturer. I am saving my channels for the jump to Atmos since I am already at 7.2. If you read comments on this forum and others those running one or the other or both - are very unclear about which is better, etc.

Just because you have it doesn't mean you need to use it, I speak from experience on that one. Plus your receiver will have a little more juice for the channels it needs to drive.
I get what you are saying, I guess it could be deemed "The law of diminishing returns".
I did like what front presence added when I had the Yamaha. It subtly raised the sound stage and widened it at the same time while adding dialogue lift. What exactly are heights and wides supposed to add?
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post #11 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 05:55 AM
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Front Wide speakers are supposed to fill in the "hole" between Side Surrounds and Front speakers. They get the most use when DTS Neo:X sound enhancement is used.

Front Height speakers are supposed to provide overhead sounds. Again, DTS Neo:X seems to make the best use of them, but they're also used by Dolby ProLogic IIz and Audyssey DSX. They'll also be usable by Dolby Atmos, which works best with four overhead speakers.

Edited to add: several Blu-ray titles were intentionally mixed for home systems which have the additional Height and Width speakers supported by DTS Neo:X: Dredd, The Expendables 2 and Step Up 4: Revolution

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post #12 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
Front Wide speakers are supposed to fill in the "hole" between Side Surrounds and Front speakers. They get the most use when DTS Neo:X sound enhancement is used.

Front Height speakers are supposed to provide overhead sounds. Again, DTS Neo:X seems to make the best use of them, but they're also used by Dolby ProLogic IIz and Audyssey DSX. They'll also be usable by Dolby Atmos, which works best with four overhead speakers.

Edited to add: several Blu-ray titles were intentionally mixed for home systems which have the additional Height and Width speakers supported by DTS Neo:X: Dredd, The Expendables 2 and Step Up 4: Revolution
So neither have an effect on dialogue?
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post #13 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 06:56 AM
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Not directly. The vast majority of dialog comes from the center speaker, so dialog clarity primarily depends on the quality of that speaker and how it is placed and oriented. Adjusting the relative trim level of the center channel can help, too.

To some extent, when Height speakers are used, any of the audio enhancers can raise the apparent position of sound coming from the center speaker. How much they do depends on the specific algorithm. Of course, when dialog is supposed to be coming from the side, Wide speakers will get some of that sound.

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post #14 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by audio.hobby View Post
So neither have an effect on dialogue?
I think there are too many variable to say which will be better in your room, with your gear. Can try the speaker positions without permanently installing them? I preferred the heights in my room probably in part due to the location of my furniture and speaker placement limitations. Honestly, I had the biggest improvement in overall sound when I purchased a calibrated mic, tested the room and installed about 15 bass traps & acoustic panels. I also was able to tweak speaker placement based on the measurments.
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post #15 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I think there are too many variable to say which will be better in your room, with your gear. Can try the speaker positions without permanently installing them? I preferred the heights in my room probably in part due to the location of my furniture and speaker placement limitations. Honestly, I had the biggest improvement in overall sound when I purchased a calibrated mic, tested the room and installed about 15 bass traps & acoustic panels. I also was able to tweak speaker placement based on the measurments.
Mine are already mounted (see image below). I know it is not the ideal set up, but it has created peace in the home
As you can see there is a recessed part of the room that the front 3 and tv sit in. Behind the the tv is a SVS pb12 plus 2 sub. The 2 speakers in question (Polk OWM3) are about 6ft from floor 2.5 ft. above tweeters and 3 ft wide of them. And yes that is one of my surround speakers next to the left Polk. The room was designed to be facing to the right of the image but "she" didn't like it. Also, the other surround is directly behind the image along with 2 surround backs on either side of a large sofa and 2 additional Polk OWM3 mounted at the same height as the front 2. The additional Polks were used with a previous Yamaha as rear presence, and will be used again when I upgrade to Atmos.
Believe it or not it truly sounds wonderful after room correction kicks in. There are no walls blocking the 2 Main speakers and they point towards the main listening position toed in slightly. I just wish that they could be separated a little more for better 2 channel listening but overall not that bad. And to the left of the image opens up to the kitchen and dining area with vaulted ceilings.
Obviously it is not a dedicated theater but rather a functional family entertainment center with one heck of a "surround" system.
So which would better to assign as wide or heights?
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post #16 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 10:11 AM
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I think Wides. Heights would (in principle) be more nearly above the main speakers. But you can try both and decide which you prefer.

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post #17 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I think Wides. Heights would (in principle) be more nearly above the main speakers. But you can try both and decide which you prefer.
Thanks, I will try both.
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post #18 of 26 Old 09-01-2014, 04:42 PM
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FWIW when I was messing with 2 extra speakers and deciding between; height, wide and rear, I had settled on wide. I found (like someone else above) that the wides were the most engaging, especially when using DTS NeoX or DSX. Heights were okay and rear was the least noticeable....

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post #19 of 26 Old 09-02-2014, 03:45 AM - Thread Starter
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FWIW when I was messing with 2 extra speakers and deciding between; height, wide and rear, I had settled on wide. I found (like someone else above) that the wides were the most engaging, especially when using DTS NeoX or DSX. Heights were okay and rear was the least noticeable....
I wonder then on the X4000 if you can run both wide and heights and forego the Surround back?
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post #20 of 26 Old 09-02-2014, 04:07 AM
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I would personally make sure you are set for Atmos sound above anything else (no pun intended). If you don't that will end up being a big regret.

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post #21 of 26 Old 09-02-2014, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by audio.hobby View Post
I wonder then on the X4000 if you can run both wide and heights and forego the Surround back?
yes, you can forego the surround back if you would like. it's the first one I would ditch depending on room constraints.

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post #22 of 26 Old 09-02-2014, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I would personally make sure you are set for Atmos sound above anything else (no pun intended). If you don't that will end up being a big regret.
Can't you see, I am already set for Atmos
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post #23 of 26 Old 09-02-2014, 08:54 PM
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Can't you see, I am already set for Atmos

Not to be the bearer of bad news, but again....not even close to the right location. ATMOS speakers either need to be mounted in the ceiling, or the modules sit on top of your mains and aim up at the ceiling. They are for sounds that come from overhead, not in front of you.
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post #24 of 26 Old 09-03-2014, 03:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Not to be the bearer of bad news, but again....not even close to the right location. ATMOS speakers either need to be mounted in the ceiling, or the modules sit on top of your mains and aim up at the ceiling. They are for sounds that come from overhead, not in front of you.
I understand that but I have wall mounts for those speakers in front as well as back that I can use to point the speakers to the ceiling that I think would be more Ideal than any speaker mounted on a speaker.
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post #25 of 26 Old 09-03-2014, 04:07 AM
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Not to be the bearer of bad news, but again....not even close to the right location. ATMOS speakers either need to be mounted in the ceiling, or the modules sit on top of your mains and aim up at the ceiling. They are for sounds that come from overhead, not in front of you.
That's what I was getting at. I thought he was trying to decide between adding Wides or a pair of Heights which would be in an ideal location for Atmos.

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post #26 of 26 Old 09-03-2014, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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That's what I was getting at. I thought he was trying to decide between adding Wides or a pair of Heights which would be in an ideal location for Atmos.
Exactly....Those speakers are intended for the future with Atmos, but for now I have them set-up and wanted to know which would be better.... wides or heights for the front 2. So far I have been running them as wides and it is better than not using them at all but not as good as the Yamaha 3030 did with them as presence. I have yet found the time to switch to heights as I am just trying to live with it for now and get used to it set up in this fashion and when I change I will then know better which one to prefer.... if that makes sense to you all.
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