The **OFFICIAL** Marantz AV7702 Pre/Pro - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 08:06 AM - Thread Starter
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The **OFFICIAL** Marantz AV7702 Pre/Pro

Time to start a new page in the life of this pre/pro. Release is sometime next month.
MSRP $1,999
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...oductId=AV7702

Ok, time to add details pictures etc.

Life is enjoyable with good quality

Last edited by Dr_Mark; 09-25-2014 at 12:31 PM. Reason: update post, again
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post #2 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 08:21 AM
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post #3 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 10:04 AM
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I was at the CEDIA and had a couple of long chats with Kevin Zarow who is the VP at Product development for D&M. I've known Kevin for several years and he is a great guy. I have always found his subjective opinion to correlate with my ears. I also talked off line with Jeff Cowan VP of training at D&M to find out what he knows. He is a walking database. Finally, I spoke with a lot of the Dolby folks trying to understand how SQ will be impacted with Atmos EVEN with a 5.1 system.

Here is the cliff note:

1.) The Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Modules (HDAM’s) were reworked on the AV7702. "HDAM's" are discretely built operational amplifiers which is a key component in the analog signal chain. For clarification. "discretely built" means individual resistor, capacitors and FET's are used versus a semiconductor operational amplifier. A semiconductor operational OP amp is used on the lower cost Denon product family. The 7701's previous design has a 6.2V/μsec slew rate as compared to the redesigned 41.7V/μsec improved HDAMs for 2014. That works out to be nearly 7 times faster. A lion's share of the audible enhancements is beening credited to the new HDAM's re-design. According to Kevin, the differences were immediately noticeable to the engineers as well as his own ears. The 8802 (Feb 2015) will get this new tweak plus other enhancements TBD. To be clear, the 8801 has different tweaks over the 7702.

2.) Video Select was added in again. So for HDMI-connected sources, you can listen to one source while watching another.

3.) Digital-to-analog multi-source audio conversion for remote zones are again present. HDMI was added in 2014. So now all digital inputs are converted.

4.) More flexible Zone 2 HDMI features. Warning: Anytime zone two reconfirms handshakes, zone 1 will do the same and briefly interrupt the signal on the main zone. Perfect handshaking approaches cost $1K+ all by themselves. So this is not meant to be a substitute. I can expand on this if people care about this feature.

5.) Bluetooth streaming was added in addition to Airplay. Not aptX. Auto power on occurs when the AVR is selected as a BT device. Zone 2 BT is also capable with multi device memory (numerous users are allowed).

6.) HDMI 2.0/4K 60HZ.4K 60Hz 4:4:4 24bit, 4K 60Hz 4:2:2 36bit, and 4K 60Hz 4:2:0 24bit.

7.) ECO Mode enabled features were created to be "green". Off, On, and Auto are the three modes. In "On", sound quality is compromised. All USA models are factory set to "Off". Meaning, no Eco mode unless you enable it. If you enable "auto", energy saving starts automatically depending on volume level. The Auto mode means power saving happens without sacrifice in sound quality. I'm leaving it "Off".

8.) User experience/interface (GUI) have many improvements called "smart select".

9.) Significant App improvements for for phones and tablets (both iOS and Android) were created. Release date late October 2014.

10.) Microphone stand included.

11.) WiFi connectivity (hardwire is still recommended when it is available).

12.) 4 Shark Analog Devices DSP's. Important: This means D&M is the only vendors that can do Atmos AND Audyssey. Onkyo for instance chose to auto-upgrade a group of prepro's and receivers. Onkyo also saved on the BOM or Bill of Material by not adding the DSP horsepower to do both technologies. IMHO, a major fopaux to my customer base.

I have more bullets to follow. Got to run!

Steve with Sound Video http://www.soundvideo.com
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post #4 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
I was at the CEDIA and had a couple of long chats with Kevin Zarow who is the VP at Product development for D&M. I've known Kevin for several years and he is a great guy. I have always found his subjective opinion to correlate with my ears. I also talked off line with Jeff Cowan VP of training at D&M to find out what he knows. He is a walking database. Finally, I spoke with a lot of the Dolby folks trying to understand how SQ will be impacted with Atmos EVEN with a 5.1 system.

Here is the cliff note:

1.) The Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Modules (HDAM’s) were reworked on the AV7702. "HDAM's" are discretely built operational amplifiers which is a key component in the analog signal chain. For clarification. "discretely built" means individual resistor, capacitors and FET's are used versus a semiconductor operational amplifier. A semiconductor operational OP amp is used on the lower cost Denon product family. The 7701's previous design has a 6.2V/μsec slew rate as compared to the redesigned 41.7V/μsec improved HDAMs for 2014. That works out to be nearly 7 times faster. A lion's share of the audible enhancements is beening credited to the new HDAM's re-design. According to Kevin, the differences were immediately noticeable to the engineers as well as his own ears. The 8802 (Feb 2015) will get this new tweak plus other enhancements TBD. To be clear, the 8801 has different tweaks over the 7702.

2.) Video Select was added in again. So for HDMI-connected sources, you can listen to one source while watching another.

3.) Digital-to-analog multi-source audio conversion for remote zones are again present. HDMI was added in 2014. So now all digital inputs are converted.

4.) More flexible Zone 2 HDMI features. Warning: Anytime zone two reconfirms handshakes, zone 1 will do the same and briefly interrupt the signal on the main zone. Perfect handshaking approaches cost $1K+ all by themselves. So this is not meant to be a substitute. I can expand on this if people care about this feature.

5.) Bluetooth streaming was added in addition to Airplay. Not aptX. Auto power on occurs when the AVR is selected as a BT device. Zone 2 BT is also capable with multi device memory (numerous users are allowed).

6.) HDMI 2.0/4K 60HZ.4K 60Hz 4:4:4 24bit, 4K 60Hz 4:2:2 36bit, and 4K 60Hz 4:2:0 24bit.

7.) ECO Mode enabled features were created to be "green". Off, On, and Auto are the three modes. In "On", sound quality is compromised. All USA models are factory set to "Off". Meaning, no Eco mode unless you enable it. If you enable "auto", energy saving starts automatically depending on volume level. The Auto mode means power saving happens without sacrifice in sound quality. I'm leaving it "Off".

8.) User experience/interface (GUI) have many improvements called "smart select".

9.) Significant App improvements for for phones and tablets (both iOS and Android) were created. Release date late October 2014.

10.) Microphone stand included.

11.) WiFi connectivity (hardwire is still recommended when it is available).

12.) 4 Shark Analog Devices DSP's. Important: This means D&M is the only vendors that can do Atmos AND Audyssey. Onkyo for instance chose to auto-upgrade a group of prepro's and receivers. Onkyo also saved on the BOM or Bill of Material by not adding the DSP horsepower to do both technologies. IMHO, a major fopaux to my customer base.

I have more bullets to follow. Got to run!



Steve with Sound Video http://www.soundvideo.com
Thank you for the thorough notes/update.
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post #5 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Thank you for the thorough notes/update.
I am presently using the AV7005 and will be upgrading to the AV7702 when it is released. Can't wait!!

Brian
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post #6 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
1.) ... A semiconductor operational OP amp is used on the lower cost Denon product family.
All op amps use semiconductors; maybe you mean IC (integrated circuit)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
7.) ECO Mode enabled features were created to be "green". Off, On, and Auto are the three modes. In "On", sound quality is compromised. All USA models are factory set to "Off". Meaning, no Eco mode unless you enable it. If you enable "auto", energy saving starts automatically depending on volume level. The Auto mode means power saving happens without sacrifice in sound quality. I'm leaving it "Off".
Are you sure this info applies to the 7702 and not just the 7009 receiver?

Volume level shouldn't have any effect on power consumption in a pre/pro.

I was going to get the 7702 but am now leaning towards the 7009, which seems to be identical, HDAM and all, except for having power amps (which can be turned off in ECO mode) and lacking the XLR's.

They cost the same and the 7009 should be a lot easier to re-sell at upgrade time.

Noah
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post #7 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 11:43 AM
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Continued from above:

I was at the CEDIA and had a couple of long chats with Kevin Zarow who is the VP at Product development for D&M. I've known Kevin for several years and he is a great guy. I have always found his subjective opinion to correlate with my ears. I also talked off line with Jeff Cowan VP of training at D&M to find out what he knows. He is a walking database. Finally, I spoke with a lot of the Dolby folks trying to understand how SQ will be impacted with Atmos EVEN with a 5.1 system.

Here some more Cliff Notes (continued):

13.) I'm going to verify that Biamping is still allowed on the 7702 by reallocating other channels to replicate L&R. As a reminder, the 8801 does not have re configurable biamping yet it's 4520ci close relative was biampable. So I am not going to assume. But the best I can tell that feature is enabled.

14.) Marantz scaling uses the Analog Devices top-of-the-line 12-bit ADV8003 video processor. See http://www.analog.com/static/importe...ts/ADV8003.pdf

15.) New: The ADV8003 supports 6-channel direct stream digital (DSD) audio inputs. That means the 7702 supports DSD. YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

16.) As mentioned earlier, D&M will be the only receiver and prepro family to offer Audyssey. IMHO, this is especially important with Atmos because there will be more speakers. The Trifecta includes: I. Dynamic Volume which automatically moderates the difference between loud and soft programming. II. Dynamic EQ that automatically clarifies dialog intelligibility and adjusts subwoofer level and surround effects to deliver a reference quality listening experience at all volume settings. III. XT-32 which automatically sets the speaker distances, sizes, and levels and then equalizes the response for the room. As before, the Marantz allows users to bypass left and right as well as "LFE plus large" on the mains. Each and every user should experiment with this tweak. Also, never assume that Audyssey crossover settings are right. That is a subjective setting which depends on your room, speakers, and sub caliber + placement. Let your ears be the judge (not the microphone). Like other years, PRO calibration is still available.

17.) Dolby Atmos. I spoke with Mr. Mark Tuffy Ph.D. from Dolby (PhD in Signal Processing). In short the Atmos tools are superior EVEN IN A 5.1 SYSTEM. It's a software platform that will allow mixers to get more aggressive and therefore yield more dynamics both in the vertical and horizontal plane. Basically more wiz-bang effects are being mixed in. Additionally, 5.1 and 7.1 HOME mixes assumes wimply sides and rears. With Atmos, full range will be delivered to all speakers and an Atmos enabled prepro will sound more impressive using Atmos mixed movies even on 5.1 and 7.1 (no ceiling speakers). So yes, 5.1 and 7.1 Atmos enabled systems WILL factually sound better so long as the movie mixer took advantage of what Atmos can do. Putting it another way, the platform of tools are not available on discrete consoles and they are told to mix the rears in full range. I can also point to some Dolby dog-and-pony show interviews which say the same thing.

18.) According to Mr. Tuff, with discrete mixing and for optimum results, your speaker placement should match the mixers exact layout to yield the most immersible sound. I asked to clarify a couple of times but it went over my head. I'll take him at face-value. Basically he said there are compromises with all of our discrete 5.1 and 7.1 systems/mixes which will benefit from object based rendering. During our Lyngdorf demo at CEDIA, I asked Peter to play a A-B clip in 7.2 Atmos versus discrete 7.1. Verdict: Night and day difference. What hit me immediately was the full range experience that was much more impressive. Now all we need is a lot of Atmos content!
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post #8 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
All op amps use semiconductors; maybe you mean IC (integrated circuit)?
Considering I designed semiconductor backend processes in a wafer fab years ago, I should not have made that typo. My bad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Are you sure this info applies to the 7702 and not just the 7009 receiver?
The PDF written by Jeff who is the VP of training said "All Marantz and Denon models". I viewed that as controlling the preout levels as well. But you might be right. But ECO mode doesn't mean turning off the amps to use as a prepro. Considering "all models" don't have a preout, that can only mean they are controlling power via software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Volume level shouldn't have any effect on power consumption in a pre/pro.
From the CEDIA training PDF:
Three ECO state...

•“OFF” – Full output under all conditions (Out of box setting for the USA).
• “ON” – Full Energy Saving at ANY volume
• “AUTO” – Energy saving starts automatically depending on volume level = Power saving option without
sacrifice in sound quality
• ECO GUI Display - indicates amount
of energy being saved
• Added benefit of ECO mode is 4 ohm certified/guaranteed.



Also. In previous Marantz years, they had a few different HDAM quality levels. I assume the SR7009 and the AV7702 are the same but I would have to check. If you are using it as a bandaid for the 8802, just go with the X4100.

Steve w/ Sound Video http://www.soundvideo.com
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post #9 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 05:03 PM
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Thanks for the info, Steve. Does anyone know if this will be able to be upgradable to DTS-UHD via firmware?

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post #10 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 05:18 PM
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Thanks for the info, Steve. Does anyone know if this will be able to be upgradable to DTS-UHD via firmware?
I wasn't smart enough to ask. I'll do that via email right now as it is an great question. Will advise...

Steve with Sound Video http://www.soundvideo.com
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post #11 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
I'll do that via email right now as it is an great question. Will advise...

Steve with Sound Video http://www.soundvideo.com
Thanks, Steve!

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post #12 of 4464 Old 09-23-2014, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
I wasn't smart enough to ask. I'll do that via email right now as it is an great question. Will advise...

Steve with Sound Video http://www.soundvideo.com
Could you ask about upgradable to get Auro as well?

Noah
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post #13 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 12:01 AM
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Planning on *finally* replace my aging SR9600 with the AV7702!

Not a moment too soon either, since my HD audio format-decoding BD player kicked the bucket, and the SR9600 can only accept 5.1 LPCM.
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post #14 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Could you ask about upgradable to get Auro as well?
On of my contacts didn't know the upgrade possibilities of DTS-UHD or Auro. The fact that it wasn't mentioned in training, on literature, etc makes a strong suggestion that there is a technical problem for doing so (or that they didn't want to commit ahead of time). But I'll ask another person who would will be in a better position to answer.


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post #15 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 09:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Steve, do you have any pictures of the 7702?

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post #16 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 11:37 AM
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Useful thread...
Deciding between this and the SR 7009 .... if everything inside is the same, then the SR 7009 makes more sense...

Any ideas on an actual release date yet?
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post #17 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Useful thread...
Deciding between this and the SR 7009 .... if everything inside is the same, then the SR 7009 makes more sense...

Any ideas on an actual release date yet?
In production as we speak and for at least the past couple of weeks. Marantz portal says they should landing state side "October". I'm trying to get a firmer date for my pre-orders.
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post #18 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 02:02 PM
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The AV7702 showed up on the U.S. Marantz site. MSRP $1,799.00.
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...oductId=AV7702
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Last edited by clay71; 09-24-2014 at 02:15 PM.
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The AV7702 showed up on the U.S. Marantz site. MSRP $1,799.00.
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...oductId=AV7702
That's a first! A pre-pro that's less expensive than the equivalent receiver. Wow.

Selden

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post #20 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 02:35 PM
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Continued from above:

Kevin Zarow who is the VP at Product development for D&M called me back with some additional information. He is "the man behind the curtain" that helps direct product strategy. I'll add to the other 18 bullets linked above ^^.

Cliff Note (continued):

19.) Because D&M engineering used 4 Shark DSP's, there is enough MIPS to support the Auro-3D platform. D&M's engineering team has been working closely with Auro-3D and will be releasing a firmware update Q-1 or possibly sooner. There will be a fee associated with this for licencing and engineering development. TBD on the price but it will be reasonable. But he did mention that this was a very large engineering effort. Once the Auro-3D platform firmware is released, new 7702's will not get it for free. Rather it is an alacarte approach similar to Audyssey Pro.

20.) The DTS-HD firmware path has not been established. I could not get a date nor even a slight inkle. He refused to over commit until knows more. So the answer is TBD.

21.) Kevin said more analog sections were re-worked from the 7701. In other word it was not only the HDAM's but rather "several updates". When asked to describe the sonic differences/benefit he said another "veil" was lifted.

22 and beyond.) I'll be writing up this and more in a PDF to forward off to my customers. Those who are interested in more technical information can PM me and I can send them a courtesy email. Kevin is heading off to Japan early next week. He is going to answer my additional questions after he speaks with engineering.

I hope this helps!
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That's a first! A pre-pro that's less expensive than the equivalent receiver. Wow.
It's a typo. Soon to be corrected.
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post #22 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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here are a few pictures
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post #23 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Useful thread...
Deciding between this and the SR 7009 .... if everything inside is the same, then the SR 7009 makes more sense...
That's a well debated question...

Here are the differences:

1.) AV7702 has better grade coupling capacitors.
2.) Better shielded power supply.
3.) Larger transformer than the receiver counterpart.
4.) Lower noise floor because of the "pseudo" balanced approach (but it is NOT differentially balanced).
5.) The prepro has a measurably superior channel separation (a.ka. crosstalk).

In short, there are part differences (albeit the vast majority parts on the BOM are the identical). Engineering has explained to me in the past that there is simply more attention paid to the analog signal path on the prepro's. Also, when you remove the amps and give the designers more room to avoid cramming parts into the design, noise coupling is reduced. Those of you who follow 2 channel audio know designers pay very close attention to noise when it comes to jitter (1's and 0's errors). Hence, the noise floor interacts in the digital domain. So according to D&M, the net-net is the 7002 "sounds better" by a nose because of these difference. Other peoples mileage may vary but I hear a small audible difference. So I shed the "free" amp section and buy the better specs.
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post #24 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 05:26 PM
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I am impressed Steve.. I can use my old SR 12 as a power amp and drive the front stereo channels with my PM 11S3...
So I can also opt for the AV 7702 instead of the SR 7009 and it helps that it's cheaper too...

But I also read that the 8802 can be upgraded to the HDCP 2.2 + HDMI 2, any word on this for the 7702?

Thanks
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post #25 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
Dolby Atmos. I spoke with Mr. Mark Tuffy Ph.D. from Dolby (PhD in Signal Processing). In short the Atmos tools are superior EVEN IN A 5.1 SYSTEM.
Except that Atmos playback is not currently possible with a typical 5.1 or 7.1 system. With that sort of set-up, you won't be hearing the object-based mix rendered to your speaker layout but instead you'll be hearing the 5.1 or 7.1 channel-based downmix where each channel is simply routed to its respective speaker (irrespective of location). Hopefully this will change with the next generation of Atmos products.

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post #26 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 05:27 PM
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Thanks for the update, Steve.

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post #27 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post

Once the Auro-3D platform firmware is released, new 7702's will not get it for free. Rather it is an a la carte approach similar to Audyssey Pro.
Huh? One is a firmware update which once installed is always available on the AVR, while the Audyssey Pro Kit is a stand alone "hardware" kit which must used each time a calibration is completed.

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post #28 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
I am impressed Steve.. I can use my old SR 12 as a power amp and drive the front stereo channels with my PM 11S3...
So I can also opt for the AV 7702 instead of the SR 7009 and it helps that it's cheaper too...

But I also read that the 8802 can be upgraded to the HDCP 2.2 + HDMI 2, any word on this for the 7702?

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The HDCP 2.2 Full Bandwidth is the top 2 or three items I am looking for in my next pre pro. I do not want the nerfed version on the Integras. Any feedback on either the 7002 or 8002 would be greatly appreciated. I will spend extra for this feature.
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post #29 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 06:08 PM
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^^
As the AV7702 is due out next month, and the feature you want won't exist until next year sometime, it will include the same feature set as the SR7009.

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post #30 of 4464 Old 09-24-2014, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Huh? One is a firmware update which once installed is always available on the AVR, while the Audyssey Pro Kit is a stand alone "hardware" kit which must used each time a calibration is completed.
Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to the fee charged by Audyssey specifically to enable the Pro optional software. Hence, you are paying to enable this feature in alacarte fashion. I wasn't referencing what an installer charges nor what it costs to buy the microphone etc.
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