"The official Denon 2016/2017 flagship AVR (x9200w?) wishlist" - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #1 of 131 Old 12-01-2014, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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"The official Denon 2016/2017 flagship AVR (x9200w?) wishlist"

This thread is to serve as a wishlist of musts and wants for the next round of Denon flagship AVR, expected 2016/2017.
Hence it's title is "The official Denon 2016/2017 flagship AVR (x9200w?) wishlist"

The current round of Denon high end AVR's is covered in this thread (x4100w/x5200w/x7200w);
The "Official" 2014 Denon Atmos+XT32 Model Thread (X4100/X5200/X7200)

As a visual this is the offerings of those:

*note: the x7200w will be upgradable to Auro and HDCP 2.2 not listed in the above visual
http://assets.eu.denon.com/DocumentM...7200W_EN01.pdf , http://www.denon.co.uk/uk/product/pa...ctid=avrx7200w


Therefore;
What do YOU want to see in the next generation flagship from Denon? (via D&M holdings)
Post them here with rationale why a flagship should have them.

I've posted in past threads thoughts on;
-AVR being able to have multiple Audyssey calibration saves, say 3-4, this will allow those with multiple rows/seats to have say Cal-1 for first row only used, Cal-2 for both first/second row used, etc.
-Enhanced Audyssey ability (more on that, I'll dig out from other post - done see post 7 below)
-Full 24.x.10 Atmos ability built in

Newer thoughts;
-Very limited legacy hard coded analog input/outputs; it's time to leave analog "mostly" behind
-flexible analog outputs that the user could define in the GUI menu; think very flexible pre-out's here guys, map them as you need to use them
-Full support for Object sound from Auro and DTS-UHD
-Full control via IP, RS-232 is "old school" stuff

background on this thread - various musings on what "could be", or "should be", so why not make a wishlist thread?
The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread

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post #2 of 131 Old 12-01-2014, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Reserve 1 for other updates/consolidations of info;
(updated Dec-2)

-11 ch of built in amps
-video scaling options like a video processor
-keep rs-232 as many people have that integrated into their systems will make plug/play new AVR that much easier.....
-4 independent subwoofers
-consider dirac
-Audyssey Pro fully enabled , no extra user fee nor "higher quality" mic, it comes with that
-Audyssey could enhance it's MultEQ package offering to assist customers in determining Subwoofer(s) and Main RH/LH speaker optimized location.
-storing more audyssey calibrations and be able to select between them, preferably even with different target curves
-Full Atmos processing support 20+ channels

From post # 36 Dec-17-2014:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
I've been thinking how to move this discussion forward, so this weekend started to consider the back panel layout and the interior hardware layout as 2 key drivers.
This article gives one of the best re-caps and comparisions I've seen on the X7200W to what some consider the last flagship, the 5308CI (I'd have used the 4520CI but I'm prejudiced as owner of that)
http://www.audiogurus.com/learn/elec...-receiver/2977

Using back panel of x7200W as baseline:
>>Keeping audio and video board basic layouts as is
>>Should help with thermal management and EMI management issues


Here is mark-up of "keeps" and "deletions".
I realize this is debatable, but I truly see in 2016/2017 that a flagship has little need for true "legacy connectors" besides the bare minimum I've kept below.


Giving this result.
Since we are 2 years out, and the layout restrictions to keep the architecture of the x7200W, this seems "doable".....


Thoughts, comments, feedback?
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post #3 of 131 Old 12-01-2014, 11:19 AM
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I like everything that you have posted so far. I would like to see some video scaling options like a video processor can do. An automatic adjustment would be sick for those people that have cinema scope screens which is the future anyway.

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post #4 of 131 Old 12-01-2014, 06:28 PM
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Eleven channels of amplification would be nice if possible.
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post #5 of 131 Old 12-01-2014, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Eleven channels of amplification would be nice if possible.
+ 1
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post #6 of 131 Old 12-01-2014, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
-Full control via IP, RS-232 is "old school" stuff
It may be "old school", but quite a few Crestron integration programmers still prefer using it over IP for various reasons, one of which is that Denon has had a track record of IP control being somewhat unreliable. For example, my AVP-A1HDCI seems to forget that it has IP control every once in a while and requires a full power off / power on cycle for IP control to start working again. It really stinks when this happens when you're trying to do something like lower the volume. Same thing happens with the web control page and the DeRemote app on my iPad. Newer AVR's, such as my former AVR-4311 and now AVR-4520 in my secondary system seem to be more reliable. There's not much, if any, downside to continuing to include RS-232 control as it should add next to nothing to the cost.
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post #7 of 131 Old 12-02-2014, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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This addresse my "Enhanced Audyssey ability" from post#1:
Frankly Audyssey seems to have stagnated on it's innovation lately -what's their last new item in the market, the below 2 ideas I feel would enhance it and make it a more useful tool for HT enthusiasts like us.

Re-post of my enhanced Audyssey ability request from 01-06-2014, 05:34 AM , "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
Originally from 02-21-2012, 06:19 PM "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

With CES 2014 here I re-asked this to Chris K via his facebook tech page
https://www.facebook.com/groups/audysseytechtalk/
Quote: Originally Posted by mtbdudex

I post this in the Audyssey Tech Talk facebook page earlier today:

Proposal:

Audyssey technology already captures at the seating positions speakerroom response results.

With modification of those software capture routines, Audyssey could enhance it's MultEQ package offering to assist customers in determining Subwoofer(s) and Main RH/LH speaker optimized location.

Proposal itself is shown visually in the 2 pictures attached.

Knowing that for best audio/sound in a listening room, these parameters are tackled in prioritized order:

1. Speaker location, 2. Listener position, 3. Acoustic treatments, 4. Electronic correction.

Audyssey technology can be utilized for optimizing 1 and possibly 2, in addition to 4 as currently done.

On the surface, the subwoofer seems the leading candidate for this proposal, as most people's sub(s) can be changed location relatively easily.

A shift of say 6 - 12" can affect the peak/null at the Master Listening Position (MLP), so this can do the reverse of the subwoofer crawl, capturing objective data and using that to assist in optimal placement from a MLP.

>>This will also work for multiple subs, each optimized for its location relative to same MLP.

The Mains RH/LH, that location mostly is dictated within a tight envelope of front/side walls and display device, etc.

However, still opportunity for optimum placement could be identified using the same basic routines, changing the judgment criteria for Main speakers instead of subwoofer speaker(s).

(ie SBIR minimized, etc).

This proposal is the KISS concept, Keep It Short and Simple.

Baseline position plus up to (2) alternative positions would be measured from just the MLP, and then data analysis done, then visual ranking by simple #1, #2, #3.

An optional visual graph overlay of the Freq response plot/other chart would be made available.

This is a high level proposal, details of course underline it and need further discussion, but this post intent is to get the concept out.

The marketing of this seems to fit with the MultEQ XT32 customer in mind, being those customers are more tweaker orientated and will want this.

The above dealt mainly with determining 1. , speaker position.

Pict for subwoofer location proposal:


pict for main speaker location proposal

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post #8 of 131 Old 12-02-2014, 07:03 AM
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I would say get rid of Audyssey altogether and use dirac! Audyssey is very inconsistent and unreliable with my experience and many others as well. Dirac is the new and improved room correction software that is miles above audyssey.
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post #9 of 131 Old 12-02-2014, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Or have Audyssey Pro fully enabled in the flagship AVR, no extra user fee nor "higher quality" mic needed, it comes with that.
The CPU ability of chips has gotta be able to handle Audyssey Pro, which is much more tweak able than XT32.
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post #10 of 131 Old 12-02-2014, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Further, I'd truly like to see this next generation flagship AVR adopt handling 4 independent subwoofers, upping the game from 2 today...
2 independent has been out there now 2-3 years, in 2016 that will be 5 years and truly a flagship AVR should have that higher level ability, as many HT enthusiasts do have more than "just" 2 independent subwoofers
(by independent I mean not located/stacked next to each other, those couple together and act as single subwoofer)

From 02-20-2012, 07:28 PM post in the Audyssey forum
"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) , "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Is there any chance for the hi end/reference/flagship AVR's (Denon 5xxxCI line, Onkyo NR5xxx line, etc) 4 individual sub calibration will be included? Realizing this has limited marketability, yet still people with hi end Home Theatres are more and more using multiple subs to smooth out the low bass response. So, here's one customers feedback asking for it.

Quote:
Chris Kyriakakis
Hi Michael, we are not aware of any plans from AVR makers to go with 4 independent subs. When they do we are ready--the current Sub EQ HT algorithm is fully scalable to more subs.
Below post only here, not the audyssey tech forum, my soapbox speech:

So - the AVR makers are spoon feeding us with these slow adoptions of available technology why? Built in upgrade path....

Heck, look at the back of AVR's and tell me how many un-used connectors are there....

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post #11 of 131 Old 12-02-2014, 09:43 AM
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Second the desire for storing more audyssey calibrations and be able to select between them.
Preferably even with different target curves.

Full Atmos processing support 20+ channels, a modular daisy chain system would be acceptable, additional units can hold additional processing and amplification, but the mother unit would still have to be capable of minding and controlling the entire system, daisy chained units can hold additional DAC's and amplification.

As a user i would prefer and industry wide standard for connecting these, keeping the interconnect digital for instance RJ-45 would allow for a much smaller form factor than 20 RCA connectors.
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post #12 of 131 Old 12-03-2014, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
I would say get rid of Audyssey altogether and use dirac! Audyssey is very inconsistent and unreliable with my experience and many others as well. Dirac is the new and improved room correction software that is miles above audyssey.
YES!!!! Big +1

I'd also echo IP control vs. RS-232.

Other wants:
  • Configurable channels up to 11.2.4
  • Full featured HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2
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post #13 of 131 Old 12-03-2014, 03:25 PM
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Is this pure speculation and fun or do we have reason to believe they will be releasing something above the X7200?
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post #14 of 131 Old 12-03-2014, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frohlich View Post
Is this pure speculation and fun or do we have reason to believe they will be releasing something above the X7200?

This is more like a wish list for the next flagship Denon/Marantz

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post #15 of 131 Old 12-03-2014, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
This is more like a wish list for the next flagship Denon/Marantz
I get that but the next flagship Denon is the X7200 that replaces the 4520. The title says "X9200?" and I am just wondering if we have any reason to believe anything above the X7200 is to be offered by Denon (hints from insiders or Denon themselves) or this is just a fun exercise in what could be. Sounds like its just a day dream exercise
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post #16 of 131 Old 12-03-2014, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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"The official Denon 2016/2017 flagship AVR (x9200w?) wishlist"

Thread Title says 2016/2017, 2 years from now. The x7200w is current one, not future one. R&D cycles are 2 years, so specs need to be identified and developed in advance.....

Quote:
The current round of Denon high end AVR's is covered in this thread (x4100w/x5200w/x7200w);

The "Official" 2014 Denon Atmos+XT32 Model Thread (X4100/X5200/X7200)
Product planners do look at influential blogs to help guide them, trust me.

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post #17 of 131 Old 12-03-2014, 05:59 PM
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- Full Auro 3D 13.1 capability.
- More speaker trim limit instead of +/-12dB, which is not enough for users with high sensitivity speakers (JTR, Danley, JBL, etc)
- HDBaseT
- EQ for 4 subs
- 1 LFE line (non-eq line) for tactile transducer
- Dirac

- For the non flagship models, equip Audyssey XT32 into ALL models.
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post #18 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I posted this request for a wishlist of musts and wants for next flagship AVR 2016/2017 onto the facebook group "Home Theater Enthusiasts"
https://www.facebook.com/groups/home...5149790188128/

Here is what that generated:
(here is a re-cap the wishlist of musts and wants for next flagship AVR 2016/2017 , compiled Dec-10-2014)
Chris Rock:
-Needs to support Auro-3D and DTS-UHD multi-dimensional audio.
-Needs to include the latest version of HDMI and HDCP.
-Needs a serious number of pre-outs.
Mark Seaton:
-Drop the amps and make another great pre-pro. IOW, bring back the AV1HD or a less expensive alternate! With a preamp you don't need to spend the money to upgrade your amplification every time a new format comes out. About 3/4 the A1HD's reach would make a great processor. Then follow with a value processor by stripping the amps from the 5100/4100 while adding XLR outputs.
-Finally, try working with DIRAC as a premium room correction option.
Chris Linthicum:
-How bout audio delay adjustments for 2nd and 3rd zones as part of the integral D-A ? Classic example would be a home theater with an adjacent bar and a speaker in bathroom. No one wants out of synch audio in rooms so close. Really annoying with most current receivers, so you don't hear an Echo if you are playing same source in 2 near rooms.
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post #19 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 05:25 AM
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- kid-proof front panel / gorilla glass
- option to disable front panel buttons and volume dial
- house curve.
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post #20 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 06:49 AM
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post #21 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 09:27 AM
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This is a cool exercise, the first generation of AVR's are out there and already we early adopters are asking for more...


The desire for 11 channels is already been done by another manufacturer, so I am not sure why this never made it into the X7200 which in my mind is far too close the X5200. Even the Atmos capabilities between these two is no different. With regards to the amplifier count, I would have to agree with Mark Seaton, why bother, keep the price down by eliminating these and provide a pre that can process all of the Atmos positions and a room EQ that matches this level of sophistication, with multiple sub capabilities.


Of course full HDMI and HDCP compliance is a must and lets move forward with home integration, everybody has some form of home network, let's exploit this for control.

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post #22 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
Second the desire for storing more audyssey calibrations and be able to select between them.
Preferably even with different target curves.
Third this.

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post #23 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
Eleven channels of amplification would be nice if possible.
Eleven real channels of power...
That go down to 4 ohms without throttling the current..
Plus 100 000 ufarads of capacitance ...
Thx ultra will be a bonus...
A toroidal transformer to top it off. Or two
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post #24 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 06:02 PM
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At a minimum, I would like to simultaneously use front wides and rear surrounds with 4 overhead atmos channels.


Optimally, atmos would be enhanced to use actual measured speaker locations.


Find a way to make audyssey calibration take less time.


I like having 4 independent sub outs, but I wonder if it would make much of a difference.


I'm not in favor of eliminating the amps and making a pre. The cost savings is minimal and I like not having to hook up multiple amps.
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post #25 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
Eleven real channels of power...
That go down to 4 ohms without throttling the current..
Plus 100 000 ufarads of capacitance ...
Thx ultra will be a bonus...
A toroidal transformer to top it off. Or two

Ahh come on, lets go for 9.x.6 for the amplifiers, 15 channels, 11 is already available by others.


Instead of a flagship we could call it a 'battle cruiser"...
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post #26 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Sherwood View Post
Ahh come on, lets go for 9.x.6 for the amplifiers, 15 channels, 11 is already available by others.


Instead of a flagship we could call it a 'battle cruiser"...
16 pre-outs will be nice...
But I know the bean counters will object to 15 channels, so I am trying to be realistic, especially since Onkyo has it..
If it's too huge or expensive the pool of buyers will be diminished significantly...
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post #27 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 06:41 PM
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On the other hand, some Audiophile features I would like:

Top grade chips:
USB DAC / internally two DACs per channel / DSP 64 bit? / iphone + Andriod phone compatible DAC USB port

Gold connectors with WBT plugs

Give a solid antenna for analogue radio - yes in other nations, we like our radio.... DAB for non USA models will be nice too...

Reinforced chassis

Two remotes


12 HDMI inputs and four outputs with full function across all three zones

Digital output (optical and RCA)

3 years warranty

Option to buy a real tripod / stand for the mike at a low cost

Or tie up with a premier retailer for on site installation - I mean as a flagship, installation will be a nice touch...

A good phono section
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post #28 of 131 Old 12-10-2014, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post
16 pre-outs will be nice...
But I know the bean counters will object to 15 channels, so I am trying to be realistic, especially since Onkyo has it..
If it's too huge or expensive the pool of buyers will be diminished significantly...

I understand your thoughts, the amplifiers would be nice (15), but understand the expense, especially considering what the MSRP of X7200 is reported to be.


So as for pre-outs, how about the ability to process all 16 of them at the same time, so all active, a true 9.1.6 platform.
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post #29 of 131 Old 12-12-2014, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Below re-post from the "everything Atmos thread", where discussion gets lost/buried:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
I would certainly invite the ability to effectively alter the target curve. But even with that capability, there is no need to store multiple Audyssey calibrations to address this configuration problem. Multiple configurations (different height speakers) can easily be supported using the same EQ corrections as long as every speaker in the room was included in the calibration process.

Aside from allowing speaker gains to be mapped to given inputs, it should allow a choice of two or maybe more speaker configurations. This is how the SSP-800 works, and I miss that flexibility in the 7702.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
My 4520CI does EQ for the full 11.2 speakers I have, and then whichever mode I pick (NeoX, PLIIz, DSX) and height or wide or both it will map in accord, so I agree with you there.
It's when you change the amp assign after calibration then the cal file is not available to be used, maybe I mis-read the OP was going to do that, hence my post.

For people with multiple rows of seats, with 3-4 seats/row, having ability to store multiple configurations will enable them to have a 1st row mode when people are not sitting in the 2nd row, a 2nd row mode when not sitting in the first row, or a balanced 1st/2nd row mode, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post
Yes, I have just such a mode option in the SSP-800. I change the delays and levels for the "group" mode vs. the "me alone" mode. But the EQ is the same. It does not have to be complicated to be effective. But sure, if the product could do multiple EQ profiles, as is the case with Trinnov units, that would be fine. I'm looking at it from the "easily implemented" perspective. Since D&M can already let users remember different gains per input, why not just add delays and speaker options to the table.
I like that Roger, will add that to this thread "The official Denon 2016/2017 flagship AVR (x9200w?) wishlist"
Since kinda off topic for the everything Atmos thread, I'll copy/paste the above there so people can grasp the context of discussion

Last edited by mtbdudex; 12-12-2014 at 06:42 AM.
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post #30 of 131 Old 12-12-2014, 08:35 AM
 
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All I want is 11 amplifiers built in, like Onkyo has, so I do not need to buy another product to use the full capabilities of my already expensive AVR.
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