MCACC Pro vs Audyssey Sub EQ HT for dual subs - win goes to Pioneer? - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 10 Old Yesterday, 10:41 PM - Thread Starter
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MCACC Pro vs Audyssey Sub EQ HT for dual subs - win goes to Pioneer?

My upgrade is imminent, and I am comparing features between high end AVRs from all manufacturers. I have lived with, and mostly loved an Elite SC-65 for the past couple years, but am pretty curious about Audyssey XT32. On my short list is the Marantz SR7009, and Pioneer SC-87 with it's MCACC Pro, or perhaps the big boy SC-89 which ups the correction to precision distance. All the units look lovely, have very similar and comparable features, but the correction systems are, to me, where the biggest differences are.


I don't like that MCACC uses the same crossover point for all of my speakers, so that is a compelling reason to go with the Marantz unit. However, I DO like that I have ultimate adjustability with MCACC after calibrations are done, and I have really grown to love these features...1 point to Pioneer.


This may be the clincher. Both units treat dual subs in the time domain, but it appears that the Pioneer system goes a step further and applies individual EQ to each sub, whereas the Audyssey system only has on EQ profile which both subs share. I hope this is at least adjustable after the fact. See references below.


Page 211 of the Marantz SR7009 manual - sub section About Audyssey Sub EQ HT:


Audyssey Sub EQ HT makes integration of dual subwoofers seamless by first compensating for any level and delay differences between the two subwoofers and then applying Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 to both subwoofers together.




Pioneer on the SC-87 product page:


How advanced is MCACC Pro? So advanced that Pioneer engineers have included dual independent subwoofer outputs, each with individual EQ. Tailoring left- and right-channel low frequency response curves lets you achieve optimum subwoofer performance based on specific room placement, creating powerful bass response and seamless integration with your main speaker system.



Now, I fully expect the "low frequencies are omnidirectional, therefore they should be eq'd the same" replies to this post, as if that somehow magically negates a point of origin and nonsymmetrical room dimensions and surfaces around each sub. It matters, as it does with all speakers, especially if you would like to run higher crossover points.


Audyssey is regarded to be a better system than MCACC, but could this be a win for Pioneer?

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post #2 of 10 Old Yesterday, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
My upgrade is imminent, and I am comparing features between high end AVRs from all manufacturers. I have lived with, and mostly loved an Elite SC-65 for the past couple years, but am pretty curious about Audyssey XT32. On my short list is the Marantz SR7009, and Pioneer SC-87 with it's MCACC Pro, or perhaps the big boy SC-89 which ups the correction to precision distance. All the units look lovely, have very similar and comparable features, but the correction systems are, to me, where the biggest differences are.


I don't like that MCACC uses the same crossover point for all of my speakers, so that is a compelling reason to go with the Marantz unit. However, I DO like that I have ultimate adjustability with MCACC after calibrations are done, and I have really grown to love these features...1 point to Pioneer.


This may be the clincher. Both units treat dual subs in the time domain, but it appears that the Pioneer system goes a step further and applies individual EQ to each sub, whereas the Audyssey system only has on EQ profile which both subs share. I hope this is at least adjustable after the fact. See references below.


Page 211 of the Marantz SR7009 manual - sub section About Audyssey Sub EQ HT:


Audyssey Sub EQ HT makes integration of dual subwoofers seamless by first compensating for any level and delay differences between the two subwoofers and then applying Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 to both subwoofers together.




Pioneer on the SC-87 product page:


How advanced is MCACC Pro? So advanced that Pioneer engineers have included dual independent subwoofer outputs, each with individual EQ. Tailoring left- and right-channel low frequency response curves lets you achieve optimum subwoofer performance based on specific room placement, creating powerful bass response and seamless integration with your main speaker system.



Now, I fully expect the "low frequencies are omnidirectional, therefore they should be eq'd the same" replies to this post, as if that somehow magically negates a point of origin and nonsymmetrical room dimensions and surfaces around each sub. It matters, as it does with all speakers, especially if you would like to run higher crossover points.


Audyssey is regarded to be a better system than MCACC, but could this be a win for Pioneer?
"EQing" the subs separately makes no sense in this respect - they are driven together, so EQing their combined response is the only thing which makes sense. Now, if you want to talk about adjusting time delay/phase in a frequency-dependent manner for each sub independently (which I'm not sure if either does this), then you could argue that a system which can do that would be better than one which can't.

I have a quad-sub setup using Audyssey SubEQ HT (and MultEQ XT32) and find that it does an excellent job. That said, I have no experience with MCACC.
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post #3 of 10 Old Yesterday, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by theRchitect View Post
"EQing" the subs separately makes no sense in this respect - they are driven together, so EQing their combined response is the only thing which makes sense. Now, if you want to talk about adjusting time delay/phase in a frequency-dependent manner for each sub independently (which I'm not sure if either does this), then you could argue that a system which can do that would be better than one which can't.

I have a quad-sub setup using Audyssey SubEQ HT (and MultEQ XT32) and find that it does an excellent job. That said, I have no experience with MCACC.
The speed of sound does not depend on frequency, but rather the medium through which it travels.

Of course it makes sense. Let's suppose you have two full range speakers, and decide to run them in dual mono. They are driven together and adjusted to be perfectly in phase. Let's suppose one of these speakers is pushed up against a wall, while the other is 5 feet from any surface. Is it your assertion then that the one pushed up against a wall shouldn't have EQ applied to correct for any boundary gain over the other or vice versa? The overall frequency response at the listening position will be wildly different between the two. Subwoofers are no different.

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post #4 of 10 Old Yesterday, 11:28 PM
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Multiple subwoofers have certain significant sonic advantages..
However there are several factors to be aware of, Dr.Toole, Dr.Olive & Todd Welti of Harman International have done alot development over the last 10 years for this subject and their EQ software is implemented into some of the JBL Synthesis products.
Here is a link to 1 of their white papers on the subject...

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...s/multsubs.pdf

Just my $0.02...
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The only time where you need individual sub eq is if your subs are running in pure stereo mode (stereo bass). Else, you want to eq both subs together.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post
The speed of sound does not depend on frequency, but rather the medium through which it travels.

Of course it makes sense. Let's suppose you have two full range speakers, and decide to run them in dual mono. They are driven together and adjusted to be perfectly in phase. Let's suppose one of these speakers is pushed up against a wall, while the other is 5 feet from any surface. Is it your assertion then that the one pushed up against a wall shouldn't have EQ applied to correct for any boundary gain over the other or vice versa? The overall frequency response at the listening position will be wildly different between the two. Subwoofers are no different.
The one sub near the wall will be level and phase adjusted. Given the levels are the same only the sum response is what matters. The sum is what you are listening to, not two individual singals.
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Originally Posted by steak2 View Post
The one sub near the wall will be level and phase adjusted. Given the levels are the same only the sum response is what matters. The sum is what you are listening to, not two individual singals.
So it's your opinion then that boundary gain is equal across all frequencies?

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post #8 of 10 Unread Today, 06:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
The only time where you need individual sub eq is if your subs are running in pure stereo mode (stereo bass). Else, you want to eq both subs together.
Would you eq both full range speakers together, being that one is against a wall and the other us in open space? You do realize that the boundary gain is strongest in the region of subwoofer reproduction anyway, and it is a non linear effect across a broad frequency range, yeah?

Subs are not magic beans, they are speakers and as such are bound by the same principals.

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post #9 of 10 Unread Today, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrummingdude View Post

Subs are not magic beans, they are speakers and as such are bound by the same principals.
Basically correct except...
Low frequency nodes and resonances can/will vary greatly from room to room plus the factor of building materials and furnishings will have a major effects...
The pertinent point about subwoofers and balancing the low frequencys is that if this isn't correct the system will never sound rite..
Whenever we do an installl we always check the low frequency performance and move/optimze subwoofer or subwoofers placement accordingly before EQing the rest of the system..

IMHO...
My experienceis the EQ system implemented in the JBL Synthesis components is far superior to the results for running Audyssey, regardless of version note that we also are certified for Audyssey Pro..


Just my $0.02..
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post #10 of 10 Unread Today, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

IMHO...
My experienceis the EQ system implemented in the JBL Synthesis components is far superior to the results for running Audyssey, regardless of version note that we also are certified for Audyssey Pro..


Just my $0.02..
Thanks for the feedback. Does the JBL system allow for the equalization of subs individually, and is this feature typically implemented?

I had read previously the white paper you linked, and perused it again. Thank you for that...there's some good stuff in there.

Indeed, it's because of differing building materials and furnishings within a room which makes practical the individual equalization of subs. No one is arguing that placement is paramount, but eq can do wonders as well.

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