Denon's Eco Mode - what does it do exactly? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 52 Old 08-05-2015, 12:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Denon's Eco Mode - what does it do exactly?

I heard that the receiver will run a lot cooler in Eco Mode without any effect on sound. If it makes the receiver run cooler, it should cut down on wear and tear.

What exactly does it do? Just lower no-sound related power (lights etc.) or does it lower power for sound?

While the manual does not state what it does do, the manual suggest not using it, if you want to listen at loud levels so it sounds as if it does change power output.

Anyone know exactly? Also, any cons to using it?
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post #2 of 52 Old 08-05-2015, 01:48 PM
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I was wondering the same thing, look forward to an informed answer.
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post #3 of 52 Old 08-05-2015, 01:56 PM
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Using ECO = ON will result in roughly a 30% reduction in power consumption as well as roughly a 10 degree reduction in temperature of the AVR. I have been using ECO = ON mode since last September with no noticeable difference in SPL using 8-ohm, 92db speakers at an average volume level of 70/-10db in a small 13'x12' enclosed room.


ECO mode setting (Auto, On, Off)

Power consumption noted using a Kill-A-Watt meter:


No source playing: ON/AUTO = 58W; OFF = 92W
-40db: ON/AUTO = 61W; OFF = 95W
-20db: ON = 61W; AUTO/OFF = 95W
-10db: ON = 63W; AUTO/OFF = 97W

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post #4 of 52 Old 08-06-2015, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Weird result today in Audyssey. I set Econ to auto yesterday and that was its setting when I ran Audyssey earlier today to check something else. On the first run of today, I noticed the results had all my speakers, even subwoofer a lot further away. Audyssey, first run today, had L and R both set to over 12 feet and my center was set to over 13 feet, the back surrounds were 15 - 16 feet each. All other previous times under which I ran Audyssey, it was extremely accurate with all - setting them around 8-9 feet each for fronts and center and backs around 10 feet. I went back and turned off Econ, and did test again, and this time, it got them right to where they actually are and where Audyssey had set them before.

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post #5 of 52 Old 08-06-2015, 10:50 PM
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^ Sounds like you've found a bug in how it measures the delays. Might be worth reporting/asking in your Denon models "official" thread.
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post #6 of 52 Old 10-11-2016, 12:07 PM
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Well, I hope to answer questions and end the guessing once and for all. Many folks have been asking exactly what ECO mode does on the AVRs, and some like me, are not satisfied with the explanations in the manuals. There are many different threads on this topic, and while some are listed below, there are many others still buried in AVR-specific threads.
So I decided to open up a ticket online at the Marantz website. I received a response, but it wasn’t good enough. I wanted an engineer to respond to tell us exactly how this works. Well, I got one at feel pretty darn good about it.

A quick re-hash of the settings for “ECO Mode”
As with many of this year’s models, the NR1605 includes the latest Marantz smart ECO mode. This reduces power consumption significantly when the receiver is just used for background listening or running on lower levels without any negative impact to the audio quality. If the higher power is required while watching a movie or listening louder to favorite music, the NR1605 automatically switches to “full power output”. The smart ECO mode has three settings: Auto, On and Off leaving it up to the user to decide.
So here’s the response of D&M via email to me on how this works:
Response By Email (NJ Customer Service & Support) (10/11/2016 12:08 PM)
Hi Michael,
When ECO Mode is used, voltage for the amp stage decreases about 1/3 and amplifier stage energy loss decreases about 1/6 compared to ECO Mode being OFF.
It is recommend when using external amplification to leave ECO Mode set to ON. This will reduce power consumption to less than 70W.
When using ECO Mode ON at lower volume levels (under 45 Absolute) power consumption is about 1/2 as compared to leaving ECO Mode OFF. This is useful if using the AVR at night and you do not want to disturb others.
When using ECO Mode Auto, the circuit will control the power supply voltage by a relay. If the volume level is more than 45 Absolute the circuit will cut off. If the volume is less than 45 Absolute the circuit will switch on automatically. If listening at the threshold level (45) you will hear the relay clicking on and off frequently. Voltage for the amp stage does not change here, so power consumption would be the same as normal.

Thank You,
D+M Custom Install

So there you have it. I leave my setting to AUTO so that I have power when I need it, and when I want to reduce power and heat while listening to lower levels of music or movies, it automatically reduces power and therefore heat. For those who have external amplication, I don’t see anything in there that talks about reducing the pre-amplifier power. For those that happen to have relatively setting on the volume dial that tend to swing the AVR past 45 Absolute, when if overall loudness is low, then I guess you can experiment with the settings. But again, I still recommend ECO AUTO for 99% of the folks that are using the internal amplifier sections in these AVRs due to the benefits and hardly any drawbacks…
Parallel/similar threads:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/mar...988471/page-13
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...co-mode.96989/
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sh...php?t=18715832
Marantz Eco Mode

Sources:
http://us.marantz.com/us/news/pages/...aspx?NewsID=87
http://www.audiogurus.com/learn/elec...-receiver/1444
http://manuals.marantz.com/SR7010/NA...wLgMdQ&cad=rja
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post #7 of 52 Old 10-11-2016, 12:50 PM
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Again .. will depend on the impedance/sensitivity of the speakers, size of room, and volume level. I'll stick with ECO = ON for the core temp reduction and no loss in audio quality at near reference volume.
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post #8 of 52 Old 10-11-2016, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Again .. will depend on the impedance/sensitivity of the speakers, size of room, and volume level. I'll stick with ECO = ON for the core temp reduction and no loss in audio quality at near reference volume.
Yes, those things do depend on the actual results.

I just don't understand why you would think that a 1/3rd reduction in amplifier voltage level would not affect the amplifier performance? Isn't amplifier voltage completely tied to maximum power output assuming it can also always deliver the required current?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I just don't understand where you are coming from on this.
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post #9 of 52 Old 10-11-2016, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
Yes, those things do depend on the actual results.

I just don't understand why you would think that a 1/3rd reduction in amplifier voltage level would not affect the amplifier performance? Isn't amplifier voltage completely tied to maximum power output assuming it can also always deliver the required current?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I just don't understand where you are coming from on this.
On average an 8-ohm, 92db speaker draws < 5W at reference volume so even a 50% drop would still provide plenty of power for the majority of my listening.
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post #10 of 52 Old 10-11-2016, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
On average an 8-ohm, 92db speaker draws < 5W at reference volume so even a 50% drop would still provide plenty of power for the majority of my listening.


Are you basing "reference level" by the THX standard of 75dB calibrated (85dB move theaters) and 105dB peaks? That's the only reference level I know of for movies, and I don't think one exists for music.
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post #11 of 52 Old 10-11-2016, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
Are you basing "reference level" by the THX standard of 75dB calibrated (85dB move theaters) and 105dB peaks? That's the only reference level I know of for movies, and I don't think one exists for music.
Correct.
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post #12 of 52 Old 10-11-2016, 01:51 PM
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What I would be interested to learn, is whether anyone has tried to run one of these AVRs under conditions which forces it to draw a lot of power i.e. outputting a test tone to all channels at reference level, using inefficient speakers, for the purposes of recording an audible difference with the ECO mode set to ON vs. OFF.
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post #13 of 52 Old 10-14-2016, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tezster View Post
What I would be interested to learn, is whether anyone has tried to run one of these AVRs under conditions which forces it to draw a lot of power i.e. outputting a test tone to all channels at reference level, using inefficient speakers, for the purposes of recording an audible difference with the ECO mode set to ON vs. OFF.

Great point. I decided to do a couple of tests to see
Test #1 – continuous sine waves: Using REW, a UMIK-1 microphone, and a Marantz SR7010 driving 7 channels of Goldenear SuperSat 50s/60s speakers, at the listening position, I have verified that even at very high volumes, at 93dB (which +7dB over the 85dB “reference’ level), I saw no real difference of SPL or distortion comparing ECO Mode On versus OFF (AUTO is the same case, but irrelevant since AUTO would be the same as ON).
Test #1 VIDEO illustration:
So in that test, my AVR was driving 7x91dB sensitive speakers to 93dB overall summed, and likely pushing somewhere between 10-20 watts (14w estimated). And it was REALLY REALLY LOUD.
Summary: ECO mode makes no difference with sine waves, so best to leave it ON in this case.

Test #2 – burst tone test: Using REW, a UMIK-1 microphone, and a Marantz SR7010 driving 7 channels of Goldenear SuperSat 50s/60s speakers, at the listening position, I set a 1Khz burst tone that peaks at 106dB, which is right near reference level peak (105dB is 20dB over 85dB reference). In this case, you can clearly and audibly hear a difference between ECO ON vs. ECO OFF. The tone/note changes considerably. I did not notice THD or SPL differences between the two, but mainly because I’m not sure I know how to yet account for them in the burst test procedure. But the sound change is clear. 0:55-1:05 is OFF/AUTO, 1:05 is ON. (Note: for some reason, the very first tone is the series doesn’t sound any different. It’s only the 2nd peak tone and every tone thereafter that sounds different. The only way I can theorize this is that it takes time for the residual high voltage to dissipate, which is achieved on the 1st tone. Since the 1st tone dissipated the extra power in the amplifier, then 2nd tone was limited to whatever the voltage limit is)
Test #2 VIDEO illustration:
So in test #2, my AVR was driving 7x191dB sensitive speakers to 106dB overall summed, which is 16dB over 1w, and likely pushing upwards of 196 watts given a 14X increase in power requirement.
Summary: ECO mode OFF vs ON has a noticeable difference with peak tones, and it’s best to leave ECO in OFF in this case

So why the conflicting information, where in one case it works fine, but in the other case it doesn’t? Easy answer can be illustrated with the ATTACHED chart and can be simplified with the following phase: “Most movies and music aren’t sine waves, they have dynamic content with peaks and valleys.”


Source: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/how...eloudness.html

To properly figure out how much amplifier power you need, you have to figure out the maximum volume level you ever want to run at, figure how much power you need at PEAK levels (the same thing as the maximum of the maximum), and then add in all the other components, such as your room, your speakers’ sensitivity, distance from the listening position.

For anyone wanting to deliver 105dB peaks, even using really good (high sensitivity speakers), you still need 10 times the voltage or 100 times the power over 85dB reference for those peaks. Remember, too, that every doubling of distance from the speaker either decreases output by 6dB, or you have to add 6dB of power to get the same levels (4x the power, or double the voltage).
One final thought: my speakers were tested at 1Khz, but even more power is needed for bass. So for those considering ECO Mode to drive full range speakers, or even speakers set to SMALL at crossed over at 80Hz, you may very need considerably MORE power than my 1Khz tone. I may do a 100hz test tone and see at what dB level I can hear a noticeable change in that tone. I would be using the below
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

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post #14 of 52 Old 10-14-2016, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
Great point. I decided to do a couple of tests to see
Test #1 – continuous sine waves: Using REW, a UMIK-1 microphone, and a Marantz SR7010 driving 7 channels of Goldenear SuperSat 50s/60s speakers, at the listening position, I have verified that even at very high volumes, at 93dB (which +7dB over the 85dB “reference’ level), I saw no real difference of SPL or distortion comparing ECO Mode On versus OFF (AUTO is the same case, but irrelevant since AUTO would be the same as ON).
Test #1 VIDEO illustration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h0NR5-VKlg
So in that test, my AVR was driving 7x91dB sensitive speakers to 93dB overall summed, and likely pushing somewhere between 10-20 watts (14w estimated). And it was REALLY REALLY LOUD.
Summary: ECO mode makes no difference with sine waves, so best to leave it ON in this case.

Test #2 – burst tone test: Using REW, a UMIK-1 microphone, and a Marantz SR7010 driving 7 channels of Goldenear SuperSat 50s/60s speakers, at the listening position, I set a 1Khz burst tone that peaks at 106dB, which is right near reference level peak (105dB is 20dB over 85dB reference). In this case, you can clearly and audibly hear a difference between ECO ON vs. ECO OFF. The tone/note changes considerably. I did not notice THD or SPL differences between the two, but mainly because I’m not sure I know how to yet account for them in the burst test procedure. But the sound change is clear. 0:55-1:05 is OFF/AUTO, 1:05 is ON. (Note: for some reason, the very first tone is the series doesn’t sound any different. It’s only the 2nd peak tone and every tone thereafter that sounds different. The only way I can theorize this is that it takes time for the residual high voltage to dissipate, which is achieved on the 1st tone. Since the 1st tone dissipated the extra power in the amplifier, then 2nd tone was limited to whatever the voltage limit is)
Test #2 VIDEO illustration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAijg06frXk
So in test #2, my AVR was driving 7x191dB sensitive speakers to 106dB overall summed, which is 16dB over 1w, and likely pushing upwards of 196 watts given a 14X increase in power requirement.
Summary: ECO mode OFF vs ON has a noticeable difference with peak tones, and it’s best to leave ECO in OFF in this case

So why the conflicting information, where in one case it works fine, but in the other case it doesn’t? Easy answer can be illustrated with the ATTACHED chart and can be simplified with the following phase: [B]“Most movies and music aren’t sine waves, they have dynamic content with peaks and valleys.”


To properly figure out how much amplifier power you need, you have to figure out the maximum volume level you ever want to run at, figure how much power you need at PEAK levels (the same thing as the maximum of the maximum), and then add in all the other components, such as your room, your speakers’ sensitivity, distance from the listening position.

For anyone wanting to deliver 105dB peaks, even using really good (high sensitivity speakers), you still need 10 times the voltage or 100 times the power over 85dB reference for those peaks. Remember, too, that every doubling of distance from the speaker either decreases output by 6dB, or you have to add 6dB of power to get the same levels (4x the power, or double the voltage).
One final thought: my speakers were tested at 1Khz, but even more power is needed for bass. So for those considering ECO Mode to drive full range speakers, or even speakers set to SMALL at crossed over at 80Hz, you may very need considerably MORE power than my 1Khz tone. I may do a 100hz test tone and see at what dB level I can hear a noticeable change in that tone. I would be using the below

We have explained in previous posts about Eco-Mode..
Basically it uses a processor to track signal levels (input/output) and adjusts the power supply drive voltage. Was developed as to meet the mandatory Euro standards for power supply consumption, when driving various levels and @ periods of idle. The reason the initial output power/peaks are lower when Eco-Mode is ON is because the processor & sw needs time to respond to the higher demands. If one is just cruisin at EZ background listening levels use Econ-Mode, but if one want max power and sonic performance switch it OFF...

Just my $0.02..
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post #15 of 52 Old 10-14-2016, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
We have explained in previous posts about Eco-Mode..

Basically it uses a processor to track signal levels (input/output) and adjusts the power supply drive voltage. Was developed as to meet the mandatory Euro standards for power supply consumption, when driving various levels and @ periods of idle. The reason the initial output power/peaks are lower when Eco-Mode is ON is because the processor & sw needs time to respond to the higher demands. If one is just cruisin at EZ background listening levels use Econ-Mode, but if one want max power and sonic performance switch it OFF...



Just my $0.02..


Thanks, makes sense. I for one, like technologies that are smart enough to be able to adapt to lower power consumption and heat when needed. The actual cost of any single component in your house barely makes a dent, but the entire overall solution as a whole across the board, makes a world of difference.
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post #16 of 52 Old 10-14-2016, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
For anyone wanting to deliver 105dB peaks, even using really good (high sensitivity speakers), you still need 10 times the voltage or 100 times the power over 85dB reference for those peaks. Remember, too, that every doubling of distance from the speaker either decreases output by 6dB, or you have to add 6dB of power to get the same levels (4x the power, or double the voltage).
One final thought: my speakers were tested at 1Khz, but even more power is needed for bass. So for those considering ECO Mode to drive full range speakers, or even speakers set to SMALL at crossed over at 80Hz, you may very need considerably MORE power than my 1Khz tone. I may do a 100hz test tone and see at what dB level I can hear a noticeable change in that tone. I would be using the below
Thanks for going through all that effort to test it, I certainly find the additional information useful

I think I'm going to just keep mine at Auto. A smarter implementation for future models would be fantastic.
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post #17 of 52 Old 10-14-2016, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by tezster View Post
Thanks for going through all that effort to test it, I certainly find the additional information useful

I think I'm going to just keep mine at Auto. A smarter implementation for future models would be fantastic.


The issue is that D&M are still using Class AB amplifiers, which are some of the best sounding amps available, rather than Class D, which many in the industry, including Pioneer, are going to.
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post #18 of 52 Old 10-16-2016, 07:11 PM
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I use my denon x4200w basically as a pre amp Processor for my emotiva xpa 5. So based on what's kind of been said I should be able to keep it in eco on all the time even when cranked for a movie? Since I'm just using the preouts and not the internal amp?
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post #19 of 52 Old 10-16-2016, 08:23 PM
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I also use my Denon x6200w as a pre amp processor with an Outlaw 5000 driving my mains/surround. The denon is only driving the rear surrounds.
Wondering if eco on would benefit me. With my cooling fans I run around 84 degrees.
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post #20 of 52 Old 10-16-2016, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
I also use my Denon x6200w as a pre amp processor with an Outlaw 5000 driving my mains/surround. The denon is only driving the rear surrounds.
Wondering if eco on would benefit me. With my cooling fans I run around 84 degrees.
Where are U measuring 84 degrees??
If on top or side cover, the internal temperature is 10-15% higher..

Just my $0.02...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post
Where are U measuring 84 degrees??
If on top or side cover, the internal temperature is 10-15% higher..

Just my $0.02...
Lol, my bad.. The probe is pretty much flush on the top cover. The fans are the Ac Infinity s7's and are pulling the hot air out.
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post #22 of 52 Old 10-16-2016, 09:04 PM
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I would just like to know if eco mode effects the pre amp output voltage or not. If it doesn't then I never have to take it out of eco mode since the emotive XPA 5 does all of my amplification.
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post #23 of 52 Old 10-16-2016, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadnaught16 View Post
I would just like to know if eco mode effects the pre amp output voltage or not. If it doesn't then I never have to take it out of eco mode since the emotive XPA 5 does all of my amplification.
I also am wondering this if anyone knows
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post #24 of 52 Old 10-17-2016, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dreadnaught16 View Post
I would just like to know if eco mode effects the pre amp output voltage or not. If it doesn't then I never have to take it out of eco mode since the emotive XPA 5 does all of my amplification.
AFAIK, no.
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post #25 of 52 Old 10-17-2016, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dreadnaught16 View Post
I would just like to know if eco mode effects the pre amp output voltage or not. If it doesn't then I never have to take it out of eco mode since the emotive XPA 5 does all of my amplification.


It does not affect the preamp stage, only the amplifier stage of the AVR
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post #26 of 52 Old 10-17-2016, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreadnaught16 View Post
I use my denon x4200w basically as a pre amp Processor for my emotiva xpa 5. So based on what's kind of been said I should be able to keep it in eco on all the time even when cranked for a movie? Since I'm just using the preouts and not the internal amp?
Quote:
Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
I also use my Denon x6200w as a pre amp processor with an Outlaw 5000 driving my mains/surround. The denon is only driving the rear surrounds.
Wondering if eco on would benefit me. With my cooling fans I run around 84 degrees.
If you see the comments above from the Marantz rep they specifically mention leaving ECO mode ON when using external amps.

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Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
It is recommend when using external amplification to leave ECO Mode set to ON. This will reduce power consumption to less than 70W.
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post #27 of 52 Old 10-17-2016, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subacabra View Post
I also use my Denon x6200w as a pre amp processor with an Outlaw 5000 driving my mains/surround. The denon is only driving the rear surrounds.
Wondering if eco on would benefit me. With my cooling fans I run around 84 degrees.


If it's only driving the rear surrounds, the questions that impact your decision are:

What is the sensitivity rating of those rear speakers?
How far away are they from the listening position?
Are those speakers setup as small or large (full range or crossed over)?
What is the volume number indicated in the AVR when you do play loud?
How loud do you like to play (those rear speakers) using SPL figures?

The last question is actually the most important one. As @jdsmoothie pointed out, even less than 1 watt average playback level is actually quite loud and not everyone listens to movies or music that loud.
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post #28 of 52 Old 10-17-2016, 02:56 PM
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And even if there was a slight clipping on some peak dynamic effects in the back surrounds, would you even notice?

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post #29 of 52 Old 10-17-2016, 03:07 PM
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Thanks guys, appreciate the info.
I'll just set it to auto.
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post #30 of 52 Old 10-17-2016, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
And even if there was a slight clipping on some peak dynamic effects in the back surrounds, would you even notice?


I'm sure 90+% of people probably wouldn't notice. Ignorance is bliss

It's a personal decision each person can answer themselves.

For me, I also wouldn't notice if a restaurant dropped my steak on the floor by accident, wiped and dusted it off on the grill, then then served it to me, especially if I didn't know about it.
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