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post #1 of 13 Old 09-11-2015, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Online UPS downsides

What are the downsides of using an online UPS with a receiver?
Is it recommended to use with an AVR?

I live in an area where there is varying voltage issues, spikes, surges, consistent short term outages and sometimes long term outages (long term is not a concern since I can switch off until power comes back)
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post #2 of 13 Old 09-11-2015, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaQBlogs View Post
What are the downsides of using an online UPS with a receiver?
Is it recommended to use with an AVR?

I live in an area where there is varying voltage issues, spikes, surges, consistent short term outages and sometimes long term outages (long term is not a concern since I can switch off until power comes back)
The UPS is designed to prevent a catastrophic shut down of a computer which, in the old days, could lose directory markers. There is no reason to use one on an audio system.
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post #3 of 13 Old 09-11-2015, 03:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FMW View Post
The UPS is designed to prevent a catastrophic shut down of a computer which, in the old days, could lose directory markers. There is no reason to use one on an audio system.
In a PC, Is directory markers the only reason to use a UPS?
Was under the impression, an AVR being an microprocessor based device requires to be powered off "gently".
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post #4 of 13 Old 09-11-2015, 06:14 PM
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Unlike PCs and servers AVRs are stand-alone devices with dedicated processors and firmware. The only reason I have UPS's are because we have fairly frequent power glitches and the UPS allows me to ride out a short glitch, or power everything down gracefully (not just the AVR -- TV, power amps, etc.) in the advent of a longer one. Rapid power cycling is hard on most electronics as the power supplies and such are not designed for that; some protection circuits are designed to work from a cold (literally) start and do not fully protect when you pop the power off then immediately back on.

My UPS are all off-line so are much cheaper and I do not need pure-sine output to ride out a glitch.

"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley
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post #5 of 13 Old 09-12-2015, 01:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Unlike PCs and servers AVRs are stand-alone devices with dedicated processors and firmware. The only reason I have UPS's are because we have fairly frequent power glitches and the UPS allows me to ride out a short glitch, or power everything down gracefully (not just the AVR -- TV, power amps, etc.) in the advent of a longer one.
....
My UPS are all off-line so are much cheaper and I do not need pure-sine output to ride out a glitch.
I too have power gliches and more likely worse. I don't see how my device would survive where I live without an UPS.
Currently I have an Line Interactive (Stepped approximation to a sinewave) running for my AVR. I had so many recommendations who were like use an Online version.
I came here since I am totally confused, Do I really need that? I have people back here who use, Online UPS and Servo stabilizer together.

I do occasionally play from the UPS when there is no power. It can last about 10-20 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
My UPS are all off-line so are much cheaper and I do not need pure-sine output to ride out a glitch.
So when does one go for an online version?
As I understand the switch over time is around 4ms on Line Interactive as compared to 0 in Online. With a Line Interactive, Would this damage the AVR in anyway when there are rapid consistent switchovers from Battery to mains to Battery...?

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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
Rapid power cycling is hard on most electronics as the power supplies and such are not designed for that; some protection circuits are designed to work from a cold (literally) start and do not fully protect when you pop the power off then immediately back on.
I have a Crown XLS 1500 which I have connected using a decent stabilizer. Would rapid power cycling cause any issues for the Crown? If I remember it right, I read somewhere that the power sections on these are rock solid. I do have a whole house UPS, while it allows me to power down gently, it doesn't seem to protect me from surges / spikes. When the home UPS has kicked in, I have seen my TV & display flicker with surges/spikes/Back EMF or even when other devices are switched on at home. This is the reason I started exploring around.

Even when there are no other devices being switched on/off at home, my display sometimes flickers when my Home UPS is on battery AND my device UPS switches from its mains to battery or back. The display goes off for like 1-2 seconds, and sometimes jumps around a bit.

As you can see I am facing multiple issues, and entirely confused.
I am currently leaning towards getting at least a surgeX. While the surgeX protects me from surges/spikes, I am not sure what to do with the display problem when on UPS. Maybe the load is a bit too high on the UPS? But again would that cause the display to flicker when switching from Mains to Battery to Mains...

Last edited by ShaQBlogs; 09-12-2015 at 01:42 AM.
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post #6 of 13 Old 09-12-2015, 08:40 AM
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I am not familiar with the power grid in India (though I work with a good many folk from there, and they are rather uncomplimentary about the power even in big cities like Bangalore) but the UPS' work the same.

Let's start with what they are. An off-line UPS has a battery, a switch, and an inverter to convert the battery's DC (constant) voltage to AC (alternating) voltage like the power line. Normally whatever is connected to its outputs runs from the input AC line and a charging circuit just charges the battery. When the inverter's control circuit detects a voltage drop, it turns on the inverter and switches the output to the inverter. The inverter is powered by the battery and is only used when there is a voltage drop. It takes a little time for the control circuit to detect the drop, start the inverter, and switch the outputs to the inverter.

An online UPS also has a battery and inverter, but the outputs are always powered by the inverter (running from the battery). The battery is charged by a charging circuit running from the line. When the line voltage drops, the charger ceases charging, but the outputs do not change since they are already driven by the inverter. No switch-over time.

The inverter can be a very simple switching circuit that only very roughly approximates a sine wave output, or more complicated device that provides a pretty smooth sine wave at the output. The simple ones are much cheaper to make and the output after an internal filter is good enough to run most devices. These stepped-sine inverters (really many of them are stepped sine waves, but some use many more steps) are OK for components that have good AC line noise rejection, which includes most computers and electronic devices (such as most TVs and stereos). Things that operate directly off the line voltage, like fan motors, air or liquid pumps, and such may overheat if run on stepped-sine inverters for long periods due to their higher output distortion.

Pure-sine inverters use many more steps or, in some cases, a different circuit design that generates a very clean sine wave output. They are good for motors and such plus any devices that are sensitive to line noise, which may include some electronic devices with poor power supplies or high gain. Because the inverters run constantly they must be more robust and are much more expensive (often 2x to 4x the cost of an off-line supply of the same rating).

You can use either inverter type on an off-line or on-line UPS. Most of my UPS (I have several in the house) are off-line using stepped-sine inverters, mostly APC Back-UPS. One is a Smart-UPS with a cleaner "pure sine" output. It is also an off-line device, but the cleaner output keeps the air and water pumps for my aquarium from overheating. This one I will leave on until the battery runs out if we have a longer outage to try to keep the fishes alive.

If the power supply in a component does not have enough charge storage (capacitance) to keep it working during a brief outage until an off-line UPS switches over, and/or not enough line isolation to reject noise spikes and these short glitches before the UPS takes over, then you can get flickers as you see. And may hear pops in your speakers, see lights flicker, etc. If the voltage drops out long enough that a component like your TV has to restart then you may see a longer interruption until the picture comes back. The power was switched quickly, but the TV sensed it went away and started shutting down, then had to start up again. Manufacturers will use the cheapest power supply they can get away with so this may not be uncommon.

Some off-line UPS' switch more quickly than others but I have not researched this. A few years ago I saw times from a couple of ms up to 100 ms or more. Note a 50/60 Hz cycle is 20/17 ms long so most components will be OK if they a cycle or two, but not all, and some power supplies are more sensitive to missed cycles. My TV may flicker, I am honestly not sure, but certainly does not go dark when my UPS turns on. But it also sounds like I have far fewer power glitches than you (maybe one to several a month for me). Do note that many short glitches may go unnoticed if they are too short for anything to react, or if the switchover is fast.

Where does this leave us? Clearly the off-line UPS you have for your TV is not enough. An on-line UPS would solve that. So might an off-line UPS that switches faster, or perhaps a different TV that can better ride out the switch. No way for me to tell from here.

On surges, I have never seen a UPS that did not include surge protection, so I doubt you need more than that. However, motors and many power supplies do generate spikes as they turn off and often even worse when they turn back on, so even if you have a surge suppressor at the electrical service entrance, things inside the house could send generate spikes that reach other things in the house before the whole-house suppressor.

Bottom line: An on-line UPS may be what you really need for the TV and should resolve the problems you are having. It will cost more, natch.

Lot of stuff presented pretty fast, hopefully this helps! - Don
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post #7 of 13 Old 09-12-2015, 09:39 AM
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p.s. I realized I may not have explicitly answered the on-line UPS "drawbacks" question that started this thread...

Pros: An on-line UPS has no switching lag. They tend to be higher-end units with cleaner ("pure-sine") output (though do not have to be). They tend to use more robust (heavier-duty) components since they must be rated for continuous use.

Cons: They run 24/7, not just on demand, so tend to be larger, heavier, and costlier than off-line units. Lifetime may not be as long, but typically better internal components are used to offset the continuous duty cycle so they end up lasting as long or longer than comparably-rated off-line units -- for much higher cost, of course. They run warmer as well. That is likely a minor issue but they may require more attention in placement to allow adequate ventilation. Better units will allow hot-swapping of the battery, and server-grade units typically use two or more batteries to keep running even if the power should fail during battery replacement. This is also true of most server-grade off-line units.

HTH - Don

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post #8 of 13 Old 09-14-2015, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post
If the power supply in a component does not have enough charge storage (capacitance) to keep it working during a brief outage until an off-line UPS switches over, and/or not enough line isolation to reject noise spikes and these short glitches before the UPS takes over, then you can get flickers as you see. And may hear pops in your speakers, see lights flicker, etc. If the voltage drops out long enough that a component like your TV has to restart then you may see a longer interruption until the picture comes back. The power was switched quickly, but the TV sensed it went away and started shutting down, then had to start up again. Manufacturers will use the cheapest power supply they can get away with so this may not be uncommon.
That was fantastic!!

I have been searching around, talking to people, and jumping from forum to forum trying to make sense of what was happening and link my observations to see if the "theory makes sense". One of the issues which i didn't mention - My AVR and PC both behaved fine. No pops from speakers or restarts of either, nor any peculiar weird behavior by either the PC or the AVR. Although being a receiver, it has a fairly decent PSU - Marantz SR7005. I had the feeling it has to be my PSU and the capacitance used, but wasn't sure. Hence went fishing and I ended up getting some theory that usually left something unexplained, or the easy answer being "just use an online UPS", or even build a generator in the basement, but never a complete reasoning as to why I might be facing the issues. So if one cant explain my issues and link it with observations, then the theory is flawed.

Thanks for that Don. Makes sense!! Explains most of my problems.


I have two more questions. Hope you can help me with that.
1. Will daisy chaining UPS cause any issues?
I searched around with no clear answers or reasons. Daisy chaining meaning - The first UPS is a full house unit which powers everything except refrigerators, iron machine and motors. The second UPS (Line Inverter) is for my sensitive electronic equipment like display, receiver and PC. The second unit is plugged into the wall, which is supplied with power coming through the first UPS. I might have to do some crazy external wiring if I have to skip the first UPS and connect the second UPS directly to mains power.

2. I am trying to understand why this below issue is occurring.
One other problem that I face is, when the first UPS goes to battery, at times the second unit jumps from its battery to mains and back regularly. When the second unit comes back from battery to its mains, the display flickers.
(a). I think, when second UPS goes back to its mains, there is an instantaneous higher current draw seen at the first UPS which is still on its battery. The second UPS, just jumped from battery to mains, but its mains the first UPS being on a battery - could not supply the instantaneous higher current draw (maybe not enough juice left in the battery). But again, this instantaneous higher current draw is not one similar to one which is seen when devices are switched on, these devices are already on and drawing more or less constant current.
(b). Is my solution to this, connecting the second UPS directly to the main power instead going through the home UPS unit. This way when the UPS goes back to mains, the mains has the capacity to feed the instantaneous current draw, which my battery driven UPS may not be able to. Am I right here?

With daisy chaining, I might be fine if there is an efficiency issue with daisy chaining. But safety, well...

Last edited by ShaQBlogs; 09-14-2015 at 10:22 AM.
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post #9 of 13 Old 09-14-2015, 12:46 PM
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Thanks. Back at work, so only brief responses this time:

1. Most UPS manufacturers say not to daisy chain, mainly because there is no benefit and you are just draining two batteries in stead of one. In your case, with a "global" whole-hpouse UPS, you have no choice so don't worry about it. The only reason would be to eliminate the switchover time of an off-line UPS.

2. I didn't quite follow (trying to read quickly), but there is switchover time in both directions so you can have short glitches as you transfer to and away from the inverter in an off-line system. There can also be other things glitching in the house when the whole-house unit switches, or when power glitches and things not on the UPS power cycle. If you use an on-line UPS then you should be OK no matter what else glitches on its input.

HTH - Don

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post #10 of 13 Old 09-16-2015, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks!
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post #11 of 13 Old 10-26-2015, 10:33 PM
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Ups

Hello, I have just bought a new Marantz SR7010 receiver and live in India as well.

What Model UPS do you recommend?
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post #12 of 13 Old 11-05-2015, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by capaxity View Post
Hello, I have just bought a new Marantz SR7010 receiver and live in India as well.

What Model UPS do you recommend?
APC BR1500G-IN UPS
http://www.apc.com/shop/in/en/produc...a/P-BR1500G-IN
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post #13 of 13 Old 11-06-2015, 07:09 AM
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Based on the previous posts, it sounds like power integrity in much of India is a serious issue, so it is more likely a better (cleaner) output is desirable since you could be running the equipment from it longer and/or more often. APC makes a line called SmartUPS that offers cleaner output (better sine wave approximation). I recently purchased a Cyberpower unit that is similar to the SmartUPS line, but with a little lower Wattage rating, for about 1/2 ~ 2/3 the cost of the APC unit. It is working so far. I have had several APC units fail recently so decided to try another brand just for grins.

The bigger issue is off-line vs. on-line UPS. Read the discussion above for the differences and to decide which is right for you. On-line models are much more expensive but do not have switchover delay, useful if power is very poor.

If a standard BackUPS will work, then Sanjay's advice is sound. I have the US version of that one and it is doing OK. I recently replaced the batteries in it and it is still going after 5+ years.

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